So should gun-owning school teachers carry their personal guns in the classroom?

Roger J Carlson

Moderator In Name Only
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 19, 2005
Messages
12,799
Reaction score
2,499
Location
West Michigan
I'd suggest you go volunteer in a public school for a year. Not being snarky, mind you. Merely stating that there are more elements at play here than an individual's responsibility. ETA: It is a different environment than the park, the theater, or any other public space. Most teachers will tell you that, at some point of every day, controlled chaos is the best they can hope for.
And what are your qualifications?

I went to college for my teaching certificate, did my student teaching, and substitute taught for 2 years (inner city and rural) before I decided I wasn't going to get a job as a teacher and went into industry. I know what a classroom is like. Subsitute teaching has all the bad aspects of teaching with none of the rewards.

But I don't actually see what that has to do with the discussion other than to marginalize my participation.
 

Williebee

Capeless, wingless, & yet I fly.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 11, 2007
Messages
20,569
Reaction score
4,814
Location
youtu.be/QRruBVFXjnY
Website
www.ifoundaknife.com
But I don't actually see what that has to do with the discussion other than to marginalize my participation.
Not intended to marginalize your participation at all, sir.

Point of fact, I think every eligible adult should volunteer in their local public schools in some way or another.

My qualifications? I'm in public schools (K-12) almost every day. Have been for the last twelve years. I am the Chief Technology Officer for an Illinois Regional Office of Education. I provide professional development and curriculum integrated technology education to staff and students of 50 public schools in downstate (read rural) Illinois -- in classrooms, in assemblies, in workshops and individually. I teach. I train. I collaborate. I engage and I learn.

The classroom environment is not what it was ten years ago, or even five.

Guns in school are no more realistic an option than "gun control" is a singular solution to the mass shootings that are plaguing our society.

But the only people, day in and day out, that "more guns" is a solution to anything for, is the people selling them and the related materials. Well, that and the folks selling emergency room medical supplies.

ETA: Oh, and-
Subsitute teaching has all the bad aspects of teaching with none of the rewards.
Amen to that. No benefits, no voice... but lots of blame.
 

Roger J Carlson

Moderator In Name Only
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 19, 2005
Messages
12,799
Reaction score
2,499
Location
West Michigan
Guns in school are no more realistic an option than "gun control" is a singular solution to the mass shootings that are plaguing our society.

But the only people, day in and day out, that "more guns" is a solution to anything for, is the people selling them and the related materials. Well, that and the folks selling emergency room medical supplies.
Okay then, back to the discussion.

It is not, nor ever has been, my contention that arming teachers is a realistic solution to mass shootings. All I have ever contended is that if a teacher is licensed to carry, he or she should be able to do so at school as well. To me is says "we trust you to carry a weapon in every other aspect of your life except your primary area of responsibility".
 

Unimportant

No COVID yet. Still masking.
Staff member
Moderator
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 8, 2005
Messages
19,533
Reaction score
22,766
Location
Aotearoa
When someone has a license to carry a concealed weapon, how big is the weapon (physically) and where/how do they conceal it? If you carry a concealed weapon, does it have to be on your person, or can it be in your purse or jacket pocket? What I'm getting at is, if teachers with concealed weapons permits were to take their weapons to school so as to protect children if necessary, would the students be able to see that the teacher had a gun shoved in their bra or whatever, and/or would they be able to look for a gun in the teacher's purse or jacket if the teacher had to unexpectedly leave the room?
 

robeiae

Touch and go
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 18, 2005
Messages
46,262
Reaction score
9,912
Location
on the Seven Bridges Road
Website
thepondsofhappenstance.com
All I have ever contended is that if a teacher is licensed to carry, he or she should be able to do so at school as well. To me is says "we trust you to carry a weapon in every other aspect of your life except your primary area of responsibility".

True enough. But then, I think that's a really strong argument to get rid of concealed carry: it's just a bad idea to have accessible guns around kids and since there are kids all over the place...

My home, my kids? Different story. I'm responsible--imo--for what happens there. I have a duty--to my kids--to secure any firearms in the house. But when my kids are out and about, in school, wherever, I have no control over everyone else.

Peace officers carry guns, but that IS a part of their job description. Everyone knows they have guns, kids included.
 

Williebee

Capeless, wingless, & yet I fly.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 11, 2007
Messages
20,569
Reaction score
4,814
Location
youtu.be/QRruBVFXjnY
Website
www.ifoundaknife.com
It is not, nor ever has been, my contention that arming teachers is a realistic solution to mass shootings. All I have ever contended is that if a teacher is licensed to carry, he or she should be able to do so at school as well. To me is says "we trust you to carry a weapon in every other aspect of your life except your primary area of responsibility".

That's an interesting point, and thank you for restating it such that I could grasp your meaning.

I'm not sure I agree with it. Any license comes with restrictions (whether it is for a gun, a car or a heating and air conditioning business) to comply with existing laws and standards.
 

Alpha Echo

I should be writing.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 11, 2008
Messages
9,615
Reaction score
1,852
Location
East Coast
When someone has a license to carry a concealed weapon, how big is the weapon (physically) and where/how do they conceal it? If you carry a concealed weapon, does it have to be on your person, or can it be in your purse or jacket pocket? What I'm getting at is, if teachers with concealed weapons permits were to take their weapons to school so as to protect children if necessary, would the students be able to see that the teacher had a gun shoved in their bra or whatever, and/or would they be able to look for a gun in the teacher's purse or jacket if the teacher had to unexpectedly leave the room?

It may depend on the state, but I know here, a concealed weapon can be anywhere on your person. The students may or may not be able to identify the weapon on a teacher. I would think it'd be easier to see a weapon on a female than a male, based on clothing.
 

Roger J Carlson

Moderator In Name Only
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 19, 2005
Messages
12,799
Reaction score
2,499
Location
West Michigan
True enough. But then, I think that's a really strong argument to get rid of concealed carry: it's just a bad idea to have accessible guns around kids and since there are kids all over the place...
I'm not a strong proponent of CCW. I don't own a hand gun and I'm not interested in carrying. Still, I'm not ready to say that no one should. I recognize that there are times and places and situations that are more dangerous than others, and in some of those situations, people may need weapons.

A teacher may need to travel into one of these bad situations as part of their daily lives. (Simply one possible situation.) If he or she has a need for that protection, I don't see why the right to carry must end at the school property line.

On the other hand, I don't think carrying just for the fun of carrying and feeling important is reason enough to have a CCW. But the law isn't good at judging motivations and individual circumstances. It wants black and white solutions, and I just see it as more complicated than a binary, no-one-should-carry vs. everyone-should-carry issue.
 

Gregg

Life is good
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 29, 2008
Messages
3,725
Reaction score
247
Age
77
Location
In my house on the river
I think a uniformed, armed "security officer" - well trained - would be a better deterrent than an anonymous teacher carrying a concealed weapon.

As it is now, would-be killers know they will not be seriously challenged if they enter a "gun-free school zone" while armed. But they might think twice if they knew they might face an armed guard.
 

ladyleeona

fluently sarcastic grandma offender
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 3, 2010
Messages
932
Reaction score
138
Location
wherever the Jose is.
It may depend on the state, but I know here, a concealed weapon can be anywhere on your person. The students may or may not be able to identify the weapon on a teacher. I would think it'd be easier to see a weapon on a female than a male, based on clothing.

Agreed. Assuming you wear a coat, concealing a weapon isn't going to be that difficult, but that generally makes it harder for women, given the wardrobe. And I don't know many male teachers (or college professors, for that matter) who wear sports coats on the regular. But I attended smaller schools.

I hate the idea of armed teachers. They're there to teach, period. They don't get paid near enough as it is. I do wish schools were required to have armed security guards, but funding for that...well, I have no idea where that would come from.

Unless...what if there was an additional tax applied to semi-automatic weapons sales (ARs and the like especially), particularly for this purpose? I'm a gun owner, CHL holder, general gun enthusiast, and I could easily get behind additional taxes for that sort of thing. Though I have very little idea as to whether or not it's constitutional. Or is even worth discussing.
 

blacbird

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 21, 2005
Messages
36,987
Reaction score
6,158
Location
The right earlobe of North America
Absolutely not. And I'm not in favor of concealed-carry laws, either. I'd prefer unconcealed-carry. Let's go back to the old west belt and holster days. I'd like to know who is walking around packing heat.

caw
 

veinglory

volitare nequeo
Self-Ban
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
28,750
Reaction score
2,933
Location
right here
Website
www.veinglory.com
Conditional trust is hardly a new thing. We trust people to drive except when drunk or over a certain speed limit, to shoot guns but not within city limits, to park on the side of the road but not when it snows, to own a dog but not a wolf-hybrid. Increased risk can be reflect by increased regulations without making it a personal insult.
 

Romantic Heretic

uncoerced
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 15, 2009
Messages
2,624
Reaction score
354
Website
www.romantic-heretic.com
I think a uniformed, armed "security officer" - well trained - would be a better deterrent than an anonymous teacher carrying a concealed weapon.

As it is now, would-be killers know they will not be seriously challenged if they enter a "gun-free school zone" while armed. But they might think twice if they knew they might face an armed guard.

Unless they're familiar with the school, or have cased it beforehand. In which case their first priority is going to be taking out the guard. Easy to do with some weapons like the P90 whose rounds were designed to penetrate 48 layers of Kevlar at one hundred metres. Or a shotgun with sabot rounds which are also meant to penetrate armour.

They may be murderous and evil, but they are not necessarily stupid.
 

dolores haze

international guttersnipe
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 18, 2007
Messages
4,952
Reaction score
3,937
Location
far from the madding crowd
If the teachers were packing I'd be homeschooling.

I live in a rural community where almost everybody has firearms. Shotguns for hunting mostly, though there are a few who have handguns for home protection. Even in this quite heavily armed and pro-gun community I've only heard one parent calling for the teachers to be armed. More seem to think if there was more religion in schools then this type of thing wouldn't happen.
 

muravyets

Old revolutionary
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 21, 2011
Messages
7,212
Reaction score
974
Location
Massachusetts, USA
Website
www.facebook.com
If the teachers were packing I'd be homeschooling.

I live in a rural community where almost everybody has firearms. Shotguns for hunting mostly, though there are a few who have handguns for home protection. Even in this quite heavily armed and pro-gun community I've only heard one parent calling for the teachers to be armed. More seem to think if there was more religion in schools then this type of thing wouldn't happen.
Ugh, don't even get me started on that one. Because yeah, we all know how bullets just bounce right off a good solid prayer miasma. Argh.
 

blacbird

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 21, 2005
Messages
36,987
Reaction score
6,158
Location
The right earlobe of North America
If someone is licensed to carry a concealed weapon to the park, the theatre, the grocery store, to church, etc., I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to carry it to school.

A "concealed-carry" license doesn't give you license to carry a weapon everywhere. Private businesses, in particular, have every right to forbid possession of firearms on their premises, and many do just that.

caw
 

Brynn

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 21, 2012
Messages
125
Reaction score
12
I guess the rationale is that a possible perpetrator might think, I don't want to go in there and shoot up a bunch of kids because one of the teachers MIGHT have a gun themselves, and I might get killed too, so I guess I won't do it.

Just a side note, I don't think this is the rationale. Rather, the idea is that someone could stop a killer before the fatality list gets so long. For example, there was a shooting at New Life Church in Colorado several years ago, and a security guard shot and wounded the gunman (who then took his own life). He had a lot of ammunition with him, and it's likely that he would have killed a much higher number of people if no one at the church had been armed.
 

Ken

Banned
Kind Benefactor
Joined
Dec 28, 2007
Messages
11,478
Reaction score
6,198
Location
AW. A very nice place!
... if a teacher of mine was carrying a gun back when I was in elementary school it'd be my aim to get hold of it. Not to shoot it or anything, but just to check it out and handle it. Guns are so cool to a kid. They just look so. Don't get me wrong or anything. I wouldn't be making to take the gun and keep it or anything. Just to have a look at it. I'd get it back in the teacher's desk by the end of the day without them noticing. Maybe I'd show a few kids too during the day. They'd sure be impressed. There was that park nearby the school. Maybe I'd even fire a shot. No. That would be heard, I suppose. But maybe not --
 

mirandashell

Banned
Joined
Feb 7, 2010
Messages
16,197
Reaction score
1,889
Location
England
I'm not having a go at anyone here, and this is a cultural thing but.....

as a Brit, it shocks me that anyone can seriously discuss having more guns in schools, rather than less. More guns anywhere, rather than less. It shocks me to my socks.

And yeah, I know it's a cultural/social/political thing. But still.....
 

Roger J Carlson

Moderator In Name Only
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 19, 2005
Messages
12,799
Reaction score
2,499
Location
West Michigan
A "concealed-carry" license doesn't give you license to carry a weapon everywhere. Private businesses, in particular, have every right to forbid possession of firearms on their premises, and many do just that.

caw
And school districts should be able to decide, too. Yes?
 

shakeysix

blue eyed floozy
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 1, 2007
Messages
10,839
Reaction score
2,426
Location
St. John, Kansas
Website
shakey6wordsmith.webs.com
I am a teacher and I have guns. I grew up in a family of hunters and have handled guns since I was six or seven. I live in a place where bobcats, deer, wild turkeys and coyotes are part of the landscape. A swear to god mountain lion was picked up on a surveillance camera at a refuge less than 20 miles from my house. I really need a gun. A big gun. Lots of big guns.

I don't know about being certified to carry a gun. Everyone has guns out here. Lots of guns. Often the kids will go hunting before school and have a shotgun or two in their vehicles right on the school parking lot. Teacher's too. People out here hate gov interference and paperwork so good luck getting Kansans to sign on for that. We love our guns and we are real responsible with them. Unless drinking or quarreling.

Teachers carrying guns in school? I've been thinking about that since the Platte Canyon school shooting. I would feel safer with a gun somewhere nearby--maybe in the storage room next to my classroom. It is filled with books. The kids would never find it there.

I am dead serious about protecting my students, even if they are taller than I am by a good foot. In case I hear gunshots my hope is to get to my gun and rush the shooter before the kids get to their guns. (If teachers have guns you can be sure the kids will have guns too.)

Now don't get me wrong, I love the kids but I cannot trust their judgement. They are a bit hair trigger and they tend to racially stereotype segments of the population. I get after them for that in ordinary class discussions. I'd hate to see them start stereotyping with a gun in hand.

Only I should have a gun. I love my fellow teachers but they don't understand weapons or the criminal mindset. Some are really namby- pamby liberal, doubt if they could shoot a bunny much less a human. Others are kind of red-state scary.

So if we are going to arm teachers I had better be the one with the gun because I am smarter than anyone else. And I am responsible around guns because I have been around them all my life! Never mind that I am sixty plus and a bit hairtrigger myself.--s6
 
Last edited: