CreateSpace, Lulu, LighteningSource...preferences?

Laer Carroll said:

. . .

. . .

Several people say their POD books have ended up in libraries. Really? Post a link to those libraries catalogs if so & tell us which books they are, please. I'm very doubtful. I'd love for this for my books, but I don't see any way that can happen for most libraries.

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A couple I published:

http://www.worldcat.org/title/there...ke-tahoe/oclc/864036820&referer=brief_results

http://www.worldcat.org/title/capit...-authors/oclc/225865638&referer=brief_results

And two from the odious PublishAmerica:

http://www.worldcat.org/title/serge...he-badge/oclc/781970702&referer=brief_results

http://www.worldcat.org/title/healing-house-a-memoir/oclc/179936455&referer=brief_results

There have to be countless more. Took me two minutes of off-the-top-of-my-head inquiries to find the ones above at WorldCat.org.

Added: Libraries shelve what is likely to be of interest to their own patrons. And they have limited shelf space. And of course acquisitions librarians keep an eye on reviews and recommendations in Library Journal, etc. Books without reviews in such periodicals are invisible to libraries. Books with local or niche interest have to be brought to the attention of the librarians in order to be considered.

--Ken

Literateparakeet said:

. . . So I would love your opinions. If you have seen books from different companies that would be great, but I would also be interested to know whom you used and if you were pleased with the quality (or not.) Any and all advice appreciated!

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Lulu is useful for some purposes, but its books are relatively expensive. Quality I've seen has been fine (and I have bought a couple thousand books from Lulu over the years). Their add-on services can be expensive. (Formatting, cover design, etc.) I used Lulu when I was getting started, and still have some books in print with Lulu. Now I use Lulu to produce preview copies, ARCs, and the like, for the convenience and lack of complications for those purposes.

Createspace can be an excellent option, in terms of cost, quality, and ease of use, but I've heard mixed reports on the quality of their add-on services. (One writer friend of mine gave up on their book interior formatting, although their cover design work turned out good.) I have a growing number of friends and colleagues (and some clients) who have used Createspace with good results.

Lightning Source is not for the one-off self-publisher. You have to jump through a lot of hoops for an account, and their technical requirements are beyond the resources of most self-publishers. (I had to spend about fifteen hundred dollars on new software in order to meet their technical requirements for text block and cover.) BUT see https://www1.ingramspark.com/ -- Ingram Spark -- which is designed for self-publishers.

Those comments reflect print-on-demand (digital printing). Offset printing (large print runs, typically of thousands of copies) gets into a whole other set of complications, although results can be on a par with the output of commercial publishers. (Consider www.deervalleypress.com and www.bridgehousebooks.com as examples.)

--Ken

I'm looking at CS, Lulu, and LS as options too, and this thread has been very helpful, thanks!



Actually, I was looking at CreateSpace and Lulu, but then on this site learned also about Lightening Source. Not sure which one I'll go with yet, but all the info on this thread has been really informative.

My husband is a historian, and my field is literature and writing. Together we're writing a historical fiction book (a two-book series, done research, writing Book 1) and he's writing a kind of shorter nonfiction "history book" on the same topic, and I'm editing that. The history book is almost finished and we've just started looking at publishing options.

No time for traditional publishing. We want the book published by the end of this year. Looked at AuthorHouse, iUniverse, and OutskirtsPress. AuthorHouse has many customer complaints, and takes too long. Still learning about iUniverse and OutskirtsPress, but an important element to us is that WE be in control of everything. Hence, looking now at CreateSpace, Lulu, and Lightening Source. (I did read on Outskirts Press website that the author owns all they're own royalties… though I'm not clear that author would have complete control. Sent them an email. Do NOT want a company telling us what our numbers are, want to know directly, and want our own Amazon page, etc..)

Ours is a very nitch audience, and we do want the POD resources, but the ebooks are our main market.

