World Building in the Southern Hemisphere

Tanydwr · Nov 21, 2014

As I keep linking the different 'worlds' of my novels (now up to three 'turnings' or ages of the same actual world), I wanted to set the main action of the first 'turning' on the east coast of a super-continent where there are various large chunks that have broken away to form islands. I then decided that I wanted this to be in the southern hemisphere, roughly temperate (the first story's main country has a Mediterranean-esque climate, feeling a bit like south-coastal France - hot summers, mild winters).

Does anyone have any world-building tips for things that I, having spent my entire life in the northern hemisphere, might not know/realise? I know, obviously, that north becomes the warmer direction, and that the sun would travel east to west via the north, not the south, therefore travelling anti-clockwise, and that lunar eclipses would show the moons (there's two at this point - one of them blows up when the first 'turning' becomes the second after some idiot decides to mess with the gods and resurrect the dead) travelling from left to right across the sun.

Does anyone have any other suggestions? In addition, any suggestions as to how a supercontinent might affect the climate? What not-so-mythological animals might roam a planet with a supercontinent where humanity has sprung up and is in the stage of petty to large kingdoms, with tribal societies at the outskirts.

This world has open and active magic and magical creatures, and my intention is to play a bit with fairy tales - things like challenges for suitors, what would happen in a country where a member of the royal family was cursed into beast-like form - and what the family itself must be like to have produced someone that a magic-user felt needed punishment/education - as well as the first novel being something of a response to a portal fantasy about four siblings who become the rulers of a fantasy land. That's about the only thing it shares in common, my siblings being adults (from 1980s Britain) with degrees, tragedies, and some actual political acumen, as well as resentment for the forces messing their lives around, and a sense of responsibility to the people whose leader they've just killed (in about the first or second chapter - it's all intended to be about the aftermath).

Any suggestions welcome, especially any useful links. Thanks!

Dryad · Nov 21, 2014

You know, I'd drop your supercontinent question in the Science Fact sub-forum. You might get some really detailed, awesome answers.

Likely this won't be a factor for you because your characters would have to travel and compare for it to be useful, but for me one of the most striking differences when I travelled to the southern hemisphere were the stars. I was on a small ketch in the Indian Ocean. I just couldn't get past the Big Dipper being about to take a scoop out of an island. There were so many exciting new sights, but seeing the familiar constellations UPSIDE DOWN made my brain want to explode.

benbenberi · Nov 21, 2014

A supercontinent is likely to be habitable only in the coastal zones. The deep interior will be extreme desert conditions, inhospitable to most plant & animal life. But suitable for quests and adventures, I suppose.

The last time there was a single supercontinent on Earth (Pangaea), it had dinosaurs on it. Make of that what you will. The time before that (Rodinia), there were no land-dwelling animals at all, and precious few plants. There was probably one called Pannotia between Rodinia and Pangaea, but it didn't include all the major landmasses, it didn't stay intact very long, and it was mostly around the south pole & heavily glacial, and most of the interesting animals were still in the sea at that time anyway. Pre-Rodinia supercontinents are hypothesized but the evidence is apparently kinda sketchy -- and the only life around for those was microbial.

The links on the Wikipedia pages about supercontinents and the supercontinent cycle may get you started on some of the research.

As for the people...

The people of a southern-hemisphere society almost certainly don't realize they've spent their entire lives upside-down on the bottom of the globe! To be fair, I suppose they probably make maps with their own countries at the top. And they may make their clocks go backwards too, so the sun still moves clockwise. But backwards.

Tanydwr · Nov 22, 2014

Thanks for the response! I thought the central areas would be fairly uninhabitable - I think the supercontinent is in the slow progress of breaking up, which explains both the island kingdoms, and the volcanoes to the west (and possibly north or south - still need to decide). This is a world with dragons, so they're definitely about, inhabiting the mountain ranges, and dinosaurs or large lizard-like creatures could work quite well for desert-dwellers. And magic and gods can always be used to create/justify things that don't quite fit...

They haven't invented clocks yet, but it does mean that their 'sunwise' and, for example, a northerner's 'sunwise' would go in opposite directions. Could be an interesting plot-point in a description in another story, where such confusion could lead someone into danger...

