Vampies are overdone...other dark races?

Blinkk · Sep 21, 2014

jjdebenedictis said:
Chris Wooding's Braided Path trilogy does it with magic users called the Weavers. They seem to serve kings and queens, but they're really manipulating them, and they're quite creepy and scary while being just a special category of human.

I could dig that. I'm starting to put together some ideas you guys are bouncing around. Although I'm fond of a dark race of uber-humans running around the background doing evil things, vampires have a reputation. I don't know that I want the reputation that comes attached to the word 'vampire' to enter my story. I heard what you're saying, phantasy and Roxxsmom about preconceived notions.

I may pick up Braided Path and check out how it's done there. I may even combine this idea with Cathy's idea and make a sect of humans who spread rumors on purpose about some mythical creatures that can warp people's minds. And then the manipulating sect of humans release lead into the noble's bath water for several months or something...

Just tossing out ideas.

But they still have to magical, or have access to something which can give the MC back his mind. (His mind was meddled with for a reason - he used to know something...)

Humans certainly can be creepy when they want to be. Especially when in corrupted groups. I think I need to decided how much of a fantasy element I want this group of beings to have. I'd like for them to have power over regular humans which is why I'm leaning towards the group being magically inclined. Hmm...I'm going to have to sit on this one for a little bit.

Jhaewyrmend said:
why not demons or wraiths? A little on the darker side? Demons for sure can be high class so to speak. And who know what you could pull out of a hat for wraiths.

Demons and wraiths are things I love. If you check out my signature, I've actually got a full length novel that's centered around wraiths and another short story that's centered around demons. I love these things! It's interesting to consider these beings again, but since I wrote about them already I may move onto something new. But generally, they have the darkness I'm looking for.

For what it's worth, this sub-forum is always awesome at soundboarding.

rwm4768 · Sep 21, 2014

I kind of like the demon idea, especially if they're perhaps not so evil. "Demonic" races can be fun to work with in fantasy.

blacbird · Sep 21, 2014

Vampires are old and dead.

caw

Lillith1991 · Sep 21, 2014

Roxxsmom said:
Vampire like mythic beings certainly existed (in folklore, at least) prior to the Victorian era, and they're found in different cultures too. But a medieval setting where there are creatures that can turn into blood-sucking bats and are allergic to crucifixes (I think the actual word only dates to the 18th century) running around calling themselves "vamps," especially when they're really just humans with superpowers. Ergh, no.

I'll admit that if I see the word "vampires" on the back of an epic fantasy novel, it will probably go back on the shelf. I'm probably being unfair, but for me, I just can't get past all those Dracula remakes (even before vampires started to sparkle and attend suburban high schools).

But beings that integrate some of the historic traditions that went into the creation of modern vampires, not to mention other cultures' tropes for beings that are similar to vampires in some ways? Sure. Just make it interesting.

I know a rose by any name is supposed to be as sweet, but the word just is too specific to me.

Eh, suit yourself Roxx. That's what using other things than Dracula for ininpiration is for, I don't like clichéd Dracula clones all that much either truthfully. Besides Bram Stoker didn't even create the first known vampires no matter how much people insist he did, he got his inspiration from legends and fiction already out there at the time.

Roxxsmom · Sep 22, 2014

Lillith1991 said:
Eh, suit yourself Roxx. That's what using other things than Dracula for ininpiration is for, I don't like clichéd Dracula clones all that much either truthfully. Besides Bram Stoker didn't even create the first known vampires no matter how much people insist he did, he got his inspiration from legends and fiction already out there at the time.

He definitely didn't invent the monster, and according to the OED, he didn't even invent the word "Vampire," as that dates back to the 1700s, and obviously such creatures existed before, albeit with different names. It's just that vampires that are actually called vampires seem out of place in a high fantasy (I always associate that with medievalish European) setting.

Just can't get this image out of my head.

Not very medieval-ey.

But this is probably because I don't tend to read UF (heck, I never even got that into Anne Rice), and so I don't appreciate all the new takes on vampires of the non sparkly variety that have come into existence in recent decades.

Lamias are another monster that are rather scary, and they share some qualities with vampires. They're supposed to be female, though, and I think the original came from Greek mythology.

Lillith1991 · Sep 22, 2014

Roxxsmom said:
He definitely didn't invent the monster, and according to the OED, he didn't even invent the word "Vampire," as that dates back to the 1700s, and obviously such creatures existed before, albeit with different names. It's just that vampires that are actually called vampires seem out of place in a high fantasy (I always associate that with medievalish European) setting.

Just can't get this image out of my head.

Not very medieval-ey.

But this is probably because I don't tend to read UF (heck, I never even got that into Anne Rice), and so I don't appreciate all the new takes on vampires of the non sparkly variety that have come into existence in recent decades.

Lamias are another monster that are rather scary, and they share some qualities with vampires. They're supposed to be female, though, and I think the original came from Greek mythology.

Haha! Yea, I get what you're saying. I'm just saying that the word vampire shouldn't be such a problem, because vampire-like creatures are as old as human civilization itself. Western Europe had revenants and many myths about such things before vampire became the common word, and revenants aren't too far off from vampires in what they do. In fact, the earliest cases of the word vampire being used would have seen them called revenants 100 years before.

And yup, Lamae are Greek in origin. They're also supposed to be a forerunner of Succubi.

But I'm biased when it comes to Vampires, I love the things and want to put them in a Epic Fantasy story one day. I think a lot of peoples problems with vampires stem from Stoker knock-offs permeating things to such an extreme. Infuse some pre-Stoker blood into Vamps and I think people would like them a lot more.

Roxxsmom · Sep 22, 2014

Lillith1991 said:
Haha! Yea, I get what you're saying. I'm just saying that the word vampire shouldn't be such a problem, because vampire-like creatures are as old as human civilization itself. Western Europe had revenants and many myths about such things before vampire became the common word, and revenants aren't too far off from vampires in what they do. In fact, the earliest cases of the word vampire being used would have seen them called revenants 100 years before.

Interesting. Now I always thought revenants were more like avenging spirit

Lillith1991 said:
But I'm biased when it comes to Vampires, I love the things and want to put them in a Epic Fantasy story one day. I think a lot of peoples problems with vampires stem from Stoker knock-offs permeating things to such an extreme. Infuse some pre-Stoker blood into Vamps and I think people would like them a lot more.

Well, just make them cool enough, and it will probably work, no matter how you name them.

Bolero · Sep 22, 2014

Tepelus said:
Look up Rakshasa.

So that's the third mention of Rakshasa I'd heard recently.

Never heard of them and then about a month or so back I tried out Benedict Jacka's series - and there is a Rakshasa in one book and then Ilona Andrews "Magic Strikes" and there are slightly different Rakshasa in there.
Know nothing about them from direct reading, but they were quite fun in a nasty way.

snafu1056 · Sep 22, 2014

What about a secret demonic cult? Religion has always had pretty strong sway over people.

Another option would be succubi or inccubi. Monsters that can assume the form of attractive men or women to seduce mere humans. And in the case of inccubi, maybe even impregnate some poor human woman with a demon baby.

Gilroy Cullen · Sep 22, 2014

I say do something even more sinster... all hail the FELINE overlords!

Think about it. A story of dark and sinster intents of the furball that keeps hacking up a hairball on the dining room table...

:roll:

Marlys · Sep 22, 2014

Gilroy Cullen said:
I say do something even more sinster... all hail the FELINE overlords!

Think about it. A story of dark and sinster intents of the furball that keeps hacking up a hairball on the dining room table...

SHHHH! Somebody's sweet little kitty is bound to come over and bat oh-so-playfully at one of our keyboards--while actually checking up on what we're all posting. And when Muffins sees what you just let slip...oh, man. Just delete that post.

rwm4768 · Sep 22, 2014

Gilroy Cullen said:
I say do something even more sinster... all hail the FELINE overlords!

Think about it. A story of dark and sinster intents of the furball that keeps hacking up a hairball on the dining room table...

I should write a story with real feline overlords. Maybe some humanoid cats.

Blinkk · Sep 22, 2014

rwm4768 said:
I should write a story with real feline overlords. Maybe some humanoid cats.

The movie cats and dogs is coming to mind right now...

Xelebes · Sep 22, 2014

Try a knocker (not a knucker,) other haunting/friendly spectre from dark manmade spaces such as mines or dungeons.

Tepelus · Sep 22, 2014

Kitties can be evil.

