• Basic Writing questions is not a crit forum. All crits belong in Share Your Work

"Let's talk about adverbs in dialogue tags," she said suggestively

Status
Not open for further replies.

amrose

is Envy Augustine
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 30, 2010
Messages
1,239
Reaction score
177
Location
The Normandy
This is my new motto.

Someone in another adverd thread said "adverbs are autotune for writers."

Loved that. Should have given points for it.

I don't mind them here and there. Everywhere? Bleh.
 

theneffzoo

Pressure makes diamonds
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 18, 2010
Messages
98
Reaction score
3
Location
Nose down in my laptop
or

Mea culpa, Jaksen. :e2paperba I do tend to roll eyes and drop eyes. You can say, "He raised his eyes to Heaven," or "She looked down," but I really don't think there's anything wrong with rolling them or dropping them or fixing them on something, any more than with folding arms or curling up in a chair. Or, for that matter, sinking hearts or stomach clutches. You have to have some way to say these things.

Or you can give a 'sarcastic upward glance'. = )
 

Rhubix

New kid, critique harshly!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 10, 2010
Messages
388
Reaction score
71
Location
Toronto via Newfoundland
I finished an ly pass on my wip last night. It was just about as scary as you can get! I rid myself of about 250 of them (word count is 45k). It led me to realize how often I type (and say) the words certainly and lovely.
I'm going to write some more before I do my that pass -- she shuttered.
 

whacko

Keeping up with the class
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 20, 2010
Messages
1,209
Reaction score
177
Location
Glasgow
Hey KC,

I've got to admit, I use adverbs all the time. But generally to add rhythm or make a sentence more lyrical.

In saying that, the example you used...

"You know I love you," he said coldly.

is miles away from

"You know I love you," he said softly.

Can become, using the show not tell rule of thumb...

"Course I loves you. I married you didn't I?"

Which Ollie Reed, as Bill Sykes, we're on the film version of Oliver Twist here, muttered to Nancy just before killing her.

So the trick is not to use to lazy adverbs. And I'm still trying to master that myself.:D

Regards

Whacko
 

heza

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 13, 2010
Messages
4,328
Reaction score
829
Location
Oklahoma
As writers, we should be allowed to write all the adverbs we want in first draft. However, in rewrites, we need to examine every adverb and adjective to see if they've earned their places in the storytelling, instead of being a crutch or a lazy step.

Sometimes, I'll actually do this the opposite way. I'll start a scene with just the dialog (talking heads), and then I'll go back through and add just enough dialog tags, action beats, etc. so that you can see the scene and figure out who is talking. And then, if tone is still not clear, I'll add more details and sometimes, adverbs.
 

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
43,746
Reaction score
8,652
Location
Los Angeles
Website
www.amazon.com
I don't see this, Ray. Most of the 'readers' I know don't consider adverbs to be a problem, and they certainly don't make assumptions about the writer being lazy or lame for using adverbs. They just enjoy the story.

What makes you think readers feel the way you say?

Because I know enough readers who do. Those who, for example, enjoyed JK Rowling's HP series but also NOTICED the overuse of adverbs. In truth the adverbs are not the only problem. Sometimes when a writer uses too many adverbs, there are other problems such as weak dialogue to begin with, too much tell instead of show, weak word choices, etc. It doesn't mean the story isn't good, or the work is not publishable -- some authors are selling millions and millions of their copies, even though most people wouldn't call them "great writers." But it doesn't mean they can't write better than relying on adverbs as crutches. There's no reason to write "ran fast" or "said angrily."

YMMV. Use adverbs if you want. It's really none of my business.
 

RobJ

Banned
Joined
Aug 20, 2006
Messages
2,678
Reaction score
306
Because I know enough readers who do. Those who, for example, enjoyed JK Rowling's HP series but also NOTICED the overuse of adverbs. In truth the adverbs are not the only problem. Usually when a writer uses too many adverbs, there are other things such as weak dialogue to begin with, too much tell instead of show, weak word choices, etc. It doesn't mean the story isn't good -- some authors are selling millions and millions of their copies, even though most people wouldn't call them "great writers."
Seriously. You're using JK Rowling as an example of the pitfalls of using adverbs?
 

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
43,746
Reaction score
8,652
Location
Los Angeles
Website
www.amazon.com
Can become, using the show not tell rule of thumb...

"Course I loves you. I married you didn't I?"

Which Ollie Reed, as Bill Sykes, we're on the film version of Oliver Twist here, muttered to Nancy just before killing her.

So the trick is not to use to lazy adverbs. And I'm still trying to master that myself.:D

Excellent example. The context, character, etc. leave no confusion to how the line was said. The irony is followed by the character's action. This is more vivid storytelling than "he said coldly."
 

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
43,746
Reaction score
8,652
Location
Los Angeles
Website
www.amazon.com
Seriously. You're using JK Rowling as an example of the pitfalls of using adverbs?

Yes. Even Rowling herself said her (earlier) books would be stronger without the adverbs. She used far fewer adverbs in her later books in the series and generally people admit her writing was stronger.

I used Rowling because her story and characters were strong and compensated for her overuse of adverbs, not BECAUSE of the adverbs. What, do you rather me use an obscure writer who's stuck in slush pile to make my point? Just head off to the slushkiller and you shall see plenty of examples.

Like I said, Rob, go ahead and use adverbs to your heart's desire. It's really none of my business. We can agree to disagree right now without that personal jabs.
 

RobJ

Banned
Joined
Aug 20, 2006
Messages
2,678
Reaction score
306
Yes. Even Rowling herself said her (earlier) books would be stronger without the adverbs. She used far fewer adverbs in her later books in the series and generally people admit her later books are stronger.

I used Rowling because her story and characters were strong and compensated for her overuse of adverbs, not BECAUSE of the adverbs. What, do you rather me use an obscure writer who's stuck in slush pile to make my point? Just head off to the slushkiller and you shall see plenty of examples.

Like I said, Rob, go ahead and use adverbs to your heart's desire. It's really none of my business. We can agree to disagree right now without that personal jabs.
I didn't make any personal jabs, Ray.

I don't find using Rowling to illustrate the pitfalls of using adverbs at all convincing, given her wealth from writing.
 

jaksen

Caped Codder
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 6, 2010
Messages
5,117
Reaction score
526
Location
In MA, USA, across from a 17th century cemetery
Mea culpa, Jaksen. :e2paperba I do tend to roll eyes and drop eyes. You can say, "He raised his eyes to Heaven," or "She looked down," but I really don't think there's anything wrong with rolling them or dropping them or fixing them on something, any more than with folding arms or curling up in a chair. Or, for that matter, sinking hearts or stomach clutches. You have to have some way to say these things.

I love it when someone rolls their eyes across the room, (which I have seen written that way.) I imagine someone removing their eyeballs from their eye sockets and bowling them across the room. It's probably an appropriate image, if one is reading a zombie epic.

:D

Okay, back to adverbs ...
 

mscelina

Teh doommobile, drivin' rite by you
Requiescat In Pace
Registered
Joined
Jan 18, 2007
Messages
20,006
Reaction score
5,352
Location
Going shopping with Soccer Mom and Bubastes for fu
Wealth is not synonymous with good writing.

And no pitchforks, please. I like Rowling. Every writer has their pitfalls, even the wealthy ones. And a lot of best-selling writers, like Rowling, could really benefit from a strong editor.

That being said, adverbs are usually paired with weak predicates. Dialogue tags are usually unnecessary, especially in a conversation between only two characters where they only slow down the pace of the narrative. Good, tight writing requires (1) strong predicates and (2) a swift-moving narrative. Ergo...while adverbs and dialogue tags are not 'bad' in and of themselves, every writer should go through while revising and determine how necessary each use really is. So we really need a litany of 'he said coldly' and 'she said weakly?' For that matter, do we really need the 'he said' 'she said' most of the time?

Every writer finds a voice that works for them. But for that voice to reach the printed page, it needs to meet the requirements of the editors looking for manuscripts. And editors, by and large, will find overuse of adverbs/dialogue tags a detriment to the manuscript as a whole.
 

quicklime

all out of fucks to give
Banned
Joined
Jul 15, 2010
Messages
8,967
Reaction score
2,074
Location
wisconsin
I didn't make any personal jabs, Ray.

I don't find using Rowling to illustrate the pitfalls of using adverbs at all convincing, given her wealth from writing.


Dan Brown and the guy who wrote Bridges of Madison County are also rich.....do you consider them the pinnacle of writing?

