Is this a valid criticism?

GiddyUpGo · Aug 5, 2012

I'm in the process of re-reading and processing a critique I got a few weeks ago. The critique was of the synopsis of my first novel. Most of it is pretty valid, some of it I think is a little unfair and a few parts just seem weird. This criticism in particular struck me as odd, but maybe she's right and I'm the one who has strange ideas.

Early on in the story I have two female characters (both in their early 20s) go swimming at the river. My critiquer seemed to find the idea of two girls swimming at the river to be borderline ridiculous, because in her mind 20-something year old girls would much rather be at a public pool where there are "cute waiters." Now I don't know what kind of public pools she has in her area, but I've never seen a cute waiter or any other kind of waiter at our public pool (maybe she meant lifeguards?) Our public pools are full of haggard looking not-in-the-best-shape parents and a lot of noisy kids, which is exactly the opposite of what I wanted in a swimming experience as a 20-something. When I was that age, we all swam at the river.

In this particular scene, the two girls are attacked at the swimming hole, which isn't something that would happen at a public pool. So if my critiquer is right and the swimming hole setting is absurd, I have to do some fairly significant rethinking and rewriting of that scene and its aftermath.

It just struck me as kind of an odd criticism, but maybe growing up near the river gave me different ideas about summer recreation. Would love to know if anyone else agrees or disagrees. Thanks!

Kerosene · Aug 5, 2012

I grew up around a major river, in the mountains, camping/hiking and fishing.

There used to be some awesome parties at the riverside and mostly, we'd swim. 20 somethings (I was younger, but I've always acted and looked over, even back then).

There was some places that we only knew about. Certain trails and such that we could do "other" things back in the forest at the slow riversides.
But this also meant the law was far away. This might be a good spot for your part.

As long as it's a slow bend in the river, where it's like a nice, shallow pool; I see no problem.

It's what people did for, what now? Since human existence? So I don't get what her problem is.

victoriakmartin · Aug 5, 2012

Your critiquer seems to have some very narrow-minded views of what 20-something year old girls do/what their priorities are.

As long as it is an established "place to swim" then I absolutely don't see anything wrong with that. People swim in rivers and lakes all the time.

I really would only maybe question the characters' choice if this was not a place where people, or at least the characters, usually swim, but your description makes it sound as if it's a normal occurrence. And even if it wasn't, it wouldn't be hard to give them a reason for going there.

Brightdreamer · Aug 5, 2012

I'd think it would depend on the characters, and the setting.

Two girls in the country, best friends, especially if they're their own little social group and don't like big, crowded public pools with screaming kids and dorky boys trying to impress them... sure.

Two city girls who love watching boys turn to mindless jelly when they show off their skin in those skimpy bikinis... not so likely.

ishtar'sgate · Aug 5, 2012

Sounds like an odd critique to me. A small town not far from us has a river running through it and tons of people - mostly 20 somethings - hang out down there most of the summer.

CrastersBabies · Aug 5, 2012

20-something girls would rather be at the public pool because of cute waiters? Ummm, that line right there would disqualify this person from ever critiquing my work again . . . unless of course, they're 12.

JMC2009 · Aug 5, 2012

Early 20's? Likely in college? Grab a few beers and and head somewhere where they could have some quiet girl talk? Why the hell not?

When I was in my early 20's, it was not unusual to find me out by the lake with my school books "studying" (ok, sleeping?) Every once in a while I'd take a dip.

Witch_turtle · Aug 5, 2012

Just thought I'd add my voice to the chorus saying no, that's not a valid crit. There is absolutely zero reason to question normal young women swimming in a normal river. I've known lots of people who do it.

KTC · Aug 5, 2012

i_paint_the_sky said:
Your critiquer seems to have some very narrow-minded views of what 20-something year old girls do/what their priorities are.

As long as it is an established "place to swim" then I absolutely don't see anything wrong with that. People swim in rivers and lakes all the time.

I really would only maybe question the characters' choice if this was not a place where people, or at least the characters, usually swim, but your description makes it sound as if it's a normal occurrence. And even if it wasn't, it wouldn't be hard to give them a reason for going there.

THIS

Your critiquer is putting herself too far into this. It's not about her. You have to be careful with critiquers who have such narrow-minded feedback.

GiddyUpGo · Aug 5, 2012

CrastersBabies said:
20-something girls would rather be at the public pool because of cute waiters? Ummm, that line right there would disqualify this person from ever critiquing my work again . . . unless of course, they're 12.

LOL, I know, that really had me scratching my head. She must have meant lifeguards. Unless they have waiters at public pools in Beverly Hills or something, but I've sure never heard of such a thing. Still, I personally think for the average 20-somthing the cute (employees) are rather canceled out by all the screaming children.

blacbird · Aug 5, 2012

Nope. Criticizing that detail and setting is nonsense, and so much so that it makes me question the validity of anything else the critiquer said. Most pertinently, it has nothing to do with your story, and everything to do with the critiquer's personal attitudes about the world. Makes me wonder if this person has ever been outdoors.

caw

jeffo20 · Aug 5, 2012

Sounds like she's thinking 'country club', not 'public pool'. And as I've never belonged to a country club, I don't even know if they have cute waiters or not. I guess they always do in the movies.

You know, even if they were the sort of girls who might be interested in checking out the guys at the pool, it's also possible they might want to just hang out once in a while without the pressures that go along with seeing and being seen.

