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Samhain Publishing

AmberS

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My advice would be to stop and consider whether you really have nonconsensual erotic sex or not, and if you do, look at revising. Technically Amazon won't publish it if it's rape and if it's meant to titillate. So almost no publishers will pick it up. The ones that do just sell it on their website.

However, if you have dubious consent... or forced seduction... yeah, that is fine. The line may be gray, but it's there if you read enough of what's published. If you decide what you have IS dubious consent, then don't go around calling it nonconsent :) If you email a legit editor and ask if they take "nonconsent", the answer will have to be no.
 

veinglory

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Amazon's position is ambiguous. Plenty of rape fantasy fic (very obvious examples) is up despite being reported many times. Their sticking points tend to be underage and incest, not rape.

In terms of Samhain rape/titillation would be hard to combine with romance which is their core genre outside horror. The do take some ambiguous consent scenarios--or at least they took one from me.
 
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Ms.Paperback

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Thanks for the advice. I'm not even sure that what I'm writing would fall into the Erotica category. I'm using that word because the book contains explicit sexual content. But it's basically a science fiction novel about a dystopian future. Parts of it involve women being tortured by representatives of the state, and though these scenes only take up a relatively small part of the book, they're central to the narrative, and involve extremely explicit BDSM practices. But they aren't intended to titillate - if anything, it's an anti-BDSM book, so obviously pretty hard to categorize. If I were to compare it with another novel, it would be J. Neil Schulman's THE RAINBOW CADENZA.
 

veinglory

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If the scene is not erotic and the book is not erotica, I don't see a problem.

I would suggest not calling something that is essentially sexual torture or violence BDSM.
 

Ms.Paperback

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"I would suggest not calling something that is essentially sexual torture or violence BDSM."

That sounds like good advice. I'm not using the term BDSM in the book, but was thinking of using it when describing the book (for example, in the cover blurb and synopsis).
 

MumblingSage

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"I would suggest not calling something that is essentially sexual torture or violence BDSM."

That sounds like good advice. I'm not using the term BDSM in the book, but was thinking of using it when describing the book (for example, in the cover blurb and synopsis).

BDSM scenes are intended to titiallate--speaking in marketing terms, if not philosophically. I would feel betrayed as a reader if I picked up something described as BDSM and instead found violent, upsetting torture scenes. I should note that from your description I'm picturing 1984 (Winston and O'Brian, not Winston and Julia--and with no comment on the fanfiction ;D ) or I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream. Albeit with more genetalia, which just makes it worse. That's science fiction, even horror, not erotica, even if it includes actions which are erotic to some people under different circumstances.
 
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Ms.Paperback

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"I should note that from you're description I'm picturing 1984 (Winston and O'Brian, not Winston and Julia--and with no comment on the fanfiction ;D ) or I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream."

There's actually a quote from 1984 in the book, though as a whole it's more like THE HUNGER GAMES. The only reason I'm reluctant to describe the book as purely science-fiction is that anyone who picks it up expecting a science-fiction novel should be aware that it includes a section containing an explicit account of what can most accurately be described as 'nonconsensual BDSM activities'. Perhaps 'sexual torture' would be another way of saying the same thing. By the way, I'd be happy to PM the blurb (which gives a fairly clear idea of where the book is going) to anyone who'd be interested in reading it.
 

Sheryl Nantus

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"I would suggest not calling something that is essentially sexual torture or violence BDSM."

That sounds like good advice. I'm not using the term BDSM in the book, but was thinking of using it when describing the book (for example, in the cover blurb and synopsis).

I wouldn't use it AT ALL.

At the very least it's misleading. If I want a book with BDSM and pick this up based on the blurb and/or synopsis I'll be rather annoyed.

I can guarantee a publisher will be ticked off if you use that term and it's not anywhere near that.

Please rephrase it. Please.
 

amergina

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The only reason I'm reluctant to describe the book as purely science-fiction is that anyone who picks it up expecting a science-fiction novel should be aware that it includes a section containing an explicit account of what can most accurately be described as 'nonconsensual BDSM activities'. Perhaps 'sexual torture' would be another way of saying the same thing.

I would think that sexual torture would be a much better term for it.

I would posit that BDSM is always consensual. The moment it's not, it moves to being torture or rape.

I would not use the term BDSM to describe sexual torture and if it was used in a book blurb that way, I'd not read the book.

Personally, it sounds like you have a dystopian novel that borders on horror. Violent and dark SF.
 

Mr Flibble

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Thanks for the advice. I'm not even sure that what I'm writing would fall into the Erotica category. I'm using that word because the book contains explicit sexual content.

That's not (or only part of) what makes something erotica.


But it's basically a science fiction novel about a dystopian future. Parts of it involve women being tortured by representatives of the state, and though these scenes only take up a relatively small part of the book, they're central to the narrative, and involve extremely explicit BDSM practices. But they aren't intended to titillate - if anything, it's an anti-BDSM book, so obviously pretty hard to categorize. If I were to compare it with another novel, it would be J. Neil Schulman's THE RAINBOW CADENZA.


