The Compleat 'Thorn Forest' (A Gift for AW)

Ken

Banned
Kind Benefactor
Joined
Dec 28, 2007
Messages
11,478
Reaction score
6,198
Location
AW. A very nice place!
Was cold
was rain
brought Jacob again
to the door
of the preacher

to trade his hunger
for the lash
and the Word.


No poet myself. So take this with a grain. To me, economy is always a consideration, even with poetry. Trimmed down you've got this:

Cold rain brought Jacob, again, (And this does emphasize again, which seems to be part of what you're after here.)
to preacher's door
to trade his hunger (illeration yes. contextually necessary?)
for the lash
and the Word. (article "the" preserved emphasizes what's integral)

I'm not suggesting you write like this. Poetry is much different than prose. But what applies to the later also applies to the former, in part. Just something to consider. You've got some really smart stuff here and fine imagery. Just could use some honing. That's all. No real criticism.
 
Last edited:

Sarita

carpe noctem
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 18, 2005
Messages
9,036
Reaction score
4,069
Location
Pennsylvania
William, the parallels between Part II and Part XIX are masterful. I immediately thought about the difference between a garden that Anna would cultivate vs. the orchards that were sick-sweet with rotting fruit. It seems to me that Anna plucked him from the dusty earth, where he had been since his youth, a crouching beast hungry-thin and beaten. This is, by far, my favorite installment. And it reminds me of how much I have to learn as a poet. So many rich layers to discover, here. Like digging in the dusty dirt to find the dog's skeleton. What else will we find?
 

William Haskins

poet
Kind Benefactor
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
29,097
Reaction score
8,846
Age
58
Website
www.poisonpen.net
thank you, sara. i've lost a lot of sleep to the question of how an extended metaphor functions in this type of work and finding a balance that works is a leap of faith.

i appreciate your comments.
 

Hanson

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 8, 2013
Messages
651
Reaction score
37
Location
is fraught with frosting
'Tis a courageous and perhaps more importantly, generous, project you are embarking upon, good sir.

Kudos.

(And maybe some Kang)
 

Stew21

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 2, 2006
Messages
27,651
Reaction score
9,136
Location
lost in headspace
Stew's commentary Part 4 (Parts XIII - XV)

Part XIII - Anna, Adjacent
I love the narrator’s voice of this one. The tone is honest with an underlying aspect of pain and or sorrow. I can’t necessarily point to how that is achieved, exactly. That I trust the narrator’s honesty, and gather the emotion he’s putting out without melodrama makes this a gentle narration. Only that the word choice, particularly in the first stanza sets emotional pace of this piece. Sadness and longing are so very human for our animal. It is similar in tone to the first 2 or 3 parts of this whole poem. That familiar voice is another thread pulling the reader through this work. That each poem can be distinct, yet the voice stays constant is very skillful. They belong together. And even as each piece has a different meter to underline its words, the narrator is constant (always in Jacob’s POV, even when he puts on voices for others (See: The Interview, Placed, and The Virtues of Work for other examples of voice changing but narrator staying constant).
Also, as a whole, I felt that Anna, Adjacent was another transitional poem. Perhaps it is the evolution, even in title, that Jacob is changing. The word Adjacent in the title is significant, too. Because it isn’t only proximity/distance/place but emotional too, and very self-aware, which perhaps Jacob hasn’t always been.
He was kept away
from her by day our meter is set up with the away/day rhyme
by dirt
by deed
and distance the alliteration here is important. It links the three words. Dirt – one of our earlier threads is back with this one. Deed – I like this word choice. It is by action and/or purpose. And Distance – physical separation. I also like the repeat of "by"
between house
and field– illustrating the distance or rather enforcing it
.....where his mind lay fallow “fallow” is a wonderful reinforcement as well, for one of the major themes in the whole work.
.....and his heart unhealed. His broken heart remains a constant, and perhaps this vulnerable, tender part of Jacob is what makes this poem so significant to the whole.

But by night
in the light - night and light call back the rhyme/meter set out in the first stanza. The tone (voice) can’t carry itself. It needs bones. The strong meter makes the bones. The rhyme punctuates natural music of the words.
that bathed the preacher
in his babbling madness - bathed and babbled - not only clever alliteration, but the words are elemental - water. We’ve seen William use water through this in other places. See part V.
a secret language
of glances danced - the rhyme followed by the alliteration of flickering and fugue gives this stanza momentum – the rhyme alliteration tactic of stanza one finds us again, and binds the whole.
between them in
the flickering fugue
of prayer and despair. I love that these poems aren’t “vignettes”, but rather whole chapters of a big story. This bit tells us what is coming: First with babbling madness, then “flickering fugue”. We know the preacher is ill without being told outright.

