When the token feature stops being one... for no reason at all

Little Anonymous Me

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I think it's an interesting question. I have three gay POV characters in my books, and my beta said, "Isn't that a lot?". I replied, "Don't I have a lot of straight people?" She thought about it for a second, decided I was right, and is now enthusiastically pushing for a romance arc between Characters B and C. I think (at least, I hope) that a lot of readers will react like my beta did when the question is turned around. Many people haven't ever been asked to consider why they think anyone non-white or straight or skinny is "unusual" in stories, and getting people to think is never bad. :)


Also, I was surprised to see that I was the only one who thought Ford Prefect was very much Not White. I've read them recently, but I can't remember if he was described or not. I seem to recall Zaphod being...blond?
 

Hapax Legomenon

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What irked me about that was that they made Watson female, not Holmes. Watson in the stories is the one who writes up Holmes's adventures and talks about how intelligent Holmes is, and is himself sort of generally in the background in terms of personality. Making Watson female is hardly subversive casting.

Watson has been written many, many different ways -- Kate Beaton wrote a couple comics on it. While a female Holmes would likely be newer than a female Watson, I can definitely say that Lucy Liu's Watson is not characterized the way described.
 

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To be fair to the Sherlock Holmes fandom, they seemed to hate everything about Elementary, not just Watson. The characterization of Holmes as a washed-up drug addict living in America, for example.

I want to believe they'd accept Joan Watson if the main plot was more accurate to the stories, but given the way fandom operates a lot of female characters get hate just by existing...
 

Calliea

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To be fair to the Sherlock Holmes fandom, they seemed to hate everything about Elementary, not just Watson. The characterization of Holmes as a washed-up drug addict living in America, for example.

I want to believe they'd accept Joan Watson if the main plot was more accurate to the stories, but given the way fandom operates a lot of female characters get hate just by existing...

It irked me :D And not because I don't like women in fiction. I just really dislike changing established characters/reinventing them this way. To me Holmes and Watson are men, so it will annoy me if they're turned to women. And any canon-female character made into a guy would annoy me just as much :)
 

Hapax Legomenon

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To be fair to the Sherlock Holmes fandom, they seemed to hate everything about Elementary, not just Watson. The characterization of Holmes as a washed-up drug addict living in America, for example.

I want to believe they'd accept Joan Watson if the main plot was more accurate to the stories, but given the way fandom operates a lot of female characters get hate just by existing...

Well the "unique" thing about Elementary as compared to the other Sherlock Holmes adaptations is that it's very much an American Cop Show, following the formula (A crime plot + B "personal" plot, two twists in plot A, wrapped up neatly by the end) pretty exactly in all but a handful of episodes. It's hard to say that that's "bad" or "wrong," considering the Sherlock Holmes stories pretty much invented the genre and shows that follow the American Cop Show tend to be extremely successful (CSI, NCIS, House, etc), but if you can't stand American Cop Shows, then you're going to hate Elementary.

Different interpretations of Sherlock Holmes play up different parts of his character. I guess the other unique thing about Elementary is that it took Holmes's cocaine usage and ran with it -- most adaptations ignore it or turn it down (ex in Sherlock, Holmes is shown using nicotene patches a couple times). Even originally the cocaine was supposed to be a not serious part of his character considering the time period.

I don't get what's wrong with the characters of something that's public domain being changed around. And considering Dr. Watson's roles in the story, what's so essentially male about him, anyway? I mean, Dr. Watson's "role" is to be the "everyman," the one we relate to while we see Mr. Holmes's antics. So in Elementary we're asking people to relate to an Asian-American woman instead of a white British dude.
 
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Buffysquirrel

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Also, I was surprised to see that I was the only one who thought Ford Prefect was very much Not White. I've read them recently, but I can't remember if he was described or not. I seem to recall Zaphod being...blond?

As I say, I have no idea about the books. I've only read the first one and that was a long time ago. I'm much more familiar with the radio series and the tv series, and in the first you couldn't see Ford and in the second he was white :).
 

Little Anonymous Me

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As I say, I have no idea about the books. I've only read the first one and that was a long time ago. I'm much more familiar with the radio series and the tv series, and in the first you couldn't see Ford and in the second he was white :).

