The epic series: What is it? How does it work?

Roxxsmom

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https://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/documents/Epic.pdf

Consider reading definitions of epic as related to literature. This might help you better categorize works of fiction.

Hmm, but that definition, ASoIAF isn't an epic. Nor are the works of most other modern fantasy writers who get lumped together under epic fantasy.

I suspect the meaning has shifted somewhere. Something doesn't have to be "an epic" in the mythological sense to be in that marketing niche that's called epic fantasy today. Most of these stories have deeply flawed protagonists who aren't all that heroic in the traditional sense.

My take on epic fantasy is that it usually takes place over a relatively long time frame, tends to involve a large geographic area, and it has very large stakes that extend well beyond the personal. Often an entire civilization, even the world, is in danger. Plus it tends to encompass many story lines and points of view and takes place over multiple books.

Note that there are plenty of multi-book fantasy series that aren't epic fantasies, however.

I was thinking about the Hobbit. LOTR is epic, imho, but the Hobbit? I'd say it falls more into high fantasy. Sure, there's a big war at the end, but that war is not in the same scope as Sauron's threat to burn Middle Earth. I don't know. Thoughts?

I'd agree with this. And remember that The Hobbit was a children's book. It wasn't meant to be as weighty as his later works set in Middle Earth.

What gets really confusing is that the terms "epic" and "high" fantasy (or their definitions) are often used interchangeably, and some people will use either or both terms to describe any fantasy that takes place in a secondary world or a quasi historical or kinda sorta "medievalish" setting.
 
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Lillith1991

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I guess I just don't get why I would want to tell a story of *everything*. Just not the kind of story that's my style.

Then why challenge yourself to write one? That seems extremely counter productive to me and pointless. Splatter Punk isn't a genre I like to read and thus not something I would likely write, and I'm perfectly ok with that.There's nothing to say that as a someone who likes Horror, I can't have a preferrence for certain subgenres of it and dislike others.
 

dondomat

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Epic Fiction need not equal Actually Writing Epic Stuff

The absolute biggest thing I ever planned out was a space-opera-esque thing which had bare glimpses of several settings: a few buildings in the capital cities of empire 1&2, the military academy of empire 1, a spaceship of empire 2, a neutral spaceship, a neutral recreational space station, a jail in empire 2, and a mostly-empty neutral space station being used to host a diplomatic meeting. In most of these settings there were only a handful of background characters for the 3 main characters to interact with. Wasn't trying for an epic feel at all, since it was basically a romance novel.

Asimov's Foundation series is "epic" space opera, but is basically people talking all the time, and meeting a very limited number of natives on each planet.

Dan Simmons's Hyperion--also. Herbert's Dune the book--also. The "epic" stuff is alluded to, summarized, retold by witnesses, but you don't have to actually describe it. You can tell not show, and that's what many masters do. It leaves the impression of incredibly epic scope, but off-stage mostly, like in theater.

Stylistic examples--from thrillers, because I'm currently deep in work on a thriller and hence read mainly thrillers at this stage and these examples popped to mind first--the principle is the same:

Real-time (Robert Ludlum, The Bourne Identity)

The trawler plunged into the angry swells of the dark, furious sea like an awkward animal trying desperately to break out of an impenetrable swamp. The waves rose to goliathan heights, crashing into the hull with the power of raw tonnage; the white sprays caught in the night sky cascaded downward over the deck under the force of the night wind. Everywhere there were the sounds of inanimate pain, wood straining against wood, ropes twisting, stretched to the breaking point. The animal was dying.
Two abrupt explosions pierced the sounds of the sea and the wind and the vessel’s pain. They came from the dimly lit cabin that rose and fell with its host body. A man lunged out of the door grasping the railing with one hand, holding his stomach with the other.
A second man followed, the pursuit cautious, his intent violent. He stood bracing himself in the cabin door; he raised a gun and fired again. And again.
The man at the railing whipped both his hands up to his head, arching backward under the impact of the fourth bullet. The trawler’s bow dipped suddenly into the valley of two giant waves, lifting the wounded man off his feet; he twisted to his left unable to take his hands away from his head. The boat surged upward, bow and midships more out of the water than in it, sweeping the figure in the doorway back into the cabin, a fifth gunshot fired wildly. The wounded man screamed, his hands now lashing out at anything he could grasp, his eyes blinded by blood and the unceasing spray of the sea. There was nothing he could grab, so he grabbed at nothing; his legs buckled as his body lurched forward. The boat rolled violently leeward and the man whose skull was ripped open plunged over the side into the madness of the darkness below.
He felt rushing cold water envelop him, swallowing him, sucking him under, and twisting him in circles, then propelling him up to the surface—only to gasp a single breath of air. A gasp and he was under again.
And there was heat, a strange moist heat at his temple that seared through the freezing water that kept swallowing him, a fire where no fire should burn. There was ice, too; an icelike throbbing in his stomach and his legs and his chest, oddly warmed by the cold sea around him. He felt these things, acknowledging his own panic as he felt them. He could see his own body turning and twisting, arms and feet working frantically against the pressures of the whirlpool. He could feel, think, see, perceive panic and struggle—yet strangely there was peace. It was the calm of the observer, the uninvolved observer, separated from the events, knowing of them but not essentially involved.
Then another form of panic spread through him, surging through the heat and the ice and the uninvolved recognition. He could not submit to peace! Not yet! It would happen any second now; he was not sure what it was, but it would happen. He had to be there!
He kicked furiously, clawing at the heavy walls of water above, his chest burning. He broke surface, thrashing to stay on top of the black swells. Climb up! Climb up!
A monstrous rolling wave accommodated; he was on the crest, surrounded by pockets of foam and darkness
Told by witness (Ken Follett, Hornet Flight)