Roxxsmom · Nov 22, 2014

It's an aside, but clocks of varying kinds are actually very ancient inventions.

http://nrich.maths.org/6070

http://www.nist.gov/pml/general/time/early.cfm

These are a couple of sites where got lost for way too long while researching the topic.

GeoWriter · Nov 22, 2014

Cool world! Just a couple of things to think about. Presuming an Earth-like global circulation, the East coast will be influenced by prevailing winds either off the ocean or off the continent, depending on the latitude. From the equator southward, there will be a sequence of zones of wet all year, wet summers dry winters, wet winters dry summers and more continental climate (colder winters, hotter summers, drier) farther south where prevailing westerlies dominate bringing continental air over the coast. As others pointed out, the interior will be drier than the coasts, but will be most dry near about 30 degrees latitude (if Earth-like).

blacbird · Nov 22, 2014

The concepts of "south" and "north" are entirely arbitrary. In our history they were established by cartographers primarily as a convenience for mapping and navigation, back in the age of exploration by sail. If you travel to Australia, you will have no trouble finding maps with "south" oriented to the top, in any tourist gift shop. Your question strikes me as a meaningless tangent inconsequential to any story you have to tell.

caw

Kevin Nelson · Nov 22, 2014

Tanydwr said:
Does anyone have any world-building tips for things that I, having spent my entire life in the northern hemisphere, might not know/realise? I know, obviously, that north becomes the warmer direction, and that the sun would travel east to west via the north, not the south, therefore travelling anti-clockwise, and that lunar eclipses would show the moons (there's two at this point - one of them blows up when the first 'turning' becomes the second after some idiot decides to mess with the gods and resurrect the dead) travelling from left to right across the sun.

I'm from the northern hemisphere, but I suspect I live at a lower latitude than you. Here, during the summer, the sun passes more or less straight overhead. Not exactly overhead, but close enough that it's hard to tell the difference. Since the terms "clockwise" and "counter-clockwise" don't apply to things that pass overhead, I would never have thought to apply them to the Sun's motion.

Likewise, I would be more likely to describe the Moon's motion during an eclipse as "up" or "down" rather than left or right.

In case some of the world's inhabitants are at low southern latitudes, relatively near the equator, these might be things to keep in mind.

Helix · Nov 22, 2014

I live at about 17S and the sun definitely passes to the north, although it is quite high overhead in summer.

blacbird · Nov 23, 2014

Addendum and clarification to my previous post: "north" and "south" are arbitrary labels. "Equatorial" and "polar" are not. The inhabitants of any rotating planet will have an understanding of these geometrical relationships to their parent star.

Trust me on this. I live at 61 degrees latitude (north, by arbitrary convention) and at this time of year, given the Earth's axial tilt (~23 degrees), that matters a lot for the seasonal climate.

caw

Roxxsmom · Nov 23, 2014

It's very true that if your civilization is in the Southern Hemisphere, and it thinks of itself as the center of the world, either because it hasn't discovered Northern Hemisphere continents or civilizations yet, or because it really is the only continent or the only place in your world where people live, its frame of reference would just be normal for its inhabitants. Not worthy of comment. They may well put south as "up" on their maps, even, though early maps were not always oriented the way ours are today.

I'd look at maps of the world and look at things like ocean currents, the trade winds, the jet stream and so on in both the northern and southern hemispheres, then try to extrapolate those things to the position of the continents and oceans in your created world. Unless you want to get fancy with things like day length, axial tilt, and so on, the same rules that drive conditions on our planet will be present on yours.

This is all assuming that they're even relevant to your story. Will things like ocean navigation, weather and so on figure prominently?

Having two moons will have a huge effect on tides. Of course, the size and distance of those moons will have effects as well. And consider that it's rather a coincidence that the moon is just the right size and at just the right distance from the sun for it to be able to effect a total eclipse sometimes when it crosses the face of the sun. If the moon were just a bit smaller, or just a bit further away, all solar eclipses would be annular.