They fell into each other's arms
before they ever touched. That this last two lines stands alone, and that a closeness exists without words has told us exactly what we need. Jacob has an ally. Anna and Jacob are adjoined, have something in common. That’s never happened to Jacob before. He has always been just Jacob, fighting just Jacob’s battles (internal and external ones). Besides that significance for him, the words are really beautiful. This is tender, delicate, and intimate without physical intimacy. And Jacob’s focus moves from only self and gods and ghosts, but to another person. Anna makes Jacob more human than maybe he has ever been.


Part XIV - With Winter Come The Grippe
I’m afraid I’m going to get this one way wrong.
Two seasons hence,
from the bed beneath
the load-bearing beam - lovely use of so many Bs. And religion is back. Load-bearing beam surely sounds like a crucifix to me. (Maybe I am projecting that, and am overstepping again. I’ve mentioned before, the religion bits are sometimes difficult. Hopefully I got a lucky guess). It’s almost as though the alliteration forces the reader to pay attention to the words more closely. In this case, I think it’s a good lesson to other poets to draw attention to the important parts, signal significance, with an appropriate poetic device. It isn’t just about the words anymore. It’s their placement that is relevant. They are greater than the sum of their parts when they are combined in particularly poetic ways.
the preacher cried
like Christ: this nudges that crucifix idea more fully, for me. As well as “I thirst”.
I thirst!

It was Anna
who tended him
in the throes
of delirium,

when imaginal
demons swooped
like buzzards
at his fevered brow. Demons swooping like buzzards is again a Christ/man thing, which we’ve seen from the preacher all along. And I like that he is tormented. (which is probably more a commentary on myself than the poet). The visual aspect of this is still holding religion in focus, and when considering the Jacob POV of the narration, it makes perfect sense. We already know Jacob’s got a father/god/preacher complex. (though I’m not sure complex is the right word, to Jacob these are all manifestations of the same thing.)

She sang him to sleep;
he called her an angel. I think the preacher would have been relieved by the sight of an angel in all the swooping buzzard madness he is facing,
Anna politely disagreed.– That Anna denies him that comfort of an angel is not as self-deprecating as it is vindictive.
There is a bigger story for Anna, and this sets up the anticipation for me, that she is significant and we will learn more. For a short poem, this is moves the story into a new Act.



Part XV - Whispered Through a Cracked Oak Door
Run with me, Jacob!

Let us be swallowed
by shadows, entangled
in darkness to writhe - and these words set us up that she wants freedom, but being swallowed, entangled and writhing are hardly pleasant. She is dangerous, and she is taking him to a dangerous place.

under skies that brandish
the moon like a scythe. And Scythe – while a fantastic rhyme for writhe, is also dangerous. Anna’s proposition is a bit warped.
For such a short poem, it is very powerful. Asking him to run with her, but not toward a freedom, toward a tangled, danger. This recalls Part IV, which was also short, and featured being swallowed by strangling poisonous vines. The stanza breaks lend themselves to the words. The line breaks offer the pauses, the form is pushing the significant words to the forefront. In a piece this short, it is crucial, I think. The words have to carry a lot of weight when there are so few of them. The form seems to have balanced their load quite well.
 
Last edited:

CassandraW

Banned
Flounced
Kind Benefactor
Joined
Feb 18, 2012
Messages
24,012
Reaction score
6,476
Location
.
Anna politely disagreed.– That Anna denies him that comfort of an angel is not as self-deprecating as it is vindictive.
There is a bigger story for Anna, and this sets up the anticipation for me, that she is significant and we will learn more. For a short poem, this is moves the story into a new Act.



Let us be swallowed
by shadows, entangled
in darkness to writhe - and these words set us up that she wants freedom, but being swallowed, entangled and writhing are hardly pleasant. She is dangerous, and she is taking him to a dangerous place.

under skies that brandish
the moon like a scythe. And Scythe – while a fantastic rhyme for writhe, is also dangerous. Anna’s proposition is a bit warped.
For such a short poem, it is very powerful. Asking him to run with her, but not toward a freedom, toward a tangled, danger.


I had a similar reaction to Anna, especially when I hit the "politely disagreed" line.

We're warned up front that Jacob is not home. That, along with the lines Stew cites, leads me to think that Anna, whatever she might be for Jacob in the short term, is not going to bring Jacob to a place of rest and comfort in the long term.
 

Stew21

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 2, 2006
Messages
27,651
Reaction score
9,136
Location
lost in headspace
I feel as if i am watching Eve eat the apple.
The fucked up Eden and temptation and evil. The light and dark, and wasn't he better off in the orchard like an animal? It all goes ti Hell (and hell freezes) as soon as Jacob is made to reconcile with a god he only knows as wrathful.

I do have a question. The cracked oak door Anna whispers through. It is significant and important, I know, and almost commented on it, but wasn't sure what to say. Can you give me a clue?
 

CassandraW

Banned
Flounced
Kind Benefactor
Joined
Feb 18, 2012
Messages
24,012
Reaction score
6,476
Location
.
I always think of oak as representing strength (and/or courage) -- and cracks in it it would certainly detract from those qualities. And of course, it's a door that (while it can open) is at that moment closed and keeping Jacob and Anna apart. So at first blush my thought was that the oak door represented the strong forces (e.g., the miserable institution they're in) keeping Jacob and Anna apart, while the cracks implied that they'd soon break through the barriers and, well, entangle in darkness to writhe. :D


ETA:

A google search brought up that the oak tree is also a symbol of conjugal fidelity and fulfillment, which has me wondering if that plays in at all. That, of course, would go against my sense of foreboding that Jacob and Anna are ultimately not headed for happiness and peace. On the other hand, this particular oak tree would have been cut down and used to make a door, which is now cracked, so perhaps it would work that way after all.

(Or maybe I'm a miserable pessimist and way off-base in my interpretation of all of it.)


Can I second Stew's request for you to weigh in, William?
 
Last edited:

William Haskins

poet
Kind Benefactor
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
29,097
Reaction score
8,846
Age
58
Website
www.poisonpen.net
first off, thank you, trish.

we spoke in PM, but i want to publicly acknowledge how much it means to me that you have taken your valuable time to turn this poem over in your head.

as for the door...

"cracked" is a reference to the door being only slightly opened. it is what divides them, but not completely, at least not so much that her invitation goes unheard.

having been crafted from oak, it is both nature and artifact -- or, to go further, it is nature co-opted and transformed by humans specifically as a means of shutting something, or someone, out.
 

Sarita

carpe noctem
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 18, 2005
Messages
9,036
Reaction score
4,069
Location
Pennsylvania
...where his mind lay fallow “fallow” is a wonderful reinforcement as well, for one of the major themes in the whole work.
.....and his heart unhealed. His broken heart remains a constant, and perhaps this vulnerable, tender part of Jacob is what makes this poem so significant to the whole.
Exactly my thoughts on these lines. The word fallow (and many words throughout!) drag me back to the beginning, as I said upthread, to Jacob being in the dusty dirt.

William, you may feel it a struggle to maintain the metaphor, but you're accomplishing it quite beautifully.
 

CassandraW

Banned
Flounced
Kind Benefactor
Joined
Feb 18, 2012
Messages
24,012
Reaction score
6,476
Location
.
*makes mental note not to purchase turnip-colored lipstick*
 

Stew21

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 2, 2006
Messages
27,651
Reaction score
9,136
Location
lost in headspace
Working on the next part today. It's been on my mind for days. The words of some of these poems follow me around, and others land in my head unbidden. I'm convinced it has bewitched me. I didn't know you were a spellcaster, William. I'm not complaining, I've had far worse things on continuous loop in my brain.
4 poems left and I will catch up to you. I'm not sure how I feel about that. In any case, i am anxious to dive in.
 

Stew21

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 2, 2006
Messages
27,651
Reaction score
9,136
Location
lost in headspace
Stew Commentary. (Part XVI of Thorn Forest)

When I first read this poem, it was with much anticipation. From where we left on in Part XV, we know Jacob is going to be free, in some sense of the word, with no father, no preacher, and no yoke. I wanted that for him, and to see where Anna would lead him so approached the poem, though guardedly, with a sense of excitement. You’ll see, when you read it, that the word choice put me rightly in my place. The dread I felt after reading it means the poem worked, did what it was supposed to do, said what it was supposed to say, and moves Jacob to a danger I had hoped he would avoid. That’s my emotional investment. Knowing we won’t go happily, I still want it.

