Trim size for Createspace?

Status
Not open for further replies.

slhuang

Inappropriately math-oriented.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 11, 2012
Messages
2,906
Reaction score
1,140
Website
www.slhuang.com
What are everyone's thoughts on the trim size for a 101k SFF book?

I'm used to the mass market size for paperbacks, so I prefer smaller -- like the 5x8, which is still larger than mass market size. But trade paperbacks are often larger -- e.g., there's a William Gibson next to me that's 6x9.

If I choose a larger trim size, I can reduce the page count, thus making the book cheaper for my readers. But I see a lot of people saying that they like a smaller book and that 6x9 "looks self-published." When I searched threads here I saw Uncle Jim saying he did an experiment and smaller books sold better even at a higher price (though I don't know what the price differential was, or if the book was as long as mine -- I imagine there's a point at which that's no longer the case).

So I thought I'd do an informal poll, as follows:

* What's your preference in general: a smaller book, or a lower price?
* Regardless of the above, are you likely to be annoyed by a larger book?
* What price point starts to feel too expensive for a paperback?
* Do you even look at trim size when buying a book online?

(If you are a SFF reader in particular that is especially useful to me!)

I don't know what the exact price differential will be, by the way, because I don't know how the interior design will work out yet -- my designer can't proceed on that until I know what trim size! Catch-22. So if anyone else has a 100k-ish book and can give me some idea of what their final price-per-copy weighed in at, I'd also love that info. I did a bunch of searching here and around the web and couldn't find much -- if I missed anything feel free to point me. :)

TIA! :D
 

JournoWriter

Just the facts, please
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 2, 2012
Messages
591
Reaction score
38
A lower price is more important to me. I grew up on MMPBs (fantasy and sci-fi) but am finding a lot of the history/current affairs NF that I read now is trade PB size. I don't typically stick PBs in my back pocket any more, so MM vs. trade really makes no difference.

For a MMPB, I'll pay $10+ if it's a known author and a long book (eg, GRRM). My gut says the optimal price point is $6-8. For a trade paperback, I'll go up to $18 or thereabouts if it's something I really want, but my gut prefers $13-15.

I do not consider size when buying online. HB/PB format, yes, but I don't care what the dimensions are.
 

WriterBN

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 5, 2012
Messages
1,323
Reaction score
87
Location
Delaware
Website
www.k-doyle.com
The trim size really doesn't matter to me as a reader. Price is a consideration, but it depends on the author and book. These days, I mostly purchase e-books.

As a self-publisher, it's best to stick to a standard trim size because nonstandard ones won't work with extended distribution. If someone's purchasing a self-published book, they're going to do so online anyway, and may not even consider the trim size.
 

slhuang

Inappropriately math-oriented.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 11, 2012
Messages
2,906
Reaction score
1,140
Website
www.slhuang.com
*starts collating data* Thanks, folks, this is very helpful! :)

@WriterBN -- Yes, I'll definitely be going with a standard trim size for the extended distribution (I definitely appreciate the double-check on that :D). Just trying to figure out which....
 

slhuang

Inappropriately math-oriented.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 11, 2012
Messages
2,906
Reaction score
1,140
Website
www.slhuang.com
So I finally made it by the bookstore to do some measuring -- whoops, meant to do that before I posted! -- and in the SFF section, the trade paperbacks were about evenly split between 6x9, 5.5x8.5, and 5.25x8. Heh, I don't know where people got the "6x9 looks self-published" thing -- they must never buy TPBs! (To be fair, I rarely do either, heh. *builds fort out of MMPBs*)

I think it's possible I've been overthinking this because I'm so used to mass market size; my roommate and I probably have 90 percent MM paperbacks in the house, so 6x9 was feeling really big. ;) But since it seems like a perfectly normal size for TPB -- at least for SFF -- I'll probably go with that and save my readers a few bucks.

Opinions still welcome if you feel like sharing 'em. :D
 

Fruitbat

.
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 15, 2010
Messages
11,833
Reaction score
1,310
Mine is the standard 6x9 but I wish I'd have gotten the 5x8. To me, 6x9 looks a bit weirdly large. I have plenty of trade paperbacks that are not that big. I didn't check beforehand, though, and just went with their statement that 6x9 was "standard."

You could always just cut yourself in for a lower profit on the higher number of pages for the 5x8. That might make your profit per book come out about the same anyway. Also, my cover art illustration cost more because it was a larger size.

Just my opinion of course but if I were you I'd make sure you actually hold a 5x8 and a 6x9 book in your hands before you decide.