Digby sat on the edge of the hospital bed, dry-eyed now, watching his brother’s face, seeing the thousand-yard-stare as Bart remembered.
“I told the crew to jettison the rear hatch then get into ditching position, braced against the bulkhead.” The Whitley had a crew of five, Digby recalled. “When we reached zero altitude I heaved back on the stick and opened the throttles, but the aircraft refused to level out, and we hit the water with a terrific smash. I was knocked out.”
They were step brothers, eight years apart. Digby’s mother had died when he was thirteen, and his father had married a widow with a boy of her own. From the start, Digby had looked after his little brother, protecting him from bullies and helping him with his schoolwork. They had both been mad about airplanes, and dreamed of being pilots. Digby lost his right leg in a motorcycle accident, studied engineering, and went into aircraft design; but Bart lived the dream.
“When I came to, I could smell smoke. The aircraft was floating and the starboard wing was on fire. The night was dark as the grave, but I could see by the light of the flames. I crawled along the fuselage and found the dinghy pack. I bunged it through the hatch and jumped. Jesus, that water was cold.”
His voice was low and calm, but he took hard pulls on his cigarette, drawing the smoke deep into his lungs and blowing it out between tight-pursed lips in a long jet. “I was wearing a life jacket and I came to the surface like a cork. There was quite a swell, and I was going up and down like a tart’s knickers. Luckily, the dinghy pack was in front of my nose. I pulled the string and it inflated itself, but I couldn’t get in. I didn’t have the strength to heave myself out of the water. I couldn’t understand it—didn’t realize I had a dislocated shoulder and a broken wrist and three cracked ribs and all that. So I just stayed there, holding on, freezing to death.”
There had been a time, Digby recalled, when he thought Bart had been the lucky one.
“Eventually Jones and Croft appeared. They’d held on to the tail until it went down. Neither could swim, but their Mae Wests saved them, and they managed to scramble into the dinghy and pull me in.” He lit a fresh cigarette. “I never saw Pickering. I don’t know what happened to him, but I assume he’s at the bottom of the sea.”
He fell silent. There was one crew member unaccounted for, Digby realized. After a pause, he said, “What about the fifth man?”
“John Rowley, the bomb-aimer, was alive. We heard him call out. I was in a bit of a daze, but Jones and Croft tried to row toward the voice.” He shook his head in a gesture of hopelessness. “You can’t imagine how difficult it was. The swell must have been three or four feet, the flames were dying down so we couldn’t see much, and the wind was howling like a bloody banshee. Jones yelled, and he’s got a strong voice. Rowley would shout back, then the dinghy would go up one side of a wave and down the other and spin around at the same time, and when he called out again his voice seemed to come from a completely different direction. I don’t know how long it went on. Rowley kept shouting, but his voice became weaker as the cold got to him.” Bart’s face stiffened. “He started to sound a bit pathetic, calling to God and his mother and that sort of rot. Eventually he went quiet.”
 
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Debbie V

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Hmm, but that definition, ASoIAF isn't an epic. Nor are the works of most other modern fantasy writers who get lumped together under epic fantasy.

I suspect the meaning has shifted somewhere. Something doesn't have to be "an epic" in the mythological sense to be in that marketing niche that's called epic fantasy today. Most of these stories have deeply flawed protagonists who aren't all that heroic in the traditional sense.

This is why I suggested reading multiple definitions. You might even be able to trace the shift over time. The Odyssey is an epic poem. The war is over, but politics does play into it. Now I'm wondering if all of the epic poems contained mythic characters. Wouldn't that be a subset of fantasy? That's just me thinking out loud though. No need to derail for it.
 

MkMoore

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Categorizing stories is always a nebulous business, and I think people can disagree what a term means and not necessarily be wrong. That said, I agree that "epic" in its modern definition tends to refer to scope rather than the older mythic definition, and I think for our purposes, that probably makes the most sense.

I personally love epic fantasy, and it's what I tend toward when I'm building storeis. But I also love plenty of fantasy that would never be referred to as epic and isn't any less wonderful for being in a smaller scope.
 

zellieh

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Beowulf and a lot of the Greek plays were counted as epics for centuries (and still are in the literary sense), but they probably wouldn't count as epic fantasies if they were written and marketed today.

I'm pretty sure it was Tolkien's unexpected sales success with LotR that changed the definition of epic fantasy in modern publishing.

It was the level of worldbuilding and sense of complex history and mythology that made Tolkien epic for me, not the battles. So I like epics that have a sense of deep time to them.
 

CrastersBabies

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Beowulf and a lot of the Greek plays were counted as epics for centuries (and still are in the literary sense), but they probably wouldn't count as epic fantasies if they were written and marketed today.

I'm pretty sure it was Tolkien's unexpected sales success with LotR that changed the definition of epic fantasy in modern publishing.

It was the level of worldbuilding and sense of complex history and mythology that made Tolkien epic for me, not the battles. So I like epics that have a sense of deep time to them.

^Signs name to this
 

Roxxsmom

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Beowulf and a lot of the Greek plays were counted as epics for centuries (and still are in the literary sense), but they probably wouldn't count as epic fantasies if they were written and marketed today.

I'm pretty sure it was Tolkien's unexpected sales success with LotR that changed the definition of epic fantasy in modern publishing.

It was the level of worldbuilding and sense of complex history and mythology that made Tolkien epic for me, not the battles. So I like epics that have a sense of deep time to them.

This. And in fact, Tolkien tended to gloss over the details of the battles more than many modern "epic" fantasy writers do. Not just in terms of gritty gory details (he had a few touches here and there, like the heads being lobbed over the city walls), but in the overall amount of time he spent on them.

But when you write a story where the world is at stake, it helps if the reader loves that world.
 

Brightdreamer

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This. And in fact, Tolkien tended to gloss over the details of the battles more than many modern "epic" fantasy writers do. Not just in terms of gritty gory details (he had a few touches here and there, like the heads being lobbed over the city walls), but in the overall amount of time he spent on them.

So, naturally, Peter Jackson includes a 45-minute battle sequence in his latest visit to Middle Earth... ;)
 

VeryBigBeard

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So, naturally, Peter Jackson includes a 45-minute battle sequence in his latest visit to Middle Earth... ;)

I know. Ugh. The CGI wasn't even that great CGI. And it felt so wrong.

What I am grateful to the movies for is Howard Shore. I love listening to his score but the funny thing is that "epic" is a terrible world to describe the sensation you get from the music. It's such an easy, inaccurate term for what are a bunch of complex emotions. Tolkien's real mastery was in creating friendships, personalities, and characters within that history so that there are these great moments--in Moria, at Parth Galen, Shelob's Lair--and they're places but they're also really human moments.

That's what I get most of from Shore's score, even when it's big and banging. The scale of it aurally is huge just like books, but what it makes you feel is really, really small.

Each track on the soundtrack is named after a chapter title in the book, too. I like that.
 

Debbie V

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Beowulf and a lot of the Greek plays were counted as epics for centuries (and still are in the literary sense), but they probably wouldn't count as epic fantasies if they were written and marketed today.

I'm pretty sure it was Tolkien's unexpected sales success with LotR that changed the definition of epic fantasy in modern publishing.

It was the level of worldbuilding and sense of complex history and mythology that made Tolkien epic for me, not the battles. So I like epics that have a sense of deep time to them.

Deep time and deep relationships with a lot at stake. Maybe it's not the world, maybe it's just the character's world.

Tolkien took the mythological creatures of old epics and invented his own, creating an epic around them. Even the battles are really about the relationships between/among the characters - good and evil. He knew that's what we'd care about as readers.

So, going back to the OP, you can write epics without war, but you do need depth in your story as well as breadth in its impact on the world it exists in.

At least, that's what I've taken from the discussion so far.
 

Jo Zebedee

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Breadth. Even epic series with focus on single characters have depth in the world - Name of the Wind is a good example of that. I began writing an epic space opera and focused on the characters - it keeps getting bigger (under editorial advice, not padding, I'm a pretty lean writer). In my case, the characters are still the focus ypbut the world is the backdrop and it needs depth and nuance - something I struggle with but my editor isn't letting me weasel out of, and the book is improving all the time.

In retrospect, though, I should have planned a bit more - epic has a big enough world it needs some sort of planning to hold the threads.