Writers with bad, or even terrible habits can still tell compelling stories, suggesting Rowling is somehow bulletproof because of sales figures, especially when she herself has admitted to her faults, seems a bit silly
 

jaksen

Caped Codder
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 6, 2010
Messages
5,117
Reaction score
526
Location
In MA, USA, across from a 17th century cemetery
I finished an ly pass on my wip last night. It was just about as scary as you can get! I rid myself of about 250 of them (word count is 45k). It led me to realize how often I type (and say) the words certainly and lovely.
I'm going to write some more before I do my that pass -- she shuttered.

Rubix, I do this, too. When I am fairly certain I am finished with a chapter I do an 'ly' search. I manage to eliminate a good number of the 'ly' words, but not all. I will also replace with a phrase sometimes (as some of you have suggested on this thread.)

But I will also keep those I think really, truly belong there. One of my big ly words is only. I also seem to like simply and merely. But not all adverbs end in 'ly,' there are others to watch out for, too. Not all adverbs are found as dialogue tags. There are adverbs of manner, place, purpose, frequency and time.
 

RobJ

Banned
Joined
Aug 20, 2006
Messages
2,678
Reaction score
306
Dan Brown and the guy who wrote Bridges of Madison County are also rich.....do you consider them the pinnacle of writing?
I wouldn't use them to illustrate the pitfalls of using adverbs. It's not much of a pitfall if you achieve commercial success. It has nothing to do with the pinnacle of writing, no-one has suggested that about them or about Rowling.

Writers with bad, or even terrible habits can still tell compelling stories, suggesting Rowling is somehow bulletproof because of sales figures, especially when she herself has admitted to her faults, seems a bit silly
Again, no-one has suggested that Rowling is bulletproof, so no-one is being silly as far as I can see. We're talking about the pitfalls of using adverbs.
 

Sarah Madara

Freeway stomper extraordinaire
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 25, 2010
Messages
1,062
Reaction score
154
Location
Procrastination Nation
Nothing is all bad, of course, but in my mind, there are far better ways to show what the adverb is saying.

For instance:

"You know I love you," he said coldly.

What about:

"You know I love you," he said, his voice hard.


I brought this up in another thread and got lambasted for lazy writing. Admittedly, my example was horrible, but it was the same principle. (I contrasted "she said sarcastically" with "she said, her voice dripping with sarcasm." Not good writing, I know.) Anyway, lots of responses all told me that the second was even worse than the first.

I catch myself using "her voice..." clauses to avoid adverbs. Once in a while it's appropriate, but most of the time it's just an adverb-avoidance cheat. I think ultimately those clauses have the same potential value and potential pitfalls as adverbs.
 

quicklime

all out of fucks to give
Banned
Joined
Jul 15, 2010
Messages
8,967
Reaction score
2,074
Location
wisconsin
I wouldn't use them to illustrate the pitfalls of using adverbs. It's not much of a pitfall if you achieve commercial success. It has nothing to do with the pinnacle of writing, no-one has suggested that about them or about Rowling.


Again, no-one has suggested that Rowling is bulletproof, so no-one is being silly as far as I can see. We're talking about the pitfalls of using adverbs.


hmmm, so since they sold, there is nothing fundamentally wrong with brown's writings? interesting argument. perhaps they sold on other merits....just a hypothesis of course


to point out folks who succeeded DESPITE their weaknesses as carte blanche to do whatever you like is the silly part. Rowling hit it big DESPITE the fact her initial works ran on adverbs. Not because of it. Her work would have been stronger without.

So pointing to her and saying since she did it, adverbs must not be an issue is like pointing to a porsche and saying there is no reason any car can't go from zero to sixty in X seconds.....it diminished rowlings work but the rest of it was good enough to overcome that.

Most folks are not going to be that lucky, and if you like using adverbs that's perfectly fine, but it is indeed silly to deny the fact they weakened her work, and weaken anyone else's as well, if used to excess. She still cleared the hurdle, emulating her adverb usage with the defense "she did it" greatly increases the odds you will not.
 
Last edited:

quicklime

all out of fucks to give
Banned
Joined
Jul 15, 2010
Messages
8,967
Reaction score
2,074
Location
wisconsin
I don't see this, Ray. Most of the 'readers' I know don't consider adverbs to be a problem, and they certainly don't make assumptions about the writer being lazy or lame for using adverbs. They just enjoy the story.

What makes you think readers feel the way you say?


i'll give you that many casual readers will not. Many will, including most agents, editors, critics, etc......"gatekeeper" folks.


again with potter and other books, they succeeded despite, but why would you choose to saddle yourself with a greater likelihood of rejection and pissy reviews for the sake of holding to adverbs when they're not all that hard to kill in the first place?
 
Last edited:

RobJ

Banned
Joined
Aug 20, 2006
Messages
2,678
Reaction score
306
hmmm, so since they sold, there is nothing fundamentally wrong with brown's writings? interesting argument. perhaps they sold on other merits....just a hypothesis of course
I didn't say there was nothing fundamentally wrong with Brown's writing. You introduced Brown into the conversation, and I said I wouldn't use him to illustrate the pitfalls of using adverbs.

to point out folks who succeeded DESPITE their weaknesses as carte blanche to do whatever you like is the silly part. Rowling hit it big DESPITE the fact her initial works ran on adverbs. Not because of it. Her work would have been stronger without.
I didn't point out anyone and say carte blanche that you should do whatever you like. I said that I don't find using her (Rowling) to illustrate the pitfalls of using adverbs convincing.

So pointing to her and saying since she did it, adverbs must not be an issue is like pointing to a porsche and saying there is no reason any car can't go from zero to sixty in X seconds.....it diminished rowlings work but the rest of it was good enough to overcome that.
I didn't point to her and say that adverbs are not an issue. I said I don't find using her (Rowling) to illustrate the pitfalls of using adverbs convincing.

Most folks are not going to be that lucky, and if you like using adverbs that's perfectly fine, but it is indeed silly to deny the fact they weakened her work, and weaken anyone else's as well, if used to excess. She still cleared the hurdle, emulating her adverb usage with the defense "she did it" greatly increases the odds you will not.
I haven't denied that they weakened her work, or accepted it either. I said that I don't find using her (Rowling) to illustrate the pitfalls of using adverbs convincing.

That about covers it, quicklime. I made no grand claims about Rowling or Brown other than I wouldn't use them to illustrate the pitfalls of using adverbs, and they achieved commercial success. Using someone who has achieved mass sales and enormous wealth from their writing as an example of why not to use adverbs weakens the argument against adverbs.
 

heza

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 13, 2010
Messages
4,328
Reaction score
829
Location
Oklahoma
I might have misread him, but I thought Ray's original argument was that he knows readers who noticed the adverb abuse even in best-selling works, such as Rowling's. He went on to say that excessive adverbs don't necessary mean a great story won't sell anyway but that correcting the issue would only serve to help those works (as well as ours).
 

ishtar'sgate

living in the past
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 23, 2007
Messages
3,801
Reaction score
459
Location
Canada
Website
www.linneaheinrichs.com
Why the massive hate for adverbs in dialogue tags? Can it ever be done "right?"
For example,

"You know I love you," he said coldly.

is miles away from

"You know I love you," he said softly.

So. Adverbs in dialogue tags. All bad? Or can they work in certain cases?

I can't speak for anyone else but I think the reader deserves more than an adverb. They should SEE and FEEL the coldness or the softness.

For example, say the person the second guy is speaking to is crying and then it's his turn.

He gathered her into his arms and pressed his cheek next to hers, his breath warm against her face. "You know I love you."

This is pretty rough but the reader will know he isn't speaking in a cold voice but in soft tones without any dialogue tags at all.
 

dragonangel517

A.K.A CoffeeWench
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Messages
264
Reaction score
34
Location
Texas
I have never read a book and been distracted by adverbs to the point that it impaired my enjoyment. Seriously, anyone who does should just give up reading all together. I understand the premise of "less is more", but unless you are an editor or reveiwer, unclench and enjoy the "story". That's why people write fiction, to entertain. And if thats not why you are reading, why bother. I would hate to think that some one would not read and enjoy my story simply because they were to busy counting adverbs. Writing should be fun in my opinion.
 

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
43,746
Reaction score
8,652
Location
Los Angeles
Website
www.amazon.com
We're talking about writing here, however. Shouldn't the writer learn how to write better anyway? And if agents sneer at adverbs, shouldn't you be mindful of that if you're trying to get published?

I agree, story trumps it. But it doesn't mean we don't need to pay attention of the craft.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.