why post in aw chapbook when you can get feedback from poetry critique
- Thread starter jaus tail
- Start date
I said I was going to get back to this a couple weeks ago, and then I never did. I needed some time to think about it and to let my frustration rise to the top so I could skim it off before posting.
Keep in mind also, that this is my opinion regarding critique and posting and other forum activity. I'm not changing anything, but want you to see it the way I do.
This might be a long post, but I believe it is an important one.
First, a couple of questions:
1)How many of you use the critique forum because you want to keep your work password protected with the intention of submitting it for publication? Do you use the comments and crits you receive to improve your work, develop your skill so your work is submit-ready?
2) How many of you use the critique forum, with no intention of publishing, but merely to have it where the other poets will see it and comment?
If you answered yes to the second question, then you are using the forum wrong.
I know, I know...I can already see the protest rising. The words are right on the tips of your tongues. "But...but that's where people comment, that's where all the poets who post regularly are hanging out." Ex: That's where I comment on others' work (the obligatory nitpick comment, the "this is nice; I like it" comments), so that's where they reciprocate."
Guess what? If everyone who isn't seeking password protection for publishing reasons posts on the main forum page, and everyone pays attention to what others post there, you can have the same conversations, a bigger audience because the posts will show up in "new threads" searches, and the continuing comments will get those bumped, noticed and read.
If you aren't submitting for publication, and AW is your audience, why are you hiding your work from the majority of the AW population?
Did you know that if you stay in the crit room without venturing out that you miss things like CONTESTS, thoughtful poetry discussions, games, and the gorgeous work in progress called Thorn Forest? It's true. You are missing all those things.
What I'd like to see is a more genuine concerted effort to provide feedback. I'd also like to see people posting where their work will be seen by a larger AW population. You'd be surprised; when we had it that way before, we had a delightful crowd of non-poets who came to read and comment regularly. Wouldn't it be nice to have an opinion of your work from someone who doesn't write poetry? Someone who is coming to your work with fresh eyes?
As for what "qualifies" as a crit. Well, we've never set up rules regarding what qualifies as a crit. To be honest, we shouldn't have to. If you post in the main forum, and people respond and provide feedback, it doesn't really have to be "critical", does it? No obligatory nitpicks so you can post your next poem with a clean conscience required. Be courteous and respectful of one another. Engage in conversation that goes deeper than what word you would cut if you had written the poem. Talk about the language. Let your comments encourage others, tell them what you think the "good parts" are, ask them a question about the particular style. Have FUN! Get to know the other poets, let people who read poetry but don't write it read yours! It's a community. Treat it like one. What I expect is that you will comment sincerely and with others' work and best interests in mind.
Last night I had a wild idea that I would have AW Admin lock the crit room for a day then reopen it with a note that unless you needed to workshop prior to submitting for publication then you shouldn't be posting in there. I figured the only way to get you to notice was if you couldn't get in. Don't roll your eyes. You know it's true.
Of course I would never do that.
Just open your eyes to the possibility that if you all step out of the dark password protected corner together, that it won't be so scary, you will still have your feedback and still be with your friends who are safe company. You might also get more views, more comments, more READERS, get new ideas, play a game, join a contest. You know, community stuff.
To no one in particular, to the general population of poets: It isn't all about you. It's about all of us and our poetry. Come out in the open. It's amazing what you can learn and do when you don't feel like you have to comment. It's amazing what you can learn and do when you open yourself up for deeper,more engaging conversation.
(and since I know this conversation is taking place on the main forum page, I will copy this post into its own thread in the poetry crit room, too, which is very much like turning on a tv in the kitchen so you don't miss any of the game when you grab another beer).
So there you go. That's what I think!
Keep in mind also, that this is my opinion regarding critique and posting and other forum activity. I'm not changing anything, but want you to see it the way I do.
This might be a long post, but I believe it is an important one.
First, a couple of questions:
1)How many of you use the critique forum because you want to keep your work password protected with the intention of submitting it for publication? Do you use the comments and crits you receive to improve your work, develop your skill so your work is submit-ready?
2) How many of you use the critique forum, with no intention of publishing, but merely to have it where the other poets will see it and comment?
