So should gun-owning school teachers carry their personal guns in the classroom?

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Several legislators (most notably, Rick Perry) are calling for school districts to allow their already-licensed-for-guns teachers the option of carrying their personal guns in the classroom.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/18/rick-perry-guns-in-schools_n_2322185.html

Rick Perry: Guns In Schools Should Be Decided By District

By Melissa Jeltsen -- 12/18/2012

... Perry expressed his continued support for gun rights, according to the Dallas Morning News, saying he believed people with concealed-handgun licenses "should be able to carry your handgun anywhere in this state,” and elicited applause when he spoke positively about a Texas school system that allows some staff members to come to school armed.

Perry was referring to the Harrold Independent School District, which, in 2008, became the first district in the country to permit teachers and staff to carry concealed weapons. Those participating in the program must hold concealed-carry licenses and be approved by the school board....


I am not real keen on this one. I was told by an Israeli national a few years ago (I have no proof/citation for this) that all Israeli school teachers are required to carry guns in the classroom. This Texas proposal is to allow teachers who are already gun owners, already licensed, and fully trained in gun safety, to carry their guns while they teach throughout the school day. Regardless of whether we're talking about the (unconfirmed) Israeli model of mandatory guns, or the Texas model of freedom-to-carry extended to fully trained gun-owner teachers, this whole notion is really kinda messing with my mind. I am a former school teacher AND also pro-Second Amendment. But this makes me uneasy. I'd rather there was a cop perpetually on duty at every school.
 

muravyets

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Says one of the men who even the most rightward end of the rightwing of the right-leaning party wouldn't make their presidential candidate. Like most of ideas endorsed by Rick Perry, this one is about as wrong as it can possibly get.

Based on both the differences between the US and Israel, and the results we see so far in Israel, I'd say adopting an Israeli-style siege mentality would be incredibly damaging to US society or any community in the US.
 

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Do schools in the U.S. have security guards? Are they armed?
 

Cella

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NO.



Teachers are there to educate, not body-guard our kids. Like they need one more - MASSIVE- responsibility. I'm all for exploring ways to promote safety in schools but this seems like a recipe for disaster to me.
 

veinglory

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A gun, especially a loaded accessible one, doesn't strike me as a good thing to have in a class full of kids. I would guess it introduces more risks than it reduces.
 

Roger J Carlson

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If someone is licensed to carry a concealed weapon to the park, the theatre, the grocery store, to church, etc., I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to carry it to school.
 

Kaiser-Kun

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I'm all for exploring ways to promote safety in schools but this seems like a recipe for disaster to me.

In Mexico we have shootout drills, in addition to earthquake and fire drills. They boil down to run and hide below something heavy, but they might help. Gladly, we haven't had any school rampage.
 

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If someone is licensed to carry a concealed weapon to the park, the theatre, the grocery store, to church, etc., I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to carry it to school.

I would suggest that the risk of potential access for kids might be a reason. Teachers are fairly regularly assaulted by teens. If they had a gun at the time they would face the options of using the gun, or letting the delinquent angry teen take it from them. Thus contributing to a school shooting occurring.
 

Williebee

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Harrold, TX

Population in 2000: 252

(The nearby -relatively speaking, county seat is Vernon, which, by the way has/had this lovely concert hall where travelling big bands and swing bands used to play. I was last there in 1990, with the US Navy Band for a community concert.)

DISD, (Dallas Independent School District) has more janitors than Harrold has citizens. The school district has more students than Wilbarger County has population.

When it comes to a discussion of rights vs. realities, Gov. Perry might as well be on Mars.
 
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Kaiser-Kun

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I'm a teacher and I've had plenty of things stolen when the kids gang around me. Kids are curious and I would have my attention very busy with the unruly mob to keep watching my gun.
 

Gretad08

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Do schools in the U.S. have security guards? Are they armed?


Many, if not most, do. I went to a large, suburban, low-crime high school. We had an armed police officer on campus at all times.

My mom is an elementary school teacher, and they have a D.A.R.E. officer on campus. Police presence this week has increased dramatically, but they were there even before the tragedy.

Coincidentally, last Wednesday they had an intruder drill, and the police officer was the one who announced it over the intercom. The kids were very nervous because it was unscheduled, and they were used to only hearing secretaries and principals on the P.A.
 

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Do schools in the U.S. have security guards? Are they armed?

Yes, some do. And some are.

Only two of the 18 in my rural county have "Safety officers" - actually local police officers who are assigned to the district, and only one officer per district. (A 1200 student High School and a 1700 student K-8.)
 

Williebee

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If someone is licensed to carry a concealed weapon to the park, the theatre, the grocery store, to church, etc., I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to carry it to school.

It would be more akin to the person licensed to carry or keep guns having 30-40 kids in their home every day for 7-8 hours, plus another 10-15 kids coming and going throughout the day, Roger.
 

Cella

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If someone is licensed to carry a concealed weapon to the park, the theatre, the grocery store, to church, etc., I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to carry it to school.

I guess the rationale is that a possible perpetrator might think, I don't want to go in there and shoot up a bunch of kids because one of the teachers MIGHT have a gun themselves, and I might get killed too, so I guess I won't do it.

Well, don't they generally kill themselves, anyway? I'm thinking mostly of the Columbine and CT incidents and ones like it. So by the time they're ready to do something this horrific I don't think their regard for their own lives is too high.

Grocery stores, theaters, the park, etc. those are places meant for the general public. You don't really know who you're going to encounter there because they're open to anyone. But at a school, it's guaranteed that one would encounter large amounts of children. Steps should absolutely be taken to see to their safety (maybe a trained armed security guard?) but your general "licensed" person is not necessarily well-equipped to handle that kind of responsibility, IMO.
 

Xelebes

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Do schools in the U.S. have security guards? Are they armed?

I live in Canada and yes we have them here. However, due to the cost of having them there and questionable effectiveness is seeing many police departments start to pull back like Edmonton and Toronto's police forces.
 

quickWit

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I had something for this...
If someone is licensed to carry a concealed weapon to the park, the theatre, the grocery store, to church, etc., I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to carry it to school.

Which is exactly why people shouldn't be licensed to carry concealed weapons to the park, the theatre, the grocery store, to church, etc.
 

Roger J Carlson

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It would be more akin to the person licensed to carry or keep guns having 30-40 kids in their home every day for 7-8 hours, plus another 10-15 kids coming and going throughout the day, Roger.
I'd suggest that if a teacher is not responsible enough to carry a concealed weapon in school, then he or she should not be responsible enough to carry anywhere. Conversely, if they are responsible enough to carry other places, they should be responsible enough to carry at school.
 

raburrell

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I don't recall seeing this brought up in the previous threads, and I'm saying this fully aware that I may get my head bitten off for saying it, but I'm less than convinced that everyone who claims to be a responsible gun owner actually is. It's one of those thing like driving - most of us think we're great drivers, but in reality, not so much. Case in point - I'm pretty sure Dick Cheney thought of himself as a responsible gun owner before he shot his friend in the face.

So yeah, to me, the simple fact that someone has a concealed carry permit doesn't mean they're really 'safe' in how they handle it around that many kids.
 

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I'd suggest that if a teacher is not responsible enough to carry a concealed weapon in school, then he or she should not be responsible enough to carry anywhere. Conversely, if they are responsible enough to carry other places, they should be responsible enough to carry at school.

Well, at least in the state of VA, responsibility doesn't play any role in who can obtain a carry permit.

I had one. It's expired. I probably won't renew it. It was something fun I did with my ex-husband. Taking the course.

Which was ridiculous. It consisted of a few classroom hours - that was mostly how to take apart, load, and clean a gun with a little bit of law thrown in - and shooting practice. We had a simple multiple-choice written test as well as a shooting test.

During the shooting test, the target was only 15 feet away. People were allowed to shoot sitting down with their arm and gun propped up on a pile of sandbags. We didn't have to shoot the target's center. all we had to do was form a grouping of 3-5 anywhere on the target.

No way to know how responsible anyone passing the test was. Or even how accurate with a gun.

ETA: My response to the OP is absolutely not. Way too much chance of a child stealing that gun or an unstable coworker or even of the teacher losing control in a moment of fury and taking action with the gun.
 

Cella

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I'd suggest that if a teacher is not responsible enough to carry a concealed weapon in school, then he or she should not be responsible enough to carry anywhere. Conversely, if they are responsible enough to carry other places, they should be responsible enough to carry at school.

So would this become part of their job description? Carrying a gun to protect oneself is different than carrying with the intention to protect others.

I mean, a police officer is sworn to protect and serve; their entire job revolves around that. They are trained and equipped to fulfill this role and compensated accordingly.


The thing is, those concealed carry classes/tests aren't that difficult. I have a permit to carry and so while legally I may be considered "responsible enough," that doesn't mean I have the experience using my weapon or the mental fortitude to use it to protect others with it. So I very rarely take it with me anywhere.
 

Roger J Carlson

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Well, I'm not particularly enthralled with the idea of a conceal carry weapons permits in the first place. But if you're going to have them, I don't see what makes schools particularly exempt. You can find groups of children anywhere and if a teacher was prone to losing his or her temper in school enough to use a gun, they'd be just as apt to do it anywhere.
 

Williebee

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I'd suggest that if a teacher is not responsible enough to carry a concealed weapon in school, then he or she should not be responsible enough to carry anywhere. Conversely, if they are responsible enough to carry other places, they should be responsible enough to carry at school.

I'd suggest you go volunteer in a public school for a year. Not being snarky, mind you. Merely stating that there are more elements at play here than an individual's responsibility. ETA: It is a different environment than the park, the theater, or any other public space. Most teachers will tell you that, at some point of every day, controlled chaos is the best they can hope for.