Taking the Pi$$

I have a friend who writes in a certain genre. When her agent subbed to one publisher, they declined the offered book but she was offered the chance to write a book in a different sub-genre. She accepted the chance and wrote a book. In that case, the publisher liked it and signed a contract. It did increase her readership quite a bit and gave her the chance to try a new direction. While it turned out she really didn't like writing the new genre, she did feel it was worth the effort.

So yes, I have heard of that. Sorry it didn't work out for you though. Still, you do have a new book to sub out of the process, so that's something.

For illustrators, yes it is quite usual. They want to see if you might be right for some of their projects. But it's not just illustrators. I've auditioned before for a write for hire, wrote close to 10K, made it through three different levels and it was between me and someone else, and I didn't get the gig. At least you can use the pics in your portforlio, 10K of an unfinished book that wasn't your idea to begin with is pretty useless. It's frustrating, and it's a lot of work, but being in this business was never easy. Nor fair.

Please don't feel used. You auditioned, ultimately they weren't interested. That's my life as an actor in a nutshell. You put yourself out there and that's what you should be proud of. And who knows, maybe in the future a project will come up with that publisher and they'll remember your work and think you're perfect for it!

If they took your work and used it without paying you, then you would have a right to feel used and abused, and probably a right to legal action.

But it doesn't sound like you were poorly used any more than an actor who auditions, possibly multiple times, for a part he eventually doesn't get.

I don't see how you were used and abused. No one made you do anything. They simply didn't like your work. It works like this in every industry. This is what being self-employed means. You either provide work someone believes is worth paying for, or you don't get paid.

I. . .will venture out on a limb here and say that I might feel a bit used. Or at least, taken advantage of.

I don't think the comparison to an actor auditioning is quite apt...Actors do prepare, but usually they prepare several selections that they can use over and over again. (A ballad, an uptempo, a comedic number, etc.) Thus, their preparation time is rarely wasted. Sometimes, yes, they'll be asked to read sides from the script, but those are usually given out on the day of the audition. Also (and maybe I was just a shitty actor back when I did that?) but the length of time it takes to prepare chapters and illustrations is WAY longer than the time it took to prepare sides or scenes.

Not to say that no one ever wastes an actor's time! Unfortunately as others have noticed, it happens to many many artists, where the competition is fierce and many people are willing to work for free. I hope at least that there was something about the experience that you can benefit from Even if it's only this conversation and the fact that you have more knowledge about your feelings on this particular process, if anyone asks you to do the same thing again!

As a fellow actor, I must disagree with your representation. That isn't entirely accurate. Certainly if you are doing a general audition for a theatre company that is true, and often they will give you a script the day of as well. But if you are auditioning for television/film you have to memorise "sides" (scripts) that are unique to that project. Depending on the size of the role, that can be quite a lot of pages. I had to memorise 8 pages once and I had a week to do it because of the length. Only for commercials is there usually just the day before or day of. Then often actors hire acting coaches to help them with their sides, to make sure they are giving a truly quality performance. Then you have to make yourself look the part, so do your hair, your makeup, get dressed up. Depending where the audition is you might have a long distance to travel, sometimes you have to take a taxi if the location isn't near public transit, you might have to get time off from work to do it etc. So not only are you preparing for something that you will never need to use again, you are also spending money. I suppose you could argue it's still not comparable to the amount of time writing or illustrating takes, but I don't think that's fair. As an author I have never felt it took more work to write something for a written audition than for an acting audition. It's just different work.

So you could say it is wasted time and money auditioning like such. BUT. If you are a clever actor you realise that none of it is actually wasted. Yes you need to, as the saying goes, "spend money to make money", but more than that doing a good audition for a casting director or director herself can mean future auditions down the road. JUST LIKE illustrating for a publisher who rejects the work now might result in them requesting you down the road. Further you know that write for hire I wrote about auditioning for? Yesterday they asked if I'd be interested in trying for a different project. Now I have no time right now to do it, but they remembered me, my name came up in conversation. It wasn't just that they rejected me and it was a waste of time. It actually was more like an investment.

Another example, I recently was a reader for a casting director. This means I stay all afternoon and read opposite people who are auditioning for him. It's unpaid. It's a long day. But I did it. Why? Because a) I wanted to see the world from the other side of the camera, b) I wanted to show my acting chops to the casting director. And guess what? A week later he brought me in to audition for that same project. The investment paid off. It doesn't always. That's a risk we take. But that's kind of life in general.

Being in the arts is hard. We do a lot of work for many times little reward, and no it isn't fair. But that's what it is. Expecting some kind of straightforward, "I audition and get the job" kind of situation is not reasonable (and is a little selfish, you aren't the only one auditioning for things, if the idea is that you get this special treatment that if you put in the effort than you deserve the job, that means all the other people putting in the effort for the same job get a lesser treatment). So you can bemoan the fact that you should not have been rejected after you put all that time into it, or you can realise this is the game and decide if you want to play it or not.

Certainly as Myrealana said if they took your work and used it that would be taking advantage of you and that is wrong. But you knew you were auditioning. You knew it wasn't a sure thing. You decided to do it. That's what a lot of us do. If you want to see every effort you put in that doesn't succeed right away as a waste of your time, go for it. But remember, this isn't a short quick bank robbery. This is the long con. And there are others out there who get that.

Well I've already offered you evidence of multiple writers auditioning for a write for hire project that I auditioned for and didn't get. And I know others who have done similarly. Further, every time we write a novel that's an audition in a weird way. We put thousands and thousands of words on paper, we spend hundreds and hundreds of hours writing. And then we submit and hope that some publisher somewhere will publish our work. Is it a waste of time if no publisher decides to publish it? Is it sketchy?

And yes, you did say it was a waste of time:

It just sucks that artists in general regularly have their time wasted but that's seen as *ok*, even (judging from the last two comments) by those having their time wasted

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You do you. I'm just telling it like it is.

And btw, if you'd just said you were bummed about not getting the job that would be one thing, but you pretty much insinuated you were taken advantage of and that it pissed you off to have to do what basically most of us have had to do at one time or other. And that's why people responded to let you know it was pretty normal and that no one took advantage of you.

I'm sorry you didn't get the gig. Truly. I know how that feels. Trust me. I've auditioned as an actor and not got SO many gigs. I've done the same as an author. And I have 2 novels out there floating around that have been summarily rejected by a fair few publishers. I get how much that hurts. But is it a scam? Is it rude? Is it unjust? Not so much. Just sucky. And I totally can empathise with that.

It does suck, and I doubt it will ever change. Even artists who make a successful living often find themselves bombarded with requests to do extra work as a favor, often because friends and acquaintances don't understand that, say, making a video is hard.

But we have to draw boundaries and make choices. I have a day job, so I choose not to write on spec unless it's writing that I absolutely love and would do anyway. If it's my passion, I can accept the possibility of never being paid.

But if I were trying to make my fiction writing into a full-time job, I probably would take a chance on work for hire situations, for the reasons Toothpaste described. If you're in it for the long haul, trying to get this kind of work, getting your name out there may be crucial.

Stylo said:

You're right James, no one made me do it, but that doesn't mean I have to like how it made me feel! I have decided to stay true to my own ideas from now on, at least that way if one publisher passes another may be interested.
It just sucks that artists in general regularly have their time wasted but that's seen as *ok*, even (judging from the last two comments) by those having their time wasted. Perhaps this is because the industry is so competitive, but it's still shitty, IMO.

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It isn't just artists, and the time is not wasted. It works this way in every industry there is. How else would you have it work? If there's another option, if there's any other way of going about it, I have no idea what it would be? Do you really expect to be paid for work the client finds unacceptable? This might be great for artists, but it would shut any business down in short order.

Being self-employed means there is no paycheck unless you achieve the desired results, unless you give a client something that satisfies them, something they believe is good enough to make money. Publishing is a business just like any other, which means everything is about will it or won't it sell.

Most of us have been rejected in every possible way there is to be rejected. Most have novels that never sell anywhere, but this does not mean the time spent writing that novel was wasted. It's only wasted if you let it stop you from trying again.

Many of us have been rejected outside of writing, in any one of fifty businesses. If you think your time was wasted with this project, try coming up with a brand new product or invention.

If you want to work for yourself, whether it's being a writer, an illustrator, an inventor, or any startup business you can think of, chances are you'll be rejected over, and over, and over, and over.

You just can't take it personally. You were not rejected. One particular bit of work you did was rejected, not you.

James makes good points. And it's not just artists who deal with this, and not just the self-employed, but anyone in a competitive, desirable/"glamorous" profession with a limited number of slots.

This thread just inspired me to remember something I've tried to forget: applying for academic jobs. I have a PhD from a good school and wanted to teach in my field. Simple, right?

Each year for five years, I spent weeks researching jobs and writing up applications. I attended the Modern Language Association's annual convention, which cost me hundreds of dollars in travel, lodging, and membership fees, so I could interview for coveted tenure-track positions. I had four subsequent campus visits (over those years) at schools that were considering hiring me — the last phase of the "audition." For these, my expenses were paid, but I had to travel long distances and prepare a separate half-hour talk for each visit, which I then delivered to a largish audience with all the attendant stress. I went through dozens of meals and campus tours with prospective colleagues.