Timmy V. · Aug 5, 2012

Chasing the Horizon · Aug 5, 2012

I'm 25 and swim in my local river 2-3 times a week. Public pools are disgusting, and no-one else ever uses the river. Especially when we're having flood conditions (my favorite time, lol).

Ignore weird critiques.

pandaponies · Aug 5, 2012

I'm a 22-year-old girl. My roommate (also a 22-year-old girl) and I drive out to swim in the river 20 minutes from our apartment (which has a pool with no waiters or lifeguards

). It's more private, the scenery is way prettier, moving current + rocks make it more interesting than a pool. I think you're good.

Libbie · Aug 5, 2012

I grew up swimming in irrigation canals right off the Snake River in Idaho, and as a teen and in my early twenties, I spent as much of each summer as I could skinny-dipping with my friends in Lake Cavanaugh, usually at night. I'd much rather swim in natural water than in a pool, no matter how cute the lifeguards may have been.

I wouldn't bat an eye at twenty-year-old girls swimming in a river.

Terie · Aug 5, 2012

You know what? Even if it were unusual for 20-something women to swim in a river (which is most definitively is NOT), it would be perfectly fine for your characters to do so if it's the sort of thing your characters would do. Not all people are the same, and this is especially true in fiction: we tend to write about people whose lives aren't the same hum-drum of real life.

Don't worry about it. Have your young ladies swim in the river. Unless there are crocs in it. Or even if there are crocs in it, if that's where the story is going.

frimble3 · Aug 5, 2012

I think this might have more to do with your critiquer. If she's a city/suburban girl, it may never have occured to her that people would swim in a river. Fish, or raft, maybe, but not swim.
That would fit in with the 'cute waiters', if she's thinking of 'public pool' as one at the country club, or spa or hotel, as opposed to a 'private pool' in one's own backyard. I suspect that over a certain social level, people don't go to 'public pools'.
For what it's worth, when I was a kid, we swam at the public pool or at the lake. Grown-ups and older teens sunbathed and splashed in the pools among the rocks at the base of the dam. There was even an alarm siren that went off before they opened the dam and send water crashing onto the rocks.
I'd disregard that part of the critique as a cultural difference, and concentrate on the useful bits.

Chasing the Horizon · Aug 5, 2012

frimble3 said:
If she's a city/suburban girl, it may never have occured to her that people would swim in a river.

This is a good point. City people have very different ideas than people like me who've spent our whole lives in rural America.

To me, it's totally normal to drive 10 minutes, pull my car into the dust at the side of the road, take a hidden trail down to the river, and swim with my car unlocked and all the windows down to keep it cool. I pick wild berries from along the back roads, still buy from some farmers who use the honor system (you know, a can for the money--no-one watching the fruit stand), and leave my garage door up while I go to the store. All this might seem strange to someone from the big city, but it's totally normal for my town.

James D. Macdonald · Aug 5, 2012

Take the parts of the critique that are useful to you and leave the rest.

Thank the critiquer sincerely.

You have one reader's reaction to your story, which is more than you had before.

SeanCordernay · Aug 5, 2012

Timmy V. said:
I'm wondering if maybe the critiquer read a description of the two girls before that section and perhaps the critiquer found the ensuing swim scene incongruous with the girls character as previously described.

That could be possible, but in the context given (what little there is), the critique seems kinda weird.

If the scene is pertinent to the story, then I advise you keep it in, despite that critique. If your still not sure, get a second opinion.

Quiessa · Aug 6, 2012

I lived by the sea in my early 20s and swam in it a couple of times a day in the summer; I only started using the public swimming pool instead after I swam into a jelly fish :/ So add me to the list of people saying 'of course they'd swim there!' (and the list of people feeling deprived at never having seen a cute waiter at the public pool

).

Timmy V. said:
I'm wondering if maybe the critiquer read a description of the two girls before that section and perhaps the critiquer found the ensuing swim scene incongruous with the girls character as previously described.

That's definitely worth considering; if you're happy it's in character for them to swim there then leave them there

katci13 · Aug 6, 2012

I say it's fine. Even if they're city girls. Definitely don't take it out and rewrite it based on one opinion. If you're worried about it, just make sure the girls have a reason to be there (even if it's just, they want some quiet time and it's hot). I'm in my 20s, live in the suburbs, I would never go to a public pool. It's crowded and noisy and nasty. I wouldn't swim in a river either, but that's because I'm a scaredy cat. I know quite a few people who do swim in rivers.

Or you can get a second opinion. But I don't think you need one. Your instincts had them in the river, that's where they should be.

I had a bad critique partner once. Would say strange things and then pick on the order of adjectives in a sentence. Like if I say, "green and red coat" she would literally pick at it and say it would be better if I said, "red and green coat." I'm so not joking. I had to dump her. You need a critique partner that works well with your personality and will still point out the problems and issues and things that truly don't make sense. I have a great critique partner now. (And she's also great at finding all that technical stuff too.)

And really, cute waiters, that's something a teenager would do. I did stuff like that when I was 13. (But these waiters were in restaurants at the mall, not the pool. And the lifeguards at the pool were not cute, either.)

gothicangel · Aug 6, 2012

I would be telling the critter to go jump in a river.

fireluxlou · Aug 6, 2012

Lol I live in a town and teenagers always swim in the river by the bridge. Usually in groups.

Is this a valid criticism?

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