You just inspired me to try and hunt down the show, and Netflix doesn't have it. Boo. :(

I've tried to figure out for a while if the movie may have somehow infiltrated my brain and made the Ford in my mind look like the actor (as the film was released several years before I read the books), but there's no way of figuring that one out. I really want to hunt for his description now. I remember that there was one somewhere (and it was something beyond him being tall), but I don't know which book it was. Hmm.

I don't think I can reread all five in a manner timely enough for this thread though. :tongue
 
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I really liked Sherlock, but Elementary I didn't care for. I'm not in general a fan of public domain retellings/reboots/etc. Crossing media lines, yes. But just a plain remake, not so much. I think most of the time you could have a better show by having an original story and characters.

I think Sherlock picked much more interesting aspects of the show to mess with/update.


I really liked the female Watson idea, actually. But the show in general didn't impress me.


I don't consider myself part of the main Sherlock Holmes Fandom, though.
 

Roxxsmom

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However, might you not have the cart before the horse on that latter? Assuming you're right and most people have an easier time relating to white men (not sure I agree), are you sure we use straight white men so often because they're easiest to relate to, and it's not that white men are easiest to relate to because they're so overwhelmingly often the ones we've been given, so we were forced to learn to relate to them?

Exactly, but when someone says they think it would be helpful if more authors considered writing more diversity into their stories, someone inevitably screams about mind control and forced political statements in fiction. Because, you know, having nothing but white (and straight and able bodied) characters in a story isn't also a form of mind control or making a forced political statement.

Probably. But would Indian readers of a story set in India assume the characters are light skinned vs dark skinned? From what I understand (and granted I could definitely be wrong) that's the better analog to American racial discussions and attitudes in literature.

Actually, people in India are very biased in favor of whiter skin, to the point where cosmetics that bleach one's skin are quite popular there. Which illustrates the point that these preferences are not just about what is most common in a society, but about which group of people have been most powerful and influential in that culture's history.

This isn't going to change without a little concerted effort. The conflict really comes down to whether or not one is mostly okay with the way things are and have been and therefore wants this to continue indefinitely.

No one is saying that the only way to do this is to write a novel where everyone is black, or gay, or where genders are completely flipped or whatever (though if someone wants to, sure), but geez, aren't we imaginative enough to envision a historical or real-world setting with at least as much diversity as is/was really present, and aren't we imaginative enough to envision a fantasy or SF society where there's more of a mix of people that we saw in classic works like Tolkien?
 
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Reziac

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I enjoy a well-done romance, but love and sex get shoe-horned into every show, every movie, and every book, even when they're superfluous to the plot, and I'm tired of it.

Argh, same here. I am not really interested in the first place, and am damned bored with "and now we'll pause for the obligatory romantic interlude" with violins and roses. I'm ever so tempted to poke the horny couple with the thorns. "You two! Enough of that!! Back to work!!!"

When I was a young adult, I discovered the band Rush, and one of the things that really drew me to them was the fact they had such damned interesting lyrics -- which were pretty much never about love or desire.

Same here with what I listen to (back then new wave and punk, nowadays industrial and aggrotech, which are seldom about sex or romance) -- it's NOT "My baby wants to rock, my baby wants to roll, all night long" which frankly I never want to hear again. Same with TV. Some of the appeal of Stargate was that people just did their damn jobs without making eyes at each other whenever the current panic allowed. In fact those episodes with a little romance, I'd peg as the weakest.

White, westerners will tend to imagine people as white (and male in the absence of any gender cues) if race is not specified.

There was a study some decades ago that looked at choices in marriage partners vs skin shade. It found that compared to their own shade, men tended to pick lighter-skinned women, but women tended to pick darker-skinned men. It was interesting because it wasn't a single shift, but rather a circular continuum, and the tendency was not cultural, but rather was common worldwide. Meaning it's human nature, not "imitate the white man".

This little piece is illustrative, if silly (and kind of icky-cauliflower skin. Ew).
http://www.buzzfeed.com/hnigatu/if-white-characters-were-described-like-people-of-color-in-l#2crq9r0

Oh, I've seen plenty of such descriptions for white males and females -- her sugar mounds, his candy stick, and various other food fetish body parts.

As the others have said. White, straight, cisgendered, able bodied males are largely regarded as "normal, default human beings" that anyone can and should be able to relate to.