CreateSpace seems to only format to Kindle (yes, I understand they're both Amazon), but we also want ebooks for Nook and iPad. Lulu ebooks format for those too. Maybe we will use both CreateSpace and Lulu. From what I'm reading Lightening Source would maybe be better if we were doing more print books, so not sure it's necessary to pursue them.

Didn't know anything about any of this until I started looking online two days ago… lots of info out there! I'm really glad I found this forum, because simply going to each service's website one can get lost in all the sales pitches and it can be hard to see the hard facts underneath all that gloss

I also like the a la carte options I'm seeing with CreateSpace and Lulu (haven't looked yet at these for LS), and that makes these options even more appealing again over using a company like iUniverse or Outskirts Press. We don't need editing help, but maybe an a la carte option for helping to format the ebooks would be good.

I realize this thread is a few months old, mainly just saying it was helpful to read through, though if anyone has any additional advice, I'd be more than happy to hear!

AnnaPappenheim said:

Actually, I was looking at CreateSpace and Lulu, but then on this site learned also about Lightening Source. Not sure which one I'll go with yet, but all the info on this thread has been really informative.

. . . Looked at AuthorHouse, iUniverse, and OutskirtsPress. AuthorHouse has many customer complaints, and takes too long. Still learning about iUniverse and OutskirtsPress, but an important element to us is that WE be in control of everything. . . . if anyone has any additional advice, I'd be more than happy to hear!

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Avoid ALL of the Author Solutions brands (Author House and many more that they have gobbled up). You don't use them. They use you. ANY so-called publisher that ever invites aspiring writers to "become a published author" is to be avoided. That's a vanity press code phrase.

Lightning Source is a completely different animal. They do not offer/sell editing, design, formatting, or any of the rest of the expensive services sold by the vanity/subsidy presses.

If you want to be in control of everything, then start by reading one of the better books on self-publishing (Dan Poynter's is probably the most widely read). Do not use (or be used by) a subsidy/vanity press.

Look into IBPA. Look for a local affiliate and attend some meetings, with a view to possibly joining. Meet some experienced, accomplished self-publishers.

For an example of a writer of historical fiction who has published her own books with considerable success, see www.bridgehousebooks.com (Naida West). Naida has strong views about publishing, and the experience to back them up.

I hope these comments are helpful.

[Edited to add: for ebooks, look into www.bookbaby.com . Also, note that IBPA membership gets you discounts at Lightning Source and, I believe, BookBaby.]

--Ken

Ken speaks the truth. Listen to him.

Literateparakeet said:

For ebooks for Nook and iPad, I use Smashwords. They distribute to several people...Barnes and Noble, Kobo, etc.

Some people use Draft2Digital.

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Thank you! I will look both of these up.

ResearchGuy said:

Avoid ALL of the Author Solutions brands (Author House and many more that they have gobbled up). You don't use them. They use you. ANY so-called publisher that ever invites aspiring writers to "become a published author" is to be avoided. That's a vanity press code phrase.

Lightning Source is a completely different animal. They do not offer/sell editing, design, formatting, or any of the rest of the expensive services sold by the vanity/subsidy presses.

If you want to be in control of everything, then start by reading one of the better books on self-publishing (Dan Poynter's is probably the most widely read). Do not use (or be used by) a subsidy/vanity press.

Look into IBPA. Look for a local affiliate and attend some meetings, with a view to possibly joining. Meet some experienced, accomplished self-publishers.

For an example of a writer of historical fiction who has published her own books with considerable success, see www.bridgehousebooks.com (Naida West). Naida has strong views about publishing, and the experience to back them up.

I hope these comments are helpful.

[Edited to add: for ebooks, look into www.bookbaby.com . Also, note that IBPA membership gets you discounts at Lightning Source and, I believe, BookBaby.]

--Ken

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Yes, thank you, your comments were very helpful!

I am actually reading Don Poytner's Self-Publishing Manual right now... About 200 pages in and finding it very informative. Also reading The Fine Print of Self-Publishing, by Mark Levine. Seems to compliment the other book well, in part because it is more current.