Kevin Nelson · Nov 23, 2014

Helix said:
I live at about 17S and the sun definitely passes to the north, although it is quite high overhead in summer.

That sounds like pretty much what I had in mind...would you agree that at your latitude, it is inapt to describe the Sun's motion as either clockwise or counter-clockwise? My feeling is that when the Sun is within twenty-five degrees or so of zenith, the casual observer won't notice whether it's north or south, though of course a careful observer could tell.

On a totally unrelated side-note, your avatar has finally allowed me to identify the unusual birds I photographed on my trip to Cairns three years ago!

Tanydwr · Nov 23, 2014

Thanks for all the responses. My viewpoint character for the (currently only) novel set in this world is from 1980s Britain, so she - or her siblings - will notice things like the sun going in the 'wrong' direction. She's equally surprised to find that the rooms don't seem to have fireplaces - a small one has a brazier - but that's alright, they'll be mucking about with the castle architecture soon.

I read that the sun either goes directly overhead or to the south above the Tropic of Capricorn (that's the one in the southern hemisphere, isn't it?), but since the climate I want is Mediterranean-like, I think equivalency would put it in the north. I'm also aware that with such a large stretch of ocean to the east, even with islands in the way (all roughly the size of Ireland or smaller, at present anyway, as they're slowing breaking off the supercontinent), that there's likely to be distinct difference in the summer and winter or wet/dry seasons.

All I need are some bits I can know about my world, use to inform the backstory, without making someone with a bit of knowledge about geography utterly cringe. (I'm also the sort of person who uses spreadsheets to keep track of her timelines so no one can accuse me of stupid maths mistakes.)

Thanks!

Helix · Nov 23, 2014

Tanydwr said:
I read that the sun either goes directly overhead or to the south above the Tropic of Capricorn (that's the one in the southern hemisphere, isn't it?), but since the climate I want is Mediterranean-like, I think equivalency would put it in the north. I'm also aware that with such a large stretch of ocean to the east, even with islands in the way (all roughly the size of Ireland or smaller, at present anyway, as they're slowing breaking off the supercontinent), that there's likely to be distinct difference in the summer and winter or wet/dry seasons.

You've got me completely confused now! When you say 'above the Tropic of Capricorn', do you mean closer to or further from the equator?

I've lived at 17S and 38S and the sun passes to the north in both locations.

In Australia, Mediterranean climates -- warm to hot dry summers, cool to mild wet winters -- are at higher latitudes (ie further south). The north coastal areas have a monsoon climate (hot wet summers with cyclones, warm dry winters).

ETA: No. I'm completely wrong. What a numpty. You're right. Apparently, it passes to the south around the summer solstice.

ETA2: I'm even more confused now. This calculator...I don't know...I give up.

Tanydwr · Nov 23, 2014

Helix said:
You've got me completely confused now! When you say 'above the Tropic of Capricorn', do you mean closer to or further from the equator?

Oops, sorry! I meant closer to the equator, but as I got that from Wikipedia, it is the sort of thing that needs verifying!

Thanks for mentioning the bits about where it's 'Mediterranean' in Australia. I'll have to have a good look and see what will work.

The story involves politics and people coming from neighbouring countries, so I need to work out what their climates look like so I can decide precisely which countries will best serve the plot in terms of what I want them demanding from the new monarchs (i.e. which want trade agreements for food due to bad farmland, but can offer wool or metals, which want to protect their own farmland, which want access to the sea or the magical Fountain, etc.).

Helix · Nov 23, 2014

I might have got myself confused about the sun's path -- *shakes fist at self* -- but I'm quite confident about ecosystems!

Albedo · Nov 23, 2014

Tanydwr, have you seen a hypothetical ideal continent map? It gives a good idea of where you would find the major climatic zones. Note that the Mediterranean, Southern California, and south-western Australia are all on the west side of their respective continents, wedged between desert and marine climates - well, a hypothetical marine climate in Western Australia's case, as there's bugger-all south of there but ocean.

MattW · Nov 23, 2014

Flat world riding on the back of a space tortise, and "a-wizard-did-it" weather patterns.

SamCoulson · Nov 24, 2014

Roxxsmom said:
Having two moons will have a huge effect on tides. Of course, the size and distance of those moons will have effects as well. And consider that it's rather a coincidence that the moon is just the right size and at just the right distance from the sun for it to be able to effect a total eclipse sometimes when it crosses the face of the sun. If the moon were just a bit smaller, or just a bit further away, all solar eclipses would be annular.

Not only that, when one of the moons is destroyed that would cause hugely significant changes in tides, storms, weather systems, etc. And like Roxx says, the solar eclipse issue--there may have been quite a few more in the old-age, but there would be fewer without one of the moons. This could be interesting in general world-building as it would impact ravel, navigation superstition, etc.

So make sure you are building up the superstitions, etc., in the first section so you can make use of the differences in the second turning. Both can be used to help define the nature and tone of the civilizations/culture in each if you sit down and really think out what it would be like, and then how it would affect the culture, magic, trade, etc.

Tanydwr · Nov 24, 2014

SamCoulson said:
Not only that, when one of the moons is destroyed that would cause hugely significant changes in tides, storms, weather systems, etc. And like Roxx says, the solar eclipse issue--there may have been quite a few more in the old-age, but there would be fewer without one of the moons.

I haven't quite worked out the tides issue yet. One of the moons is very like ours in size and distance, while the other is much smaller and further away - it's that one that will be destroyed. In the case of the smaller moon, eclipses would be longer, but they would never be total, as it's not even a quarter of the size of the sun.

In the sense of the destruction of each 'turning,' it's essentially sending people back to an almost-Stone Age sort of society where they're scrabbling to get food while the world has been struck by meteorites from the destroyed moon, and discoveries fall by the wayside in favour of survival. There will be superstitions and stories - ideas of how the world was creating will directly reference the destruction of the old world, there will be stories of a second moon and how it came to disappear from the sky, the concept of the World Tree will exist in all three turnings, and a legend/myth of an immortal called the Shield of Mankind in the third turning may get an actual story in the first or second.

Thanks for the link, Albedo - I'll check it out! Wouldn't it be nice for someone to invent software for creating 'realistic' fantasy worlds for writers? And it would tell you the climates?

RDArmstrong · Nov 25, 2014

I think between 30S to 35S is temperate. That's a pretty stable temperature.

One of the reasons we have an ice age is that the continents have separated to form a line that blocks the warmer currents from the equator circulating effectively enough to stop the sea freezing. So I imagine you'd have less or no sea ice. Furthermore the whole Earth would be more temperate as the currents will be able to more freely disperse warmer water from which ever hemisphere is receiving more sunlight at the time.

I'd wager that the most southern tip of the giant continent (if in the southern hemisphere) would have the most land ice as given the larger size of the continent would limit the warmer currents ability to get around it. But it depends on where you put the supercontinent, if you had it where Antarctica is now then it could be possible that the center of the continent would be ice and the coasts would be all quite temperate.

Tanydwr · Nov 27, 2014

That's a very good point, I hadn't thought about having the continent mostly or entirely in the southern hemisphere with the centre as an icy desert instead of tropical rainforest / hot desert.

Does anyone know if having land-mass at both poles would change the northern hemisphere climate?

LittleKiwi · Jan 31, 2015

I don't know if this is relevant at all, but having lived in several different countries (Australia, New Zealand, England) and travelled in several others (Morocco, US, Malaysia, Italy and France) I've never actually taken note of the sun being in a different place. Unless they use the position of the sun for a very specific purpose to begin with I wouldn't imagine they'd notice either...

World Building in the Southern Hemisphere

Tanydwr

Dryad

benbenberi

practical experience, FTW

Tanydwr

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido

GeoWriter

blacbird

Kevin Nelson

Aspiring to authorship since 1975

Helix

socially distancing

blacbird

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido

Kevin Nelson

Aspiring to authorship since 1975

Tanydwr

Helix

socially distancing

Tanydwr

Helix

socially distancing

Albedo

Alex

MattW

Company Man

SamCoulson

Tanydwr

RDArmstrong

Tanydwr

LittleKiwi