If I read something set in Africa, or China, or North Dakota, I'm going to assume the majority are some sort of black, or oriental, or white, respectively. I'd say if the reader assumes "all white males" it's either a lack of experience in the reader (people with little experience, like kids, aren't going to assume something they don't know about) or it's a failure by the writer to get the picture across (eg. it's set in the Congo but it reads like London).

Tho if it matters to the story, I might want a little more to go on. No race is physically homogenous; Africans in particular have a wide range of physique (rather more than Caucasians).

But is there any reason not to have a realistic mixes of phenotypes in a fantasy world, just like there are in ours?

I became so irked at this whole thing that I have no physically defined "races" at all in my universe.

It's a problem for the kids, who are just as American as I am, who grow up rarely seeing anyone like them in books, TV, and movies

Not true at present; quite the reverse. In America, blacks and other nonwhites are represented in advertising, television, and film at more than double their percentage by population. (I can't find the numbers offhand but IIRC blacks are around 12% of the U.S. population, but are nearly 30% of the faces in ads and such; Asians are around 4% pop. and 10% of the faces in ads.)

The attitude I've observed (having lived 28 years near that well-mixed pot, Los Angeles) is that PoC are so "ordinary" in the average person's perceptions as to go unnoticed. If you don't think of $Random_Person as "different" in the first place, why would you imagine $Random_Person as looking other than yourself?


Aren't they adorable? And a very interesting example of how pigment accents features -- if they had the same pigment, they'd look almost identical.

And not because I don't like women in fiction. I just really dislike changing established characters/reinventing them this way.

Same here. Irks me no end. If you want to make a new character in your own image, feel free, but don't muck about with one that's well-established. (Mind you I had no problem with The Seven-Per-Cent Solution, but all it did was extrapolate from the established Holmes.)

Exactly, but when someone says they think it would be helpful if more authors considered writing more diversity into their stories, someone inevitably screams about mind control and forced political statements in fiction. Because, you know, having nothing but white (and straight and able bodied) characters in a story isn't also a form of mind control or making a forced political statement.

I don't give two flips what diversity is (or isn't) in your story, if you just let them be whoever they are. But when you slap me in the face with One Of Each, I'm going to wallbang your book.

This was a special irritation with Lost In Trek ST:Voyager, where the cast was real obviously One Of Everything To Demonstrate Diversity.

Actually, people in India are very biased in favor of whiter skin, to the point where cosmetics that bleach one's skin are quite popular there.

Ditto medieval Persia (and Japan, IIRC), which hardly had a "white mentor" to copy. See the study I mentioned above. (It was from Before Internet which may be why I couldn't find it online, but I vaguely recall it was from some major university.) This isn't just an "imitate the whites" thing; it seems to be an instinctive human thing. I expect it originated with our primitive forebears as "successful female never has to go hunting" and "successful male spends a lot of time hunting", thus was a selection by the level of sun-protective skin pigment.
 

Hapax Legomenon

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Well if you have primitive forebears where the men go hunting and the women gather food and stuff, your women are still going to be just as tanned as their menfolk because gathering food was also an outside activity. Women tend to have less melanin in their skin anyway across races so possibly the whole skin-bleaching thing for women is an exaggeration of this.
 

Reziac

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Well if you have primitive forebears where the men go hunting and the women gather food and stuff, your women are still going to be just as tanned as their menfolk because gathering food was also an outside activity. Women tend to have less melanin in their skin anyway across races so possibly the whole skin-bleaching thing for women is an exaggeration of this.

But doesn't explain why females generally preferred darker males. And gathering is more likely to be under some cover from trees, while hunting is more likely to be out in the unshaded grass. I'd guess the preference developed about the same time early humans lost most of their body hair.
 

Hapax Legomenon

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But doesn't explain why females generally preferred darker males. And gathering is more likely to be under some cover from trees, while hunting is more likely to be out in the unshaded grass. I'd guess the preference developed about the same time early humans lost most of their body hair.

If women tend to have lighter skin than men, then conversely men tend to have darker skin than women. So that explains it, yes.

You're also making a lot of assumptions about the environs of huntergatherers. You hunt and gather where you can hunt and gather.
 

Roxxsmom

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But doesn't explain why females generally preferred darker males. And gathering is more likely to be under some cover from trees, while hunting is more likely to be out in the unshaded grass. I'd guess the preference developed about the same time early humans lost most of their body hair.

If it's truly biological and not cultural, I'd guess that it has to do with the idea that women who don't have to work is a sign of status and wealth. Light skinned women must be from prosperous families, since they don't have to be outside picking food all day. Or maybe it means they were so good at some craft that they could spend most of their time in the shade weaving or whatever. Maybe wealthy women were able to have more children.

Though in most species, females are the choosier sex, since they put more resources into each offspring. I've always wondered why human males are so picky about the way women look, actually (women seem to spend a lot more time and energy prettifying themselves than men do in most cultures).

Interesting that in the later 20th century, this got turned around though, at least in the US. Tans were (and still are, judging from all the tanning salons that are still in business in spite of the widespread knowledge of how bad it is for you) all the rage for women of European descent. So it doesn't seem like a preference for light-skinned women is hard wired.

Eye surgery to make a single lidded eye double lidded is also popular in Asian countries (I believe it is more so with women than men).

http://www.wjla.com/articles/2013/1...e-surgery-popular-around-the-world-96568.html

I'm not sure what biological reason could be given for that.

Not true at present; quite the reverse. In America, blacks and other nonwhites are represented in advertising, television, and film at more than double their percentage by population. (I can't find the numbers offhand but IIRC blacks are around 12% of the U.S. population, but are nearly 30% of the faces in ads and such; Asians are around 4% pop. and 10% of the faces in ads.)

As for the representation in books thing, the sources I've been seeing say that books continue to under represent people of color. I've certainly never seen any statistic that suggests African American people (or any other minority group) are represented in books 2x more than in society as a whole.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/2013/06/25/193174358/as-demographics-shift-kids-books-stay-stubbornly-white


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgLgM9yEJ98

http://host.madison.com/entertainme...cle_88cd3676-e30e-11e1-9c51-001a4bcf887a.html

Anyway, why is it so irritating to people for writers to pay a little conscious attention to these inequalities? And why is flipping the gender of a support character in a public domain story (Sherlock Holmes, for God's sake) that has been done and overdone so many times and in so many ways that producers are probably scrambling to come up with a fresh take on it that won't bore the viewers to tears.

Is it really any less out there than steampunk Sherlock, or sociopathic Sherlock, or modern-era Sherlock, or drug addict Sherlock or whatever?

Is this any more out there than productions of Shakespeare plays that depart from the original canon in some way?

And why is including people who aren't white, male, or straight in stories seen as "making an irritating statement," when defaulting to white, straight, male not seen as making an irritating statement?
 
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Hapax Legomenon

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Roxx, this doesn't have anything to do with influence of beauty standards, but a lot of what we consider gendered behavior has little to nothing to do with attracting a mate and everything to do with status among one's own gender.
 

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I enjoy a well-done romance, but love and sex get shoe-horned into every show, every movie, and every book, even when they're superfluous to the plot, and I'm tired of it.

They keep doing this when filming PKD and I'm seriously tired of that.
 

Reziac

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And why is including people who aren't white, male, or straight in stories seen as "making an irritating statement," when defaulting to white, straight, male not seen as making an irritating statement?

Apparently this "default" is only blameworthy when it's assumed to be a straight white male. If a Chinese author writing a story set in China assumes all the characters are Chinese, is that not the very same thing?

It's irritating when they make good and damn sure you are aware that they've done so, because they're Educating The Reader That We Can Do It Too, or Look How Enlightened We Are (or its inverse), rather than because it was the natural choice for that character (or perhaps just the happenstance for that character).

I like characters of all and whatever sorts... but I don't like them being put on parade in the name of Representation. If I see that, it goes back on the shelf.



[Stumps off muttering about this is why we only write about aliens, who don't like your assumptions either.]
 
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Apparently this "default" is only blameworthy when it's assumed to be a straight white male. If a Chinese author writing a story set in China assumes all the characters are Chinese, is that not the very same thing?

It's irritating when they make good and damn sure you are aware that they've done so, because they're Educating The Reader That We Can Do It Too, or Look How Enlightened We Are (or its inverse), rather than because it was the natural choice for that character (or perhaps just the happenstance for that character).

I like characters of all and whatever sorts... but I don't like them being put on parade in the name of Representation. If I see that, it goes back on the shelf.



[Stumps off muttering about this is why we only write about aliens, who don't like your assumptions either.]


Shoe-horned diversity is annoying, yes.

But the percentage of Han Chinese in China is something like 92% of the population, and ten times larger than the next largest ethnic group.


In America, it's 72% white, and African Americans actually outnumber all but German and Irish in terms of size. If we differentiate between Hispanic and non-Hispanic whites, it's actually only 63% of the population.

And yet characters in stories are often disproportionately non-Hispanic whites. That's the objection. That's what makes it frustrating when every non-White character is asked to justify their existence.


Diversity in modern, mainstream entertainment has been getting much better, but we still haven't outgrown the historical disparities.
 

Aggy B.

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I think I have an example for you here - I didn't watch it, but from what I know, one of the American movie adaptation of Sherlock Holmes that came out lately (there were 2, no? I'm unsure, apologies), featured... female Watson. So Sherlock had someone to pursue romantically. Or whatever :D

It irked me :D And not because I don't like women in fiction. I just really dislike changing established characters/reinventing them this way. To me Holmes and Watson are men, so it will annoy me if they're turned to women. And any canon-female character made into a guy would annoy me just as much :)

Moriarty is also a woman in Elementary. Which, quite frankly, is not a remake of anything. Aside from some general character plots (Moriarty is a nemesis, Lestrad shows up for a few episodes) there's very little resemblance to the original stories. (Unlike the recent BBC Sherlock which reimagined the original stories in a contemporary setting.)

I think the thing that is most confusing (and appealing) about Elementary is that you don't know exactly where the story or the characters are going. Watson starts off as a live-in aide to keep Holmes sober after he nearly destroys himself with a heroine addiction. Gradually she and Holmes become friends and he offers her a kind of apprenticeship that begins to move toward them being equals (if not equal in talent).

More on topic, I don't write for folks who need me to justify why any character is the way they are. I tend to write female protags, but also males when I feel like it. However, lately I've been working hard to focus on the stories that have female protags, PoC and queer folk. Because I want to see better diversity in SF/F fiction.

I also write about folks falling in love while saving the world from evil. Because I've seen that argument that characters in relationships is totes unrealistic and can't be taken seriously.

But none of it needs to be justified because that's just who the characters are. If folks have a problem with it there are plenty of books out there that default to or even celebrate straight white cis abled men.

Aggy, perverse
 

Reziac

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...a heroine addiction.

This is the funniest and most perfectly appropriate spello I've seen in ages :D


My other MC, whom I haven't written about in ages but has lots of stories, was a middle-aged gay male more or less white but probably with some Pacific Islander in him. 400 years and several planets from now, who knows??
 
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Samsonet

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I liked Elementary. There were so many differences from the original Holmes stories, though, that I'd say Joan isn't so much a female Watson as she is a female named Watson. If that makes sense. The fandom had bigger problems with her than just her gender/race.

I don't think it Joan would have gotten as much backlash as she did if the show was presented as a fully original series. People don't ask why Doctor Brennan or Detective Benson are women.
 

ClareGreen

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For the average Brit, at least, having a tan was a sign of status when air travel really took off - it meant you could afford to go abroad on holiday. It's not as much of a status symbol as it was, partly due to cheaper fares, but for those who copy the crowd a tan is just part of the makeup. (Sometimes literally. I never will forget the girl who'd fake tan her face and forget her neck.)
 

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Eye surgery to make a single lidded eye double lidded is also popular in Asian countries (I believe it is more so with women than men).

http://www.wjla.com/articles/2013/1...e-surgery-popular-around-the-world-96568.html

I'm not sure what biological reason could be given for that.

With all due respect, natural double eyelids are just as common as monolids in east Asia. How come it's rare to hear someone suggest that white women are trying to look black, or what have you, when they tan, use bronzer, fill their lips, or get butt implants? I know you're not trying to be unkind, and I do believe colonialism's effects will remain indefinitely, but why is it almost always one way with these sorts of comments?
 

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Apparently this "default" is only blameworthy when it's assumed to be a straight white male. If a Chinese author writing a story set in China assumes all the characters are Chinese, is that not the very same thing?

Is the population of Western countries like USA and Britain all white cis straight and male? I think not, somehow--they wouldn't last long. In the USA, there are more females than males, so if anyone's the 'default', women are.

ETA: And what about a film like The Eagle, where all the female characters are shoehorned out for 'time and space' reasons yet another white male character can be shoehorned in?
 
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