I have entirely ruled out AuthorHouse and iUniverse, thanks to reading through this forum and the two above books. I want to be in control, not to have someone else calling the shots. Still not entirely sure what Outskirts Press is... They seem to give more control to the author, but still, it's not *complete* control. Have ruled them out as well.

Have read up more on LighteningSource too. Seems like something I would use if a substantial amount of print books are needed. Most likely I will use CreateSpace and Lulu.

Thank you for the links! I have them saved on my computer. The historical fiction author is interesting; will read up on her too.

Thanks again!

Old Hack said:

Ken speaks the truth. Listen to him.

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Thank you, will do!

By the way, I like your kitty avatar. Is he wearing a thunder shirt?

I've seen a few books from Outskirts. I'm pretty sure they're a vanity press too; and the quality wasn't that good, from what I remember. I wouldn't take that route.

My cat, Mabel, is wearing a nylon sock in my avatar. She had a wound on her tummy and it was meant to stop her licking at it. I thought it made her look like a spy-cat. She is a very lovely girl.

Old Hack said:

I've seen a few books from Outskirts. I'm pretty sure they're a vanity press too; and the quality wasn't that good, from what I remember. I wouldn't take that route.

My cat, Mabel, is wearing a nylon sock in my avatar. She had a wound on her tummy and it was meant to stop her licking at it. I thought it made her look like a spy-cat. She is a very lovely girl.

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She is really lovely! Her face and ears are more exotic looking for a house cat, almost like a wild cat. So the spy cat look suits her!

I wrote Outskirts an email about a week ago, but wasn't overly happy with the response. It wasn't well-written! Methinks a publishing company should have well-written correspondence Also, some of my more important questions weren't answered in the response, and from that, well, I guess I got my answer!

I started on Lulu in '06, selling my first collection of poetry. I did pretty much a collection every year through '11.

The more time I've spent on Lulu, the less I've liked it. And now, the combination of the facts that a) I've had a decreased output of poetry and b) the fact that I can't design for epub worth a damn (all of my skill is in designing for print) means that I've kind of shied away from Lulu.

So I'll keep my eyes on this thread. Really thinking of taking a look at CreateSpace now.

ZachJPayne said:

I started on Lulu in '06, selling my first collection of poetry. I did pretty much a collection every year through '11.

The more time I've spent on Lulu, the less I've liked it. And now, the combination of the facts that a) I've had a decreased output of poetry and b) the fact that I can't design for epub worth a damn (all of my skill is in designing for print) means that I've kind of shied away from Lulu.

So I'll keep my eyes on this thread. Really thinking of taking a look at CreateSpace now.

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Are there other reasons you've learned to dislike Lulu? I know you listed two, I'd just like to know if there's more. I'm trying to figure out how/where to publish, and was considering using both CreateSpace and Lulu together.

AnnaPappenheim said:

. . .
Have read up more on LighteningSource too. Seems like something I would use if a substantial amount of print books are needed. . . .

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Also look into IngramSpark, an alternative to LS, perhaps more practical for self-publishing authors.

--Ken

I've used Createspace for my self-published paperbacks. My husband does the files and uploading for me. He found it easy to use. I like the quality of the books. My only complaint is the flimsy covers.

One thing that really impressed me was when they lost my last order. It was a large order so I was a little upset. I contacted them and without asking any questions they sent out a replacement order right away at no extra cost.

I've been working with Ingram Spark, which is LS's program for indie authors. It's great if you read all the guides and submit to their specifications, but designing my own cover art and being inexperienced in print procedures, I had to go through several revisions and resubmissions. Their distribution channels are great, but the problem I've had is that, for the hardcover, if I want to sell with a 55% discount to retailers (which is industry standard and pretty much the only acceptable way to get into B&N, etc), I'd have to list the cover price at something like 28.99, which is absolutely ridiculous. I opted to go 40% at 23.99, and that's the best I could do without owing Ingram money for every copy, because the print cost is something like $13. Even so, I'll only make a little over a dollar for every copy, and most brick-and-morter stores likely won't stock any because of the 40% discount. But it'll be in all the systems, and I can walk into a B&N and order a copy through them. So I guess there's that.
The paperback is much cheaper to print, and I'll probably be able to list it at 13.99 with a 55% discount and get away with it.
Just got a proof copy in yesterday, though, and I'm fairly satisfied by the overall quality of the print.

I've heard really good things about CreateSpace, but I've only seen two physical books of theirs. One of those is sitting in front of me right now. I'm supposed to do a review for the author. And while I like the paper, the layout and the feel of the book (though the cover is generic), what I'm taken aback by is the type.

This book looks like it was printed with a fifteen-year old ink jet printer. It's not terrible, and if it were a high school essay or even a university term paper, I wouldn't mind. But for a book that is offered for sale, I consider it disappointing. The type lacks crispness, and when you look closely (I don't have the best eyesight), the lettering looks striated. I don't recall this problem with the other CS book I saw, so I don't know how common it is, but I've never seen a trade paperback with print quality this poor.

ResearchGuy said:

Also look into IngramSpark, an alternative to LS, perhaps more practical for self-publishing authors.

--Ken

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Thank you! Yes, I noticed that when I went to the LS website, I could follow a link to IngramSpark. I read up about this on their site. I'll have to look at it again though… After a whole week of self-publishing research (online and in books), my brain is a little fuzzy on the exact details of each operation. Lots to learn!

I also learned that Ingram's main headquarters is located maybe about five hours from me, which prompted my curiosity about whether they do tours. It doesn't seem like it, but I found a nice video on their site that taught about their process.

brainstorm77 said:

I've used Createspace for my self-published paperbacks. My husband does the files and uploading for me. He found it easy to use. I like the quality of the books. My only complaint is the flimsy covers.

One thing that really impressed me was when they lost my last order. It was a large order so I was a little upset. I contacted them and without asking any questions they sent out a replacement order right away at no extra cost.

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Wow, great customer service! That's good to hear

From what I've read thus far, Lightening Source has better quality print books that CreateSpace, but they're more expensive and the software they use is more tedious. But I've not seen books from either, so this is from reading through this forum and books on self-publishing.

RevanWright said:

I've been working with Ingram Spark, which is LS's program for indie authors. It's great if you read all the guides and submit to their specifications, but designing my own cover art and being inexperienced in print procedures, I had to go through several revisions and resubmissions. Their distribution channels are great, but the problem I've had is that, for the hardcover, if I want to sell with a 55% discount to retailers (which is industry standard and pretty much the only acceptable way to get into B&N, etc), I'd have to list the cover price at something like 28.99, which is absolutely ridiculous. I opted to go 40% at 23.99, and that's the best I could do without owing Ingram money for every copy, because the print cost is something like $13. Even so, I'll only make a little over a dollar for every copy, and most brick-and-morter stores likely won't stock any because of the 40% discount. But it'll be in all the systems, and I can walk into a B&N and order a copy through them. So I guess there's that.
The paperback is much cheaper to print, and I'll probably be able to list it at 13.99 with a 55% discount and get away with it.
Just got a proof copy in yesterday, though, and I'm fairly satisfied by the overall quality of the print.

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That's good to know, about your experience with Ingram Spark. I've heard that as well about the process being tedious, but that there are many great advantages. And from what I've been reading in Dan Poynter's Self-Publishing Manual and Mark Levine's The Fine Print of Self-Publishing (halfway through both books, liking them), hardcover often costs too much to produce. A lot of authors are doing only softcover for this reason, but Poynter says if you're doing a business book or other type of book where readers tend to expect a hardcover, then it's best to do it.

Does your POD audience expect to be able to purchase hardcovers? Are you sending retailers POD books?

As for the retailers: I'm wondering if the price would be cheaper per book if you had a bunch of hardcopies printed, then sent some to retailers and the extra ones sent out to reviewers as review copies (free, but marked with a stamp on page tips "REVIEW COPY"). I've read that one of the best ways to advertise is to have reviewers write a review.

Hope I'm making sense… Trying to relay what I've read, but I'm new to all of this!

AnnaPappenheim said:

I am ... reading [X] right now... About 200 pages in and finding it very informative. Also reading [Y]. Seems to compliment the other book well...

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The correct word is compl E ment, not compl I ment. I hope that's a typo and that you do know the difference.

My experience with Createspace has been wholly good. I can recommend them for all the reasons others have given for the service.

AnnaPappenheim said:

From what I've read thus far, Lightening Source has better quality print books that CreateSpace, but they're more expensive and the software they use is more tedious. But I've not seen books from either, so this is from reading through this forum and books on self-publishing.

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Note that neither CreateSpace nor Lightning Source provides software which typesets your books for you. You really do have to do this yourself or better yet, pay someone experienced to do it for you. I've seen SO many self published books ruined by poor or missing typesetting, and it makes such a difference to the final quality of the book.

If you ever buy physical books then chances are you have seen books from Lightning Source (not "Lightening"). Most of the big publishers use them, and many smaller ones too. Not all for POD, as they do offset too.

CreateSpace books are ok, but they do have their issues. I am pretty sure that Lightning Source offers wider variations on its POD: colour and weight of paper, for example, which make its books look better.

AnnaPappenheim said:

As for the retailers: I'm wondering if the price would be cheaper per book if you had a bunch of hardcopies printed, then sent some to retailers and the extra ones sent out to reviewers as review copies (free, but marked with a stamp on page tips "REVIEW COPY"). I've read that one of the best ways to advertise is to have reviewers write a review.

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If you use POD the price of the books remains fixed no matter how many copies you order: it's the nature of the technology.

To get a reduced price based on an increased order you need to use offset printing, which means you have to pay for a print run.

Offset printing has large set-up and clean-up costs, but a very low price per copy printed. Those set-up and clean-up costs are divided among all the copies you print, so the more you print the cheaper each copy becomes.

The point at which it's cheaper per copy printed to pay for an offset run depends on the sort of book you're printing (large, highly-illustrated books are more expensive to print than novels). It's going to be a few hundred copies. And most self published books just don't sell that many, so it's not often worth doing. Which is why few self publishers opt for an offset run, and why digital books have revolutionised self publishing.

Laer Carroll said:

The correct word is compl E ment, not compl I ment. I hope that's a typo and that you do know the difference.

_________________________
​

My experience with Createspace has been wholly good. I can recommend them for all the reasons others have given for the service.

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Thank you, yes. And I'd like to compliment you on the good vocabulary

Sometimes when I type quickly I rely on spellcheck. Although you know what? I think reading so many poorly written text messages and other hurriedly written things has begun to affect me! I sometimes find myself writing things like "there" when it should be "their," and want to smack myself! What would William Strunk, Jr. have said about the universally poor quality of writing in texts?!

I've also been victim to autocorrect in texts... Apparently I've told a female friend of mine some pretty raunchy things on moe than one occasion. At least she let me know; who knows what I've said to other people. Egads!

A funny link on autocorrect mistakes:
http://www.damnyouautocorrect.com


And good to know your thoughts on CreateSpace. At this point, I'm thinking I'll end up using a few different services, CS being one of them.

AnnaPappenheim said:

That's good to know, about your experience with Ingram Spark. I've heard that as well about the process being tedious, but that there are many great advantages. And from what I've been reading in Dan Poynter's Self-Publishing Manual and Mark Levine's The Fine Print of Self-Publishing (halfway through both books, liking them), hardcover often costs too much to produce. A lot of authors are doing only softcover for this reason, but Poynter says if you're doing a business book or other type of book where readers tend to expect a hardcover, then it's best to do it.

Does your POD audience expect to be able to purchase hardcovers? Are you sending retailers POD books?

As for the retailers: I'm wondering if the price would be cheaper per book if you had a bunch of hardcopies printed, then sent some to retailers and the extra ones sent out to reviewers as review copies (free, but marked with a stamp on page tips "REVIEW COPY"). I've read that one of the best ways to advertise is to have reviewers write a review.

Hope I'm making sense… Trying to relay what I've read, but I'm new to all of this!

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I'm new to it as well. I decided to start with a hardcover simply because I'm all romantic about putting a book out, you know? I feel like I need to get that hardback option out first. All my friends, family, and coworkers have opted to skip on the kindle edition and buy the hardback from Amazon. After that, the only sales I'll have on it, if any, will likely also come from Amazon.
I will be putting out the paperback, which is much more reasonably priced for production, around December. And I'll be able to get away with the 55% wholesale discount to retailers and still make a bit of a profit on it. Paperback really is a much friendlier option for self-pubbers.

Here's a pretty in-depth video review I just did of my hardcover: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B854Nl_2SDw
It's half an hour long, and I go into how their dashboard is set up, as well as a lot of the submission guidelines and what to expect when submitting. Hoping to help fellow self-pubbers that want a long-winded look at Ingram Spark.

RevanWright said:

I'm new to it as well. I decided to start with a hardcover simply because I'm all romantic about putting a book out, you know? I feel like I need to get that hardback option out first. All my friends, family, and coworkers have opted to skip on the kindle edition and buy the hardback from Amazon. After that, the only sales I'll have on it, if any, will likely also come from Amazon.
I will be putting out the paperback, which is much more reasonably priced for production, around December. And I'll be able to get away with the 55% wholesale discount to retailers and still make a bit of a profit on it. Paperback really is a much friendlier option for self-pubbers.

Here's a pretty in-depth video review I just did of my hardcover: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B854Nl_2SDw
It's half an hour long, and I go into how their dashboard is set up, as well as a lot of the submission guidelines and what to expect when submitting. Hoping to help fellow self-pubbers that want a long-winded look at Ingram Spark.

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Okay so WOW…! That video was wonderful for me at this stage, and I'm so happy you made it and posted the link. I watched the video and paused off and on to look things up. Seeing you go through the stages of how to use Ingram Spark was just really helpful. I'm sure others will find this as well. It can be intimidating to embark on a service like this, and seeing a run-through of it all took away much of that intimidation.

Also: It's exciting to watch someone opening their book for the first time!! Congratulations!

You noticed the pages were thin, and it sounded like there were limited options on this. Is this because it was POD? Maybe that's just the standard for POD…? They didn't stand out to me the way that they did to you, by the way, but I'm not sure if that's just because I was viewing them on a video vs. in person.

Why can't Ingram Spark do RGB? Why only CMYK in the cover art? Is this just the case with their POD books, or is this also the case with their off-set printing books? I thought your cover looked great, and very professional (as did the book in general, by the way), but when I saw how you intended the blues to look on your cover art, I could understand your disappointment. *Still* your cover looks great.

Did you paint your cover, and then photograph it? I was happy to see you used photoshop, as that's very familiar to me. You said you have Photoshop 6; I have CS5.1. Hopefully mine will be effective enough.

By the way, can you get them to shrink wrap the books they send out? If so, I'd recommend doing that. I think it would eliminate the dust you noticed on your cover, and the light rubbing marks.

I agree the paperback makes more sense. However… I'm a romantic when it comes to books too, so I can understand that. I always prefer a hardback to a paperback, and a printed book to an ebook. It makes little rational sense for me to buy hardbacks though, as I mark up all the books I read something sacrilege-- scribblings in the form of notes, underlinings, stars, long, wavy arrows around whole pages, etc.. (Hey, these are invaluable to re-readings!) I mostly buy paperbacks, and when I can I buy good used copies. Unmarked.

The cream pages and the blue cloth you selected both looked great.

I hope the next stages go well for you. I've read over and over again that it's imperative to have a website, and I saw that you do, so that's certainly a good thing. I'm on Chapter 7 of that Poynter's book, which is on promotion, and there's a lot of very helpful information in there; also, I noticed this forum has a whole section on book promotion, and that looks helpful as well. But, you're well ahead of me in this whole process, so I'm sure you've picked through countless sources already.

Thanks again for the link-- so happy you made that video!