Dryad · Sep 22, 2014

There are a fair number of creatures known for leading people astray. You could just give them more lead-astray power and malevolence. Will-o-the-wisps as powerful beings, for instance, would be pretty cool. Kelpies certainly have a dark image. Build up their lead-astray powers into something more intricately manipulative and they'd be contenders.

LOTLOF · Sep 22, 2014

rwm4768 said:
I should write a story with real feline overlords. Maybe some humanoid cats.

Been done, Larry Niven and his Kzinti.

Hapax Legomenon · Sep 23, 2014

While the concept of "vampires" has been around a long time, the idea of the vampire as being this intelligent, urbane, manipulative monster is rather Victorian or just a bit earlier, isn't it? They still might be out of place doing this if it is a medieval fantasy.

I was thinking of demons when I first read this, but to be honest they're kind of similar in this way, medieval demons being seen as blatant and obvious and not the grand manipulators they are today. A lot of the modern ideas about demons as manipulators have come from Doctor Faustus and Paradise Lost, right? Which came later.

Anyway, it's possible to have just a secret cult of humans. Or lizardmen. New World Order and all that supposedly goes back a ways...

PeteMC · Sep 23, 2014

LOTLOF said:
Been done, Larry Niven and his Kzinti.

Everything's been done. Anyway Niven's Kzinti were more like tigers than alleycats - I think the world needs a fantasy with sinister "puddy tats".

Gilroy Cullen · Sep 23, 2014

Marlys said:
SHHHH! Somebody's sweet little kitty is bound to come over and bat oh-so-playfully at one of our keyboards--while actually checking up on what we're all posting. And when Muffins sees what you just let slip...oh, man. Just delete that post.

That explains why I had a hairball on my shoes this morning. (Did I mention I'm servant to five feline overlords?

)

John Ayliff · Sep 23, 2014

This may not fit your creative process, but if I were you I'd make up an original race/shadowy human group, based on the needs of your story, but don't get too attached to whatever name you make up for them. Once you've got more detail about what they're like, see if there's an established fantasy/mythological race that matches. If so, call them that; if not, they're an original race. Picking an 'off-the-shelf' race at this point might end up constraining you rather than helping.

cmhbob · Sep 23, 2014

Dragons.

Seems like i recall one species of dragons in D&D could shape-shift. Or maybe something like Reign of Fire, where we accidentally breach the barrier between our world and the dragons'.

Reziac · Sep 23, 2014

Invisible but otherwise normal humans.

And some post here reminded me of The Brains of Earth (aka Nopalgarth) by Jack Vance, where it transpired that everyone on Earth was controlled by one or another of a sort of invisible galactic parasite.

Bolero · Sep 23, 2014

Regarding Dragons - three books to read for different takes on dragons, one medievalish, two in urban fantasy (suggestions just as idea churners, entertaining way to fit things in - and because I like them...)

Barbara Hambly - Dragonsbane
RA MacAvoy - Tea with the Black Dragon
Tanya Huff - Enchantment Emporium

Once! · Sep 24, 2014

Don't explain your monsters.

If we go right back to Bram Stoker's Dracula, part of the terror came from the fact that we didn't know what he was capable of - or what could be done to stop him.

All too often modern monsters come with a helpful FAQ - they have superpowers A, B and C, they have weaknesses X,Y and Z and they are called the Squiggledebops. Or whatever. And it's all very neat and packaged and computer-gamey.

As far as I am concerned, something will scare me more if I don't know what is going to happen next. As soon as something is explained and documented it stops being so frightening. The original Dracula. The alien in ... ahem ... Alien.

Show me what happens when some new and unidentified monster starts doing something nasty. Give me panic, confusion, incorrect theories, the unknown. I don't know what it's called, I don't know what it can do, I don't know how to fight it ... I don't know what made that scraping noise behind me.

A little part of me shrivels and dies when I get to that part in a book where an exposition character says ... "We are the Gungaflops. We have been living hidden in your civilization for centuries..."

Then all the suspense seems to drain away in the glare of Wikipedia-style exposition. It's a bit like a tick-box form that all monsters have to complete:

Are you allergic to ...

Sunlight? YES/NO
Water - plain? YES/NO
Water - holy? YES/NO
Earth germs? YES/NO
Garlic? YES/NO
No anti virus software and an alien operating system compatible with Windows 95? YES/NO

Vampies are overdone...other dark races?

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