PART XVI
Into the Small Hours

Guided by that
sliver of moon, for me, the word sliver is not only a visual description of the moon, but an emotional one as well - perhaps because it goes so well with “scythe” in the previous poem, and the act of cutting something into slivers. I’m not sure. A sliver of moon is not bright, barely puts off light, so that he is guided by it, gives me the opportunity to assign that guidance to something more than sight. 6 words, people. It took 6 words.

hand in trembling
hand they ran

through frozen I like that it’s cold now. The elements in Jacob’s world have been quite harsh since he left the orchard.
fields and canebrakes

into the
snarling brambles – if you don’t love the use of the word snarling here, then you aren’t reading it closely enough. Snarl is an animate word, an animalistic one, an instinct word, a defensive tactic. Jacob is not snared by the brambles, the brambles are snarling at him. They are something other than just a prickly tangled vine.

whose thorns
like concertina wire – oh yes. Make it steel, another cage. Another prison.
guarded the
forest edge. And again, it is the forest being protected. The thorns are guarding the forest. So they are snarling and guarding. And now I had to ask, “Guarding from what/whom?

Down the ever- another subtle but interesting word choice.
narrowing path, this is where I started to get nervous, claustrophobic. The options are few.

through the crumbling
brush beneath

naked trees that
clawed the sky the use of adjectives makes the particular poem stand out from many of the others. I said before, adjectives have to serve a specific purpose in poetry. Choosing to use one, then choosing the right one makes the difference between a good poem and a bad one, quite decidedly. We are not in Kansas anymore, Toto.

onto the
frigid train tracks – again the cold, and the steel. And there’s only one direction to go. Jacob’s “freedom” is already restricted, and in a very cruel way. Man-made and natural.

their breath
like locomotive steam
gilded the
trestle ledge. The reinforcement of the train, and the cold. This is not a pleasant escape. This is dangerous.
When I first read this, I had a bit of vertigo by the time they got to the train trestle. And yet, still something of hope is hiding here. There is escape, they are hand in hand. And Jacob’s battle with what man made and what his God made continues.
 
Last edited:

Stew21

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 2, 2006
Messages
27,651
Reaction score
9,136
Location
lost in headspace
Stew's commentary 5.1

Part XVII - The Transmutation of Jacob
Can Transmutation be a better word? My goodness. After seeing Jacob be boy and beast, I was intrigued by what he would be next.

At the far end
of the bridge
breaks a path
that doubles back
beneath the ancient
timber beams,
into a jagged
staircase that
descends the
bayou bank. The B alliteration is fantastic. It’s freezing outside…bbbb. J Also, ancient timber beams reminded me of the load bearing beam in the preachers house, and again of man-made/god-made. And descends. Still heading downward. That it is a staircase that doubles back seems a downward spiral to me, and I think that image is evocative and entirely appropriate here. Jacob had another staircase once; it was a hopeful one when he escaped the first time. It went up. (Jacob’s Ladder)

It was here
that Anna, so
sure of foot
and wicked, she knows exactly what she’s doing. Is anyone else getting more than a little wary of Anna?
led him to
the water's edge, and water has found its way back into the story.
where the thinnest
hint of frost encased – thinnest hint – may not seem like a whole lot of word play, but the sound of the words – especially the sounds of the two words together, has a great effect on me here. Again, it sounds cold. Like the B alliteration, the “in” feels frozen and breakable here.
the leaves
the reeds
the weeds. I love this – the rhyme, the cadence, the pace of it, and also, that the rhyme signals the importance. The way they are lined up just so, the words feel as if they are spiraling downward. And in a sense, they are, each is lower than the next. And each is a bit less pleasant.

She made for him a fire
and made him fire beside it, thus: I like the play with the word fire and it’s dual meanings. This is clever word play. It’s also the introduction of another element. That he has descended into fire isn’t lost.

Jacob the Beast was made Man. The transmutation is complete. I love that Beast and Man are capitalized. And it makes me want to know more.
 
Last edited:

Ken

Banned
Kind Benefactor
Joined
Dec 28, 2007
Messages
11,478
Reaction score
6,198
Location
AW. A very nice place!
smart orchestration
kinda get what you're doing, in general
must've taken you awhile to figure out how