Sounds to me like you have a straight up SF, with sexual content. As noted, this is not the same as erotica. Plenty of SF (and F) have sexual content. The nature of yours may make it a harder sell, but it's not that unusual (it wasn't all that long ago I had to put down a mainstream, award winning future dystopia novel for similar scenes that were describing so lovingly I felt a bit sick)

There's nothing wrong with that, but I'd read a few of Samhain's books and see what the differences are, how you think you might (or might not) fit in with what they're publishing first. What works for one pub will not fly at all for another. It helps to have read a few of their books to see what they are about and if they're the right fit (for both your sakes.)
 

gingerwoman

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"I should note that from you're description I'm picturing 1984 (Winston and O'Brian, not Winston and Julia--and with no comment on the fanfiction ;D ) or I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream."

There's actually a quote from 1984 in the book, though as a whole it's more like THE HUNGER GAMES. The only reason I'm reluctant to describe the book as purely science-fiction is that anyone who picks it up expecting a science-fiction novel should be aware that it includes a section containing an explicit account of what can most accurately be described as 'nonconsensual BDSM activities'. Perhaps 'sexual torture' would be another way of saying the same thing. By the way, I'd be happy to PM the blurb (which gives a fairly clear idea of where the book is going) to anyone who'd be interested in reading it.
So it's not an erotic romance? There are actually plenty of other places you can send it to that take unsolicited, unagented Sci Fi besides Samhain. I thought at first you had a "forced consent" erotic romance which I've seen publishers like Liquid Silver books do, but I guess this is more a straight up Sci Fi with explicit scenes. Doesn't really sound like a Samhain book, but I couldn't say for sure.
If the book doesn't at least have strong romantic elements and it's not horror though, it's not right for Samhain.There are lots of places you can send it to as a straight up Sci Fi
http://darkmarkets.com/category/markets/book-publishers/

Erotica the whole book focuses on the sexual journey, and erotic romance the novel focuses on the romance and the sexual journey. Your book isn't relevant to those genres from what you describe.
 
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Ms.Paperback

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Thanks for all the advice. The problem is that the book I'm writing really straddles categories. I can imagine publishers of erotica (including violent erotica) rejecting the book because 75 per cent of it is dedicated to such things as character, dialogue, action, and even romance, and I can imagine publishers of science fiction rejecting it because the plot revolves around a lengthy sequence of extremely explicit sexual torture. But I honestly believe the book has commercial potential, and at least Samhain sound like they might be willing to take a risk on something that's difficult to define. Anyway, I'm only about a third of the way through my first draft, so probably won't be ready to submit the book until near the end of the year. We shall see...
 

MumblingSage

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Thanks for all the advice. The problem is that the book I'm writing really straddles categories. I can imagine publishers of erotica (including violent erotica) rejecting the book because 75 per cent of it is dedicated to such things as character, dialogue, action, and even romance, and I can imagine publishers of science fiction rejecting it because the plot revolves around a lengthy sequence of extremely explicit sexual torture. But I honestly believe the book has commercial potential, and at least Samhain sound like they might be willing to take a risk on something that's difficult to define. Anyway, I'm only about a third of the way through my first draft, so probably won't be ready to submit the book until near the end of the year. We shall see...

I read in both genres, and I don't see a sci fi publisher rejecting you for the explict torture, provided it's well-written and necessary to the plot (if you're uncertain whether or not it's necessary, that's a composition problem rather than a marketing one).
 

veinglory

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If anything, torture seems like a pretty common theme is sci fi right now. There are books where the main character is a torturer.
 

Stacy

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I got my rejection letter today for my dark fantasy romance. I submitted 12 weeks and 3 days ago.
 

gingerwoman

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If anything, torture seems like a pretty common theme is sci fi right now. There are books where the main character is a torturer.
Yes I have to say I don't read a broad range of Sci Fi and Fantasy, but those who do tell me that explicit content is fairly common?
Sorry about the R Stacey.
 

OJCade

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It's common in a sort of sub-genre they call grimdark, where everything is terrible. Outside of that, though, there's not much more explicit violence overall than there is in any other genre, I think. Some books have it, many don't.
 

Jo Zebedee

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Darker sci fi and fantasy are definitely "in" right now.

Joe Abercrombie's The Blade Itself is the one with the torturer, Glotka, as a main character ( there may be others), who himself has been horrendously tortured in the past.

Grimdark - Abercrombie, Mark Lawrence, George Martin and the ilk - is definitely popular enough that it's becoming a subgenre. In a way, though, I think it's partly the genre rebelling against the Tolkien influence and trying to break out a little.

Sci fi has more of a heritage of darkness, anyway, I think. Baron Harkonnen in Dune, for instance - I can't remember if he tortures anyone specifically, but he's not the chap you'd invite for dinner with your Granma -- and Bujold uses torture as a key storyline with Mark Vorkosigan.

I have some torture in mine (not gratuitous, I hasten to add) and few of the genre readers to date have blinked much. I have also had two offers on the trilogy, so the torture has not been a barrier. But it is done pretty sensitively and fades from the tortured character as soon as I can do so.

Explicitness is down to you - Bujold's isn't especially, Abercrombie's are full on and Lawrence has a scene with a dog that I'm still sorry I read (and I have a good horror pedigree.) the key thing is that it drives the storyline and isn't there for the urgh factor.
 
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OJCade

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^Glotka is a fantastic character. A terrible person - even if, against your will almost, you feel sorry for him from time to time - but a fantastic character.