This was after spending eight years getting the degree and writing a 400-page dissertation.

I never got a "real" job offer. After a few years at a full-time temp position, I cut my losses and left the profession, and I couldn't be happier that I did. The turning point came when I was lamenting the job market to my advisor, and he said, "But you love your research, right? Enough to do it just for its own sake?"

I realized that no, I did not love academic research enough to do it for free while supporting myself with poorly paid adjunct work.

Now I'm paid for the work I do, and I don't work on spec unless it's fiction, which I never consider wasted effort because I love it. And I am so happy that I can submit my work from the comfort of my home at minimal cost.

The academic example is extreme: The humanities job market is generally acknowledged to be in a crisis (way, way too many PhDs). But wherever you have a position or gig that many people covet, I think there's going to be a lot of people going through a back-breaking audition or application process just for that shot.

ETA: I'm not saying you should be happy you got a shot and shut up. Everybody has a god-given right to grumble about life's vicissitudes as far as I'm concerned, and sometimes it does feel like life and the various powers that be are screwing us over. It's just a question of whether you're willing to accept a certain amount of being-screwed-over to get what you want. And that may depend on whether you're seeing long-term progress as the result of your efforts.

Stylo said:

If you think it's fair, that's fine, but I'm also entitled to my opinion

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I never said it was fair. I just said it wasn't not not fair either. It's neutral. Life's not fair, but it's also not unfair. It just is. My point was this is the biz. And it's up to you if you want to play the game or not.

(btw I never said you weren't entitled to your opinion, me stating mine doesn't negate yours. Believe it or not I was trying to make you feel a little better, a little less used. Trying to show you you aren't the only one going through this stuff)

As to the assumption that only artists have to put up with their time being wasted, seriously agree to disagree (I have a teacher friend right now volunteering at a school so he can get some experience. The principal says he'll write him a nice supportive letter, but he's not getting a job at that school and the letter is no guarantee either. But my friend is doing what he is doing because it helps his odds improve. But it's not like he's getting paid or getting a job immediately out of it.)


ETA: also what James and Fuchsia said (I have SO many friends going through that whole getting a job after a PhD thing. It has not been fun for them at all), no one is saying you have to put up with it, we're only saying you have to put up with it if you want to continue doing this job. Only you know what's worth your effort and time and what isn't.

Toothpaste said:

As a fellow actor, I must disagree with your representation. That isn't entirely accurate. Certainly if you are doing a general audition for a theatre company that is true, and often they will give you a script the day of as well. But if you are auditioning for television/film you have to memorise "sides" (scripts) that are unique to that project. Depending on the size of the role, that can be quite a lot of pages. I had to memorise 8 pages once and I had a week to do it because of the length. Only for commercials is there usually just the day before or day of. Then often actors hire acting coaches to help them with their sides, to make sure they are giving a truly quality performance. Then you have to make yourself look the part, so do your hair, your makeup, get dressed up. Depending where the audition is you might have a long distance to travel, sometimes you have to take a taxi if the location isn't near public transit, you might have to get time off from work to do it etc.

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I'm speaking from a theatre background in NYC, not film/tv in a place that's ... I dunno. I can't imagine a place far from public transportation here. I suppose you might be talking about LA? But a lot of people in LA end up feeling used and abused, at least from what I hear.

Regardless I have never in my life heard of a working actor hiring an acting coach for a specific audition, or doing crazy hair/makeup. Maybe Bway is just a wacky world though, I dunno.

Not sure why you're saying you "never in my life heard of a working actor hiring an acting coach" when I literally just told you I have and most people in the community here in Toronto do (and yes, our public transit system is not that great, so often in order to get to a studio or casting house one has to take a cab or you have to be on transit for a very long time - so it's a decision of give up half a work day of pay for an audition, or pay for a cab). I'm not lying, not sure what more to tell you. People here hire coaches all the time for big film/tv auditions. And any time I've had a big theatre audition (for say Stratford or Shaw), I've worked with a coach too. They don't do it for commercials or a walk on part or anything like that. But a big role? It happens often (not all the time, and if you are already well known it's not something you need to worry about as much). And if we don't pay for a coach, we will get together with our friends and have them help us out. So at least then it doesn't cost money, but it still costs time which was the biggest issue the OP had in this thread, the waste of time. But thanks for doubting me. Makes me feel awesome.

Backing away from this thread now.