*Edited: It looks like you already have but I'll leave that suggestion there anyway in case it helps someone else. :)
 
Last edited:

slhuang

Inappropriately math-oriented.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 11, 2012
Messages
2,906
Reaction score
1,140
Website
www.slhuang.com
Mine is the standard 6x9 but I wish I'd have gotten the 5x8. To me, 6x9 looks a bit weirdly large.

Ya, Fruitbat, I was thinking the exact same thing until I went to the bookstore and measured! *is suddenly indecisive again* :D

Thanks for all the info!! Do you mind me asking how many words your book is? I'm trying to get a feel for how many pages I'll end up at the various trim sizes.... ;) (Your book looks very cool, btw!)

I have plenty of trade paperbacks that are not that big.
Are they predominantly one genre or another? I did see something somewhere else online about romances tending to be smaller, is why I'm asking. :) If it's all genres, then I got nuthin....maybe the larger TPBs are a recent trend in SFF or something....*knows nothing*

Thanks again -- really appreciate the info/experience. :D

(And I second you about holding the different sizes in your hands before deciding. There is quite a large difference. Of course, I've done that and I'm still dithering! ;))
 

J. Tanner

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 10, 2011
Messages
1,245
Reaction score
99
Location
San Francisco bay area
Website
authorjtanner.wordpress.com
I prefer the look of a MMPB (5.25x8).

6x9 feels like hardcover size.

I only check trim size if I notice multiple formats available. I would not hesitate to buy a 6x9 paperback I wanted if that was the only option.

I'm sensitive to paperback book prices over $9.99. Except for absolute favorite authors I collect, higher prices mean library or ebook instead. (This is, granted, a tough price point to achieve for POD regardless and the production costs can put it in the range of "luxury" buyers only--not necessarily a problem in self-publishing where ebook will be your bread and butter.)
 

slhuang

Inappropriately math-oriented.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 11, 2012
Messages
2,906
Reaction score
1,140
Website
www.slhuang.com
Thanks, J. Tanner! Yeah, your inclinations are very similar to mine. :D

For anyone who's interested, I've been fiddling with the Createspace royalties calculator, and here is the minimum whole-dollar price for each page-thickness that will give a positive profit in all categories (i.e., positive return of a few cents for expanded distribution, and a return of $2-3ish on Amazon.com):

For 250 pages: $10
For 300 pages: $12
For 350 pages: $13
For 400 pages: $15

And that's the minimum for positive returns on expanded distribution -- if you want to get more than a few cents off non-Amazon sales, it has to be a little higher. (At least, I presume I'm reading that right! Correct me if I'm wrong. ;))

If I figure 250-300 words per page, I'm looking at 330-400 pages, which puts me in the $13-15 category as the absolute minimum price. Which I know is pretty solidly in standard trade paperback pricing, but I also have no MMPB forthcoming. And if I want to build in more than a few cents' profit on anything sold outside of Amazon . . . and if I want any freedom in text readability/size and page count . . .

6x9 might let me squeak in on the low end of that, or even below it -- if I could clock in closer to 300 pages that might give me a little breathing room on pricing without feeling like I'm gouging people. That's definitely the way I'm leaning.

Anyway, I'm sort of thinking out loud here and posting in thread in case it's helpful to other people contemplating this. Thanks for all the continued input!! :D
 

Fruitbat

.
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 15, 2010
Messages
11,833
Reaction score
1,310
Thanks for all the info!! Do you mind me asking how many words your book is? I'm trying to get a feel for how many pages I'll end up at the various trim sizes.... ;) (Your book looks very cool, btw!)...

Are they predominantly one genre or another? I did see something somewhere else online about romances tending to be smaller, is why I'm asking. :) If it's all genres, then I got nuthin....maybe the larger TPBs are a recent trend in SFF or something....*knows nothing*

Thanks! My book is 210 pages and about 50,000 words, but they take up more space than a novel because each of the flash stories begins on a new page.

You know, I have no idea about size and genre or if it's a recent trend. My guess is recent trend, though, just because it looks "off" to me and I don't often hang around in book stores anymore.
 

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman
Super Moderator
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
22,454
Reaction score
4,956
Location
In chaos
You can find a rough page-count by changing the paper size in your word-processing package, and fiddling around with the font size and spacing. It's rough, but it works. I've done it lots of times. Don't forget to add a few extra pages for front matter and so on.
 

girlyswot

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 1, 2007
Messages
2,227
Reaction score
389
Location
Cambridge
Website
myromancereviews.wordpress.com
I did some measuring too.

MMPB: 4.25"x7"

BUT you don't want to go with this via CS because the paper is wrong. MMPBs are printed on thinner, flimsier paper. If you're printing 300-400 pages on thicker paper, your MMPB will look weird.

Trade paperback: 6"x9.25"
(I measured a Nora Roberts book. It does not look self-published.)

I basically think there is not the same level of consistency there was ten or twenty years ago. I have (not self published) books on my shelf in a whole range of sizes and formats. The trade paperbacks do tend to be printed on paper which is more similar to the kind CS use, so that's a good reason to go with that sort of size.

The biggest difference is that non-self-published books rarely have a glossy cover. Choose matte and you'll be fine.
 

J. Tanner

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 10, 2011
Messages
1,245
Reaction score
99
Location
San Francisco bay area
Website
authorjtanner.wordpress.com
And that's the minimum for positive returns on expanded distribution -- if you want to get more than a few cents off non-Amazon sales, it has to be a little higher. (At least, I presume I'm reading that right! Correct me if I'm wrong. ;))

It's been a while since I looked into CreateSpace pricing, but that sounds like what I was disappointed to find at the time.

If I figure 250-300 words per page, I'm looking at 330-400 pages, which puts me in the $13-15 category as the absolute minimum price.

When I checked the text density of a few paperbacks on my shelf to get some idea I found them more along the lines of 350-400 words per page. Throw in 10-20 "lost" pages and I think typical novels can squeeze into the 300 page range unless the formatting or prose itself is unusually airy.
 

MaggieDana

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 18, 2009
Messages
65
Reaction score
6
Website
www.maggiedana.com
Things that can make a print book appear amateurish:

narrow margins
tight leading
widows
loose lines
lack of hyphenation
Times Roman

If you're concerned about length (number of pages), try not to squeeze more words on the page at the expense of margins and leading (space between lines of type). I suggest dropping the point size but keeping generous leading and margins as your first choice in reducing length. Also, fonts. Play with different ones: Garamond, Minion, Sabon, Baskerville, for example; avoid Bookman and Century Schoolbook (a bit childish looking, plus they take up too much horizontal width).

Keep in mind that you want your book to be eminently readable, especially by its target audience. Make the leading too tight or the margins too narrow and your potential reader might decide that although the story is appealing, there's something about the book that is offputting. Nine times out of ten the offputting thing will be a bad or inappropriate design.

Several years ago I wrote an article about print book design and how it affects readability for Old Hack's blog. If anyone is interested, I will post a link.
 

WriterBN

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 5, 2012
Messages
1,323
Reaction score
87
Location
Delaware
Website
www.k-doyle.com
Createspace (or any POD outfit, really) is basically a losing proposition once you get beyond 60-75K words or so, if you want to stay competitive on pricing. And it becomes even worse with expanded distribution because your cut is lower.

slhuang, I hope you plan on doing a KDP version, too.
 

slhuang

Inappropriately math-oriented.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 11, 2012
Messages
2,906
Reaction score
1,140
Website
www.slhuang.com
Ooo, thanks for all the additional info!

@MaggieDana -- so wonderful to have you weigh in! Roger all that. I am actually working with a very talented interior designer, thankfully, as I don't have the skills to do what you guys do! But he asked me for my preference on trim size, which is what brought me here.

From what you're saying, it sounds like a larger trim size would give him more freedom to do all the things you're talking about without worrying about pricing me out of my market. At least, that's what I'm interpreting. :)

And even though I'm not doing the interior design myself, I'd love to see your article! I'm one of those people who both notices bad typesetting and appreciates good typesetting, and I'm generally fascinated with the whole process. (Basically, I'm not doing it myself because I know how much I don't know.)

slhuang, I hope you plan on doing a KDP version, too.

Yup, the ebook's been out for months, actually! :D (It's the book in my sig.) I'm adding a paperback because the ebook is doing decently and I've been getting requests for a print version. :)

I agree with you on the ROI for print in general, which is why I haven't invested in it until now. If the ebook had sold two copies . . . well, let's just say I wouldn't be having this conversation with you all. ;)
 
Last edited:

MaggieDana

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 18, 2009
Messages
65
Reaction score
6
Website
www.maggiedana.com
@slhuang

Here you go:

http://howpublishingreallyworks.blogspot.com/2009/05/guest-post-how-book-design-affects.html

This was written 5 years ago but the tenets of good design never change. Let me know if it's remotely useful!

ETA: let me know when it's out and I'll buy it for my grandson (16). He loves math and fiction about math wizards and though he has a Kindle, he much prefers print, with a special fondness for hardcovers! He spends a lot of time at the library.
 