If you answered yes to the second question, then you are using the forum wrong.
I know, I know...I can already see the protest rising. The words are right on the tips of your tongues. "But...but that's where people comment, that's where all the poets who post regularly are hanging out." Ex: That's where I comment on others' work (the obligatory nitpick comment, the "this is nice; I like it" comments), so that's where they reciprocate."
Guess what? If everyone who isn't seeking password protection for publishing reasons posts on the main forum page, and everyone pays attention to what others post there, you can have the same conversations, a bigger audience because the posts will show up in "new threads" searches, and the continuing comments will get those bumped, noticed and read.
If you aren't submitting for publication, and AW is your audience, why are you hiding your work from the majority of the AW population?
Did you know that if you stay in the crit room without venturing out that you miss things like CONTESTS, thoughtful poetry discussions, games, and the gorgeous work in progress called Thorn Forest? It's true. You are missing all those things.
What I'd like to see is a more genuine concerted effort to provide feedback. I'd also like to see people posting where their work will be seen by a larger AW population. You'd be surprised; when we had it that way before, we had a delightful crowd of non-poets who came to read and comment regularly. Wouldn't it be nice to have an opinion of your work from someone who doesn't write poetry? Someone who is coming to your work with fresh eyes?
As for what "qualifies" as a crit. Well, we've never set up rules regarding what qualifies as a crit. To be honest, we shouldn't have to. If you post in the main forum, and people respond and provide feedback, it doesn't really have to be "critical", does it? No obligatory nitpicks so you can post your next poem with a clean conscience required. Be courteous and respectful of one another. Engage in conversation that goes deeper than what word you would cut if you had written the poem. Talk about the language. Let your comments encourage others, tell them what you think the "good parts" are, ask them a question about the particular style. Have FUN! Get to know the other poets, let people who read poetry but don't write it read yours! It's a community. Treat it like one. What I expect is that you will comment sincerely and with others' work and best interests in mind.
Last night I had a wild idea that I would have AW Admin lock the crit room for a day then reopen it with a note that unless you needed to workshop prior to submitting for publication then you shouldn't be posting in there. I figured the only way to get you to notice was if you couldn't get in. Don't roll your eyes. You know it's true.
Of course I would never do that.
Just open your eyes to the possibility that if you all step out of the dark password protected corner together, that it won't be so scary, you will still have your feedback and still be with your friends who are safe company. You might also get more views, more comments, more READERS, get new ideas, play a game, join a contest. You know, community stuff.
To no one in particular, to the general population of poets: It isn't all about you. It's about all of us and our poetry. Come out in the open. It's amazing what you can learn and do when you don't feel like you have to comment. It's amazing what you can learn and do when you open yourself up for deeper,more engaging conversation.
(and since I know this conversation is taking place on the main forum page, I will copy this post into its own thread in the poetry crit room, too, which is very much like turning on a tv in the kitchen so you don't miss any of the game when you grab another beer).
So there you go. That's what I think!
Last edited:
Hi Stew, thanks for taking the time and heart to lay all this out for everyone.
I post poems primarily in the crit room because I want critiques from other poets. I don't submit for publication at this time (though I may decide to), but I do most definitely use and benefit from the crits. I hope this remains available.
I also post poems in other places on AW (though not real often) and I have posted several pieces in the non-password poetry area. I would love more engagement with the larger AW community around poetry, and I do what I can to encourage that. I kind of think limiting the crit room in the way you considered wouldn't help encourage wider participation in the non-crit rooms, though. And, I'm not sure what would!
I have been having a few conversations here and there, about poetry, in the lead up to this review contest. I'd hoped to encourage participation but I found I was in danger of pushing people, which pisses them off and makes them go away (if they're anything like me.
) I've been very interested in trying to understand what the resistance to poetry is, why people don't feel they are able to engage with it or discuss it much. There's a big barrier there and I am not sure what it is! (There have been two really juicy threads here recently about poetry and its place in the culture and why it seems so out of touch and out of reach to so many.... No one seems able really to conclude, finally, why that is, but it's a big challenge.)
And so here is a third juicy conversation about this general issue -- perhaps we'll get some movement toward more participation as we keep bringing this up.
I post poems primarily in the crit room because I want critiques from other poets. I don't submit for publication at this time (though I may decide to), but I do most definitely use and benefit from the crits. I hope this remains available.
I also post poems in other places on AW (though not real often) and I have posted several pieces in the non-password poetry area. I would love more engagement with the larger AW community around poetry, and I do what I can to encourage that. I kind of think limiting the crit room in the way you considered wouldn't help encourage wider participation in the non-crit rooms, though. And, I'm not sure what would!
I have been having a few conversations here and there, about poetry, in the lead up to this review contest. I'd hoped to encourage participation but I found I was in danger of pushing people, which pisses them off and makes them go away (if they're anything like me.
) I've been very interested in trying to understand what the resistance to poetry is, why people don't feel they are able to engage with it or discuss it much. There's a big barrier there and I am not sure what it is! (There have been two really juicy threads here recently about poetry and its place in the culture and why it seems so out of touch and out of reach to so many.... No one seems able really to conclude, finally, why that is, but it's a big challenge.)And so here is a third juicy conversation about this general issue -- perhaps we'll get some movement toward more participation as we keep bringing this up.
Don't misunderstand. I hope I was clear. I'm not locking up or changing anything. I would just like to see us venture outside the password walls. And we all have to make a commitment to it, or it won't work.
I'd just like folks to be aware of poems on the main page and to have or crits and comments there when we can (when publication isn't on the table).
I'd just like folks to be aware of poems on the main page and to have or crits and comments there when we can (when publication isn't on the table).
I did an experiment a couple months ago. I posted a poem on the main page. No comment. I moved it to crit, and got several. It was as I had suspected. Most of our crit folks stay there. They don't have to, nor do most of them need to. The same feedback can happen out in the open. We just have to make an effort to look outside the secret door.
Most people (on AW, anyway) read and write prose every day, for business and for pleasure, so they feel competent to understand and judge it.
With poetry, however, many people are only exposed to it in smarmy greeting cards and school. (And the latter isn't always a very fun experience.) In other words, either bad stuff, or good stuff they associate with compulsion, hard work, and having their impressions evaluated and judged. It's not an everyday thing, so there's a lot more apprehension in approaching it.
And hey, I get it. I have read and written poetry for many years. But I've grown accustomed to keeping it as a private pleasure; I no longer have anyone in my real life to share it with. Perhaps for that reason, I still feel a little shy about critting here. I only know a couple of you well so far, and I'm still half afraid I'll either trod on someone's toes or bore them to tears with my commentary. And that's from someone who isn't afraid of poetry! I'm not shy in general, so I'll relax a bit once I get a better feel for you all and for what's done and not done in crits around here.
A few of my friends from other forums have ventured here to read the two poems I've posted so far. Most of them sent me their reactions privately, and headed with "I'm not a poet, but I think..." And then proceeded to say something perfectly intelligent. They liked reading my stuff, had intelligent reactions to it, but were gun-shy about joining in a discussion -- even afraid they might offend me by doing so. (And these are people who spend all day exchanging joking insults with me in other threads!)
We spend lots of time in the Comedy Cabaret thread writing fun rhymes and poetic parodies, so I've tried to direct a couple of my cabaret friends to the poetry game threads here. So far no joy, though a couple of them enjoyed reading a bit of the haiku thread. I'm not giving up yet, since I think they'd love playing as much as I do if they gave it a shot.
And when we bring poetry out of the locked closet, i believe more will read and enjoy it, even if they don't comment much. Also, being able to comment with out the pressure of providing a "critique" may help. Mostly though. It's an audience, and they will get better at commenting when they see others do it.
You can talk about poetry all over AW but if you don't make the poetry accessible, it won't do any good. Not as long as it stays hidden.
I would challenge you all to post in the open waters, and to make an effort to comment there as well, on others' poetry. The traffic would do us all good.
You can talk about poetry all over AW but if you don't make the poetry accessible, it won't do any good. Not as long as it stays hidden.
I would challenge you all to post in the open waters, and to make an effort to comment there as well, on others' poetry. The traffic would do us all good.
Last edited: