Publishing: US vs UK for Fantasy

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Hello, all!

I am a newbie writer working on my first novel of publishable (I hope!) quality, so while submitting to agents is a way off in the future, I do have some concerns. Two things that are relevant:

1) I am an American expat living in Central Europe,
2) I am writing epic fantasy, potentially a trilogy, and the word count, while still flexible, seems to be in the 150-160k range.

Based on that, the UK market, with its seeming preference for longer novels, and closer geographical proximity (and thus, less money spent on airfare to promote my novel) seems to be a better fit for me. On the other hand, I have absolutely zero ties to the UK, so choosing it as my first entry market seems a bit odd. Plus, I will probably be returning to the States at some point in the future, so I would honestly prefer to be published in the US first.

What are my chances, realistically, of publishing a novel of that length in the US? Should I bite the bullet and go with the UK? I think it worked for Peter V. Brett, but that was years ago?
 

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Ah ha! This may not be your call actually.

An agent will sell the book to a publisher, and may sell World English language rights, which will mean it will be released everywhere simultaneously. (This happened to 2 of my friends who had the same UK agent - their books were released everywhere English was spoken, pretty much on the same day. The only difference was covers.)

I know there's the case of chopping it up and selling it bit by bit to different regions, but I heard this loses sales. It kind of dilutes the initial marketing push.
 

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I am a newbie writer working on my first novel of publishable (I hope!) quality, so while submitting to agents is a way off in the future, I do have some concerns. Two things that are relevant:

1) I am an American expat living in Central Europe,
2) I am writing epic fantasy, potentially a trilogy, and the word count, while still flexible, seems to be in the 150-160k range.

Is that word-count per book, or is it for the whole trilogy? Because it's too long for a single book, and way too short for three of them.

Based on that, the UK market, with its seeming preference for longer novels, and closer geographical proximity (and thus, less money spent on airfare to promote my novel) seems to be a better fit for me.

The cost of airfare is not a consideration you have here.

If your book is published, and your publisher decides to send you on a book tour, your publisher will pay for your expenses.

Do not worry about this.

What I would consider is where your primary market is. You usually pay your agent 15% for home sales and 20-25% on foreign sales: if the majority of your sales are going to happen in the US I think it makes sense to have a US-based agent, so you pay the lower commissions on the bulk of your sales.

What are my chances, realistically, of publishing a novel of that length in the US? Should I bite the bullet and go with the UK? I think it worked for Peter V. Brett, but that was years ago?

Ignore Brett. He wrote his books, you're writing yours.

If I were you I'd query in the US and if you don't find an agent, query UK agents.
 
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Ah ha! This may not be your call actually.

An agent will sell the book to a publisher, and may sell World English language rights, which will mean it will be released everywhere simultaneously. (This happened to 2 of my friends who had the same UK agent - their books were released everywhere English was spoken, pretty much on the same day. The only difference was covers.)

I know there's the case of chopping it up and selling it bit by bit to different regions, but I heard this loses sales. It kind of dilutes the initial marketing push.
Hmm...I seemed to have been operating under the impression that selling all English rights worldwide is inadvisable because it makes one dependent on the initial sales in one market in perpetuity, and if that doesn't go well, one is basically screwed? Also, the royalty rate is not as good as selling the rights piecemeal? Am I wrong in this?
 

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The market for epic fantasy is hot at the moment according to my agent and 150K is not insanely long provided the book is awesome. There are more fantasy publishers in the US and way more agents there who will look at fantasy.
 
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Is that word-count per book, or is it for the whole trilogy? Because it's too long for a single book, and way too short for three of them.
It's for one book. And yes, I am aware it's about 50% longer than ideal, which is why I am looking at the UK fantasy market, as it is more tolerant of debut authors writing huge volumes of fat fantasy, with the average debut being around 140k words.

The cost of airfare is not a consideration you have here.

If your book is published, and your publisher decides to send you on a book tour, your publisher will pay for your expenses.

Do not worry about this.
But the publisher doesn't exactly grow money on trees. The cost of airfare will be a factor in deciding whether to send me on book tour at all, will it not?
What I would consider is where your primary market is. You usually pay your agent 15% for home sales and 20-25% on foreign sales: if the majority of your sales are going to happen in the US I think it makes sense to have a US-based agent, so you pay the lower commissions on the bulk of your sales.
That is a very valid point.



Ignore Brett. He wrote his books, you're writing yours.
But he SOLD his debut book, despite it being in the 160k range. And he did it by selling it to a UK publisher first, despite being American. I am wondering if that is still applicable.
If I were you I'd query in the US and if you don't find an agent, query UK agents.
Duly noted. Thanks for your advice!
 
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The market for epic fantasy is hot at the moment according to my agent and 150K is not insanely long provided the book is awesome. There are more fantasy publishers in the US and way more agents there who will look at fantasy.
Your words are a balm for my troubled soul. :hooray:
 

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Hmm...I seemed to have been operating under the impression that selling all English rights worldwide is inadvisable because it makes one dependent on the initial sales in one market in perpetuity, and if that doesn't go well, one is basically screwed? Also, the royalty rate is not as good as selling the rights piecemeal? Am I wrong in this?

Why would it make you dependent on your sales in one market?

When you license all rights to one publisher, they might publish foreign editions if they have houses in other territories; but they also often license those rights on to other publishers.

If you get a good contract then there's no "in perpetuity" as there will be good revision clauses.

It's common for a publisher to take 50% of all income on editions they sell. So yep, you're right that the royalty rate isn't as good for the writer in this case. However, if your agent can't sell those foreign or subsidiary rights, then you're probably better off letting your publisher have them IF they have a history of making good sales for the rights they hold.

It's for one book. And yes, I am aware it's about 50% longer than ideal, which is why I am looking at the UK fantasy market, as it is more tolerant of debut authors writing huge volumes of fat fantasy, with the average debut being around 140k words.

I've rarely encountered a book which couldn't be improved by a nice strong pruning.

But the publisher doesn't exactly grow money on trees. The cost of airfare will be a factor in deciding whether to send me on book tour at all, will it not?

No, it won't.

Very few authors get sent on tour. Book tours are not very effective ways of promoting books. But when they are organised, the cost of airfare for you to get to the US is minor compared to the rest of the costs involved. It's not a big deal, and it wouldn't be a make-or-break issue. I've participated in more editorial meetings than I can count, and can't remember "can we afford to fly the author in" as a reason to not promote a book effectively, or as a reason to not take a book in the first place.

But he SOLD his debut book, despite it being in the 160k range. And he did it by selling it to a UK publisher first, despite being American. I am wondering if that is still applicable.

You might just as well consider that Writer X sold a book that was 50,000 words long to an Australian publisher, or that Writer Y sold a book that was 180,000 words long to a German publisher. They are just as applicable to your situation.

All you can consider is your book. Your book. Not anyone else's. Because all books are different, and they can't be directly compared in the way you're trying to.

I think Brett's first book was published in 2007 or 2008 (am I right? please check and correct me if not) and so was probably bought in 2006 or 2007. Lots has changed in publishing since then. But what remains true is that you have a book as long as that it has to be exceptional to get a deal; and for many agents and publishers, a longer book will mean an automatic rejection.

If I were you I'd stop worrying about where a longer book might have the best chance, and finish your book. Because until it's done you have no real idea of how long it'll be, and then you have to revise it, and once you've done all that this whole conversation might be pointless.
 

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Hmm...I seemed to have been operating under the impression that selling all English rights worldwide is inadvisable because it makes one dependent on the initial sales in one market in perpetuity, and if that doesn't go well, one is basically screwed? Also, the royalty rate is not as good as selling the rights piecemeal? Am I wrong in this?

Depends on the publisher you go with. If you end up pubbed ata small imprint that only releases books in, I don't know, New Zealand, then it wouldn't make sense to sign away World English rights, no (unless they routinely have an overseas pub which they work in tandem with) because you could sell them to say a small pub in the US and another in the UK


But if your publisher, like mine, release your books in the US, Canada, UK, OZ and NZ....why would you not let them do so? (Mine are published simultaneously, or near enough, so it doesn't depend on one market doing well before they go to the next.)

If they aren't going to use the rights, don't sell them. But if they are, you will probably get more for them

PS querying US v UK -- length isn't the problem, but who you audience is, who it will appeal to, will. Also, I have a US agent (I'm in the UK) and my editor lives twenty miles away from me. So US agents sell to the UK and vice versa.
 
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Ah ha! This may not be your call actually.

An agent will sell the book to a publisher, and may sell World English language rights, which will mean it will be released everywhere simultaneously. (This happened to 2 of my friends who had the same UK agent - their books were released everywhere English was spoken, pretty much on the same day. The only difference was covers.)

I know there's the case of chopping it up and selling it bit by bit to different regions, but I heard this loses sales. It kind of dilutes the initial marketing push.

What kind of books were those? Were they print or e-books? And which publishers? There's no way in hell I'd ever agree to that, and I'd fire any agent who even suggested it.
 

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What kind of books were those? Were they print or e-books? And which publishers? There's no way in hell I'd ever agree to that, and I'd fire any agent who even suggested it.


Do you mean you would never agree to being simultaneously published worldwide, or you'd never agree to it being done piecemeal?
 

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What kind of books were those? Were they print or e-books? And which publishers? There's no way in hell I'd ever agree to that, and I'd fire any agent who even suggested it.

The First English Language Rights? Print, hardcover, trade, ebook, Big 5 trilogies, six figure advance, debut novelists both. I'd give my agent a sloppy kiss if they could arrange that.

The foreign rights brought in more cash.
 
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Treehouseman

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Also nearly every piecemeal sale writer I know ended up having regional releases delayed or worse, not at all, when sales were not to expectations.

Usually the Agent had no choice - Harper Voyager Australia for instance will only buy NZ/AU rights initially, which makes the book much less attractive to other publishers.
 
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Why would it make you dependent on your sales in one market?

When you license all rights to one publisher, they might publish foreign editions if they have houses in other territories; but they also often license those rights on to other publishers.

If you get a good contract then there's no "in perpetuity" as there will be good revision clauses.

It's common for a publisher to take 50% of all income on editions they sell. So yep, you're right that the royalty rate isn't as good for the writer in this case. However, if your agent can't sell those foreign or subsidiary rights, then you're probably better off letting your publisher have them IF they have a history of making good sales for the rights they hold.



I've rarely encountered a book which couldn't be improved by a nice strong pruning.



No, it won't.

Very few authors get sent on tour. Book tours are not very effective ways of promoting books. But when they are organised, the cost of airfare for you to get to the US is minor compared to the rest of the costs involved. It's not a big deal, and it wouldn't be a make-or-break issue. I've participated in more editorial meetings than I can count, and can't remember "can we afford to fly the author in" as a reason to not promote a book effectively, or as a reason to not take a book in the first place.



You might just as well consider that Writer X sold a book that was 50,000 words long to an Australian publisher, or that Writer Y sold a book that was 180,000 words long to a German publisher. They are just as applicable to your situation.

All you can consider is your book. Your book. Not anyone else's. Because all books are different, and they can't be directly compared in the way you're trying to.

I think Brett's first book was published in 2007 or 2008 (am I right? please check and correct me if not) and so was probably bought in 2006 or 2007. Lots has changed in publishing since then. But what remains true is that you have a book as long as that it has to be exceptional to get a deal; and for many agents and publishers, a longer book will mean an automatic rejection.

If I were you I'd stop worrying about where a longer book might have the best chance, and finish your book. Because until it's done you have no real idea of how long it'll be, and then you have to revise it, and once you've done all that this whole conversation might be pointless.
Right. Thanks for clearing this up for me. Looks like I was waaay off on this.
 

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A fun game to play: Post ANYTHING about an agent and see how fast James A Richie can chime in about how he'd fire an agent for it.

"My agent negotiated a six-figure deal for World English rights to a reputable publisher" -- WORLD ENGLISH?!? I'D FIRE MY AGENT FOR SELLING WORLD ENGLISH!

"My agent suggested revisions that made my book stronger, and we went on to sell it to a great publisher." -- I'D FIRE MY AGENT FOR DARING TO SUGGEST REVISIONS! THAT'S NOT HER JOB! FIRE HER!

"My agent helps orphans in Sudan." -- I'D FIRE MY AGENT FOR EVEN *THINKING* ABOUT ORPHANS!
 

MandyHubbard

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Ah ha! This may not be your call actually.

An agent will sell the book to a publisher, and may sell World English language rights, which will mean it will be released everywhere simultaneously. (This happened to 2 of my friends who had the same UK agent - their books were released everywhere English was spoken, pretty much on the same day. The only difference was covers.)

I know there's the case of chopping it up and selling it bit by bit to different regions, but I heard this loses sales. It kind of dilutes the initial marketing push.

That's actually NOT what selling world English means at all. It means that one publisher bought the RIGHTS to sell the book throughout the world in English, but it does not mean that publisher is going to publish for each territory.

The fact that you are seeing different covers means that there are other publishers in other territories involved.

Example: You sell your YA novel to harper Collins in the US for world English rights. They then shop rights to English-speaking territories (UK, Australia, etc), and publishers in those territories may buy rights to publish in their market-- , and then make small adjustments to reflect their market-- changing your " to ' or changing color to colour, etc, etc. In some cases you will even work directly with the UK or AUS pub who bought rights, reviewing copy edits or even making some larger changes directly for them.

You may also sell world English to a US publisher and then NO ONE else in the world picks up the rights at all. It releases her, and then people in the UK or NZ or whatnot may buy an imported US edition via amazon or a local store.

it's the same thing when you sell world rights-- your US publisher MIGHT sell complex Chinese rights to a Chinese publisher along with translation rights to 20 other countries. or they might sell zero.

So basically you sell the RIGHT for your publisher to negotiate deals with publishers abroad, but you do not get to assume all those rights are leveraged.

Conversely if your US pub buys ONLY north American rights, your agent can go sell all those retrained rights directly. This is usually a good thing, because you retain more of the $$ earned by those sales-- it's not split with your US publisher.
 
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It means that one publisher bought the RIGHTS to sell the book throughout the world in English, but it does not mean that publisher is going to publish for each territory.

...

The fact that you are seeing different covers means that there are other publishers in other territories involved.

Goodness, the bolded bit sounds worse than I imagined. Now I'm thinking that Friend #3 must have had her fantasy trilogy bought for World Rights but not released widely. It was released in AUS/NZ a couple of years ago. She won't say much about it, and is understandably bitter when the house decided not to release it wider and dropped the title.

She says in hindsight she should have had an agent - she was quite excited at being picked up unagented by a big 5 pub, I guess she found out the hard way about the rights thing. :Shrug:

My 2 debut novelist friends appeared to have the same publisher in both the US and UK - [House Name US] and [House Name UK]. Would these have been different imprints? Or different company arms entirely? I can understand different editions, for the reasons you have mentioned.
 

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Goodness, the bolded bit sounds worse than I imagined. Now I'm thinking that Friend #3 must have had her fantasy trilogy bought for World Rights but not released widely. It was released in AUS/NZ a couple of years ago. She won't say much about it, and is understandably bitter when the house decided not to release it wider and dropped the title.

She says in hindsight she should have had an agent - she was quite excited at being picked up unagented by a big 5 pub, I guess she found out the hard way about the rights thing. :Shrug:

My 2 debut novelist friends appeared to have the same publisher in both the US and UK - [House Name US] and [House Name UK]. Would these have been different imprints? Or different company arms entirely? I can understand different editions, for the reasons you have mentioned.

Yes, I've also had clients be published by S&S in the US and S&S in the UK. While technically the same company, they operate quite separately. Different marketing, editorial, sales, everything.

If your deal originates in the US as world English or world rights, then the US pub would send it over to the UK pub and see if they want to buy the rights. Sometimes they will send to their own "branch" first, for a short exclusive time as it benefits the parent company. BUT someone over in the UK has to decide they love the book and it fits their market.

I bolded a line above of yours to reiterate-- the original publisher does not 'decide' to release it world wide. They simply send it out to publishers (or rather, subagents agents within various territories who then send it widely to publishers) to see if OTHER publishers would like to buy the rights to publish in that territory. If you friend was published by a big pub with a good subrights department, it's not the original publisher's fault that it didn't get picked up around the world. Some AMAZING books don't get deals-- many of them are "too American" (or too "Australian" or whatever) to work in other territories.

When you make the first deal (for most, that means USA) it's not always a bad thing to sell them world rights. You usually will get a higher advance in the US for giving up those rights. Sometimes publishers will literally send an offer that says, "75K for world English or $100K for world."

And then you weigh the risk-- how confident are you that you can go out and get $25K worth of deals on your own (using your lit agent's subrights team) vs take the guaranteed money knowing that you'll have to split the foreign proceeds with the publisher? (When you license your work to a foreign publisher, usually somewhere between 20% and 40% goes to the pub, the rest toward earning out your advance).
 

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How do you feel about deals where they take World English rights, and use them all?

You mean they publish UK editions, Aus/NZ editions, etc? That's a good thing! Wider audience, more royalties. I have a client who regularly gets very nice five figure checks from her Australian publisher.