Last edited:

Dallionz

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 10, 2014
Messages
339
Reaction score
13
First, I will say that cost is the largest consideration for me. As far as my upper price on a paperback, I would say $15.00. it's highly unlikely I would spend more than that on a paperback unless it was something like a textbook or large collection of information (like a book on essential oils, recipes, cautions, etc).

That said, I chose 5x8 for my book and I love the size. I likely will choose that for all of my future books. I also like 6x8 but personally won't go any larger than that.
 

slhuang

Inappropriately math-oriented.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 11, 2012
Messages
2,906
Reaction score
1,140
Website
www.slhuang.com
Thanks, Dallionz! Yup, that's about where my preferences lie, too.


What a cool article; thank you! The University of Michigan study was particularly fascinating. And what a kick to watch you guys geek out in the comments. :) Thank you for posting it!

ETA: let me know when it's out and I'll buy it for my grandson (16). He loves math and fiction about math wizards and though he has a Kindle, he much prefers print, with a special fondness for hardcovers! He spends a lot of time at the library.
Oh wow -- thank you! :D

I hope the interior design will be up to your standards. ;) (Fortunately I have great confidence in my designer!)
 

slhuang

Inappropriately math-oriented.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 11, 2012
Messages
2,906
Reaction score
1,140
Website
www.slhuang.com
So for anyone still following this thread, my 101k novel at a 6x9 trim size ended up being 326 pages. :D My interior designer said he consciously tried to fit as many words on each page as possible without compromising the design (the typesetting is gorgeous and has perfect readability!).

I'm very glad I went with 6x9 -- I'll be able to price under $15 now and still make the POD return satisfactory. :D Hope this info helps others!
 

SBibb

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 2, 2011
Messages
1,573
Reaction score
116
Website
sbibb.wordpress.com
So for anyone still following this thread, my 101k novel at a 6x9 trim size ended up being 326 pages. :D My interior designer said he consciously tried to fit as many words on each page as possible without compromising the design (the typesetting is gorgeous and has perfect readability!).

I'm very glad I went with 6x9 -- I'll be able to price under $15 now and still make the POD return satisfactory. :D Hope this info helps others!

Awesome! And good luck with the sales. :)

And yes, this was an interesting thread to read through. I was wondering if you had considered using both Ingram Spark and Createspace to sell books? I haven't tried Ingram Spark, and it's been a while since I've looked at their pricing and royalties calculator, but I'm wondering if it might provide a viable alternative to expanded distribution on Create Space?
 

slhuang

Inappropriately math-oriented.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 11, 2012
Messages
2,906
Reaction score
1,140
Website
www.slhuang.com
Awesome! And good luck with the sales. :)

Thank you!! :D

I was wondering if you had considered using both Ingram Spark and Createspace to sell books? I haven't tried Ingram Spark, and it's been a while since I've looked at their pricing and royalties calculator, but I'm wondering if it might provide a viable alternative to expanded distribution on Create Space?
I didn't consider using both platforms because I didn't want to create more work for my typesetter, who is already going very much above and beyond for me. :) Apparently there are quirks that make designing for them not one-size-fits-all at that level. *knows nothing about it myself*

I know there are AWers around who do do that, though -- CS for Amazon and IS for outside-of-Amazon -- so if you poke around for them or start a thread about it I'm sure one of them could give you advice!
 

SBibb

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 2, 2011
Messages
1,573
Reaction score
116
Website
sbibb.wordpress.com
I didn't consider using both platforms because I didn't want to create more work for my typesetter, who is already going very much above and beyond for me. :) Apparently there are quirks that make designing for them not one-size-fits-all at that level. *knows nothing about it myself*

Ah, that does make sense. I've heard that Ingram Spark can be picky about the type of files it accepts.
 

Laer Carroll

Aerospace engineer turned writer
Super Member
Registered
Temp Ban
Joined
Sep 13, 2012
Messages
2,478
Reaction score
268
Location
Los Angeles
Website
LaerCarroll.com
I prefer 6x9 with .5 inch margins, an extra .5 inch added to the inside margin. For font size I’ve used 12 pt for longer novels, 14 pt for shorter ones.
 

K.B. Parker

I've lost my mind
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 7, 2013
Messages
612
Reaction score
62
Another thing to consider with pricing is that Amazon will almost always discount your book. When I first published, I listed it at $9.99 and Amazon, almost immediately, discounted it to $8.49.

I went into expanded distribution last month and raised the price to 12.99 (75k-ish words, 300 pages, 5.25x8). Amazon still has the book discounted to 8.49.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.