I found something upsetting

I don't see my culture as intellectual property. I just happen to be born into it; it's not "mine" or "ours". I'm happy for non-Guyanese to come to my country and integrate themselves as much as possible, doing the things we do, speaking the way we speak. I know several people who married foreigners who subsequently adapted completely, to become more Guyanese than the Guyanese!

Similarly, when I first went to India in 1973 I "became" Indian. I lived, moved and had my being as an Indian, and when a very highly respected Indian woman gave me a sari, I wore nothing but saris for rest of my year there. If not for my hair, which is very non-Indian, I could easily have "passed". Now, when I go to India, (next week! yay!) I shall wear a salwar kameez every day and adapt myself completely to the Hindu life of the ashram I shall be staying in. I'm so glad that Indians don't consider that I am stealing their heritage!!!
There are different perspectives to the issue. This is mine.

I hope you have fun.

aruna said:

I don't see my culture as intellectual property. I just happen to be born into it; it's not "mine" or "ours". I'm happy for non-Guyanese to come to my country and integrate themselves as much as possible, doing the things we do, speaking the way we speak. I know several people who married foreigners who subsequently adapted completely, to become more Guyanese than the Guyanese!

Similarly, when I first went to India in 1973 I "became" Indian. I lived, moved and had my being as an Indian, and when a very highly respected Indian woman gave me a sari, I wore nothing but saris for rest of my year there. If not for my hair, which is very non-Indian, I could easily have "passed". Now, when I go to India, (next week! yay!) I shall wear a salwar kameez every day and adapt myself completely to the Hindu life of the ashram I shall be staying in. I'm so glad that Indians don't consider that I am stealing their heritage!!!
There are different perspectives to the issue. This is mine.

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I feel like you (and others) are misunderstanding me.

I am fully supportive of sharing cultures. See my earlier post:

kuwisdelu said:

To anyone who wishes other cultures would "share" their culture:

I personally invite you to come to Shalako in Zuni.

It is the beginning of our end-of-the-year ceremonies, around winter solstice. It usually takes place on the first weekend in December. The Shalako are six tall bird-like kachina dancers who come into the village to dance all night long, accompanied by other kachinas like the Shulawitsi (little fire god) who lights the first fire of the new year, and the Sayatasha (long horn) who brings new seeds to plant in the spring. They dance from midnight until dawn in six new houses around the village.

I will personally be your guide, and show you around the village, and the dances, as long as you are respectful and obey our tribal laws and religious guidelines.

I will personally take you to the artist co-op to buy authentic Zuni jewelry and arts and crafts directly from the artists.

I have friends who I am sure would be happy to take you to a powwow and invite you to take part in a social dance.

In return, I only ask that you please do not dress up as an Indian for Halloween. Please do not wear Indian head dresses or "war bonnets". Please do not "play Indian". Please be respectful of our attempts to protect our culture.

I will be happy to share my culture with you. I only ask that you please respect it.

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In a more polite and egalitarian society, I feel like I wouldn't have to think of culture as intellectual property.

But Western society is not polite. It takes and it takes and it takes, until you have nothing left, and so we have had to adapt to Western society's ways of doing things to protect what we have left.

For a while back in the 90s, we actually banned non-Indians from attending Shalako, because too many non-Indians were acting disrespectfully and treated it as entertainment or a tourist attraction rather than a serious religious ritual. We didn't want to do that, but we had to protect our culture. Outsiders are welcome again, and I see more non-Indians every year. I'm totally happy with that (except when they hog the good seats and views).

In the past, we have even initiated outsiders into our kivas, dancing societies, and priesthoods. (Although it is rare.) For example, Frank Hamilton Cushing, was initiated into the Bow Priesthood. One of my uncles even offered to initiate my white father into his kiva. (My father turned down the offer.)

This is sharing of culture.

It is very different from appropriation, which is done without permission, without respect, and without regard to the feelings of the people from that culture.

I love you aruna, and I would love for you to visit sometime and share my culture. I would have my mother gift you a shawl to wear to the dances.

I see that kind of sharing of culture as being miles away from, for example, appropriating ceremonial regalia as hipster fashion statements, factually, historically, and culturally misrepresenting our stories as children's fairy tales, or hijacking our very likeness as stereotyped sports mascots.

aruna said:

I don't see my culture as intellectual property. I just happen to be born into it; it's not "mine" or "ours". I'm happy for non-Guyanese to come to my country and integrate themselves as much as possible, doing the things we do, speaking the way we speak. I know several people who married foreigners who subsequently adapted completely, to become more Guyanese than the Guyanese!

Similarly, when I first went to India in 1973 I "became" Indian. I lived, moved and had my being as an Indian, and when a very highly respected Indian woman gave me a sari, I wore nothing but saris for rest of my year there. If not for my hair, which is very non-Indian, I could easily have "passed". Now, when I go to India, (next week! yay!) I shall wear a salwar kameez every day and adapt myself completely to the Hindu life of the ashram I shall be staying in. I'm so glad that Indians don't consider that I am stealing their heritage!!!
There are different perspectives to the issue. This is mine.

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I think that what you're describing is different from swiping something from another culture just because it's cool. Mainly because it takes great respect to adapt to another culture so fully and not some passing cool factor. It's like why I call my cousins grandmother Yiey and my own grandmothers were/are Nana. Yiey is Yiey because she is as good as my own grandmother in my eyes and that is Khmer for grandmother. It's like how I ate the same food, celebrated the same holidays, listened to the same music and watched the same shows as my Kurdish friend when I was in middle school. She was my friend and I respected her and her culture enough to immerse myself in it when at her house instead of demanding it change because I was there.

kuwisdelu said:

I feel like you (and others) are misunderstanding me.

I am fully supportive of sharing cultures. See my earlier post:



In a more polite and egalitarian society, I feel like I wouldn't have to think of culture as intellectual property.

But Western society is not polite. It takes and it takes and it takes, until you have nothing left, and so we have had to adapt to Western society's ways of doing things to protect what we have left.

For a while back in the 90s, we actually banned non-Indians from attending Shalako, because too many non-Indians were acting disrespectfully and treated it as entertainment or a tourist attraction rather than a serious religious ritual. We didn't want to do that, but we had to protect our culture. Outsiders are welcome again, and I see more non-Indians every year. I'm totally happy with that (except when they hog the good seats and views).

In the past, we have even initiated outsiders into our kivas, dancing societies, and priesthoods. (Although it is rare.) For example, Frank Hamilton Cushing, was initiated into the Bow Priesthood. One of my uncles even offered to initiate my white father into his kiva. (My father turned down the offer.)

This is sharing of culture.

It is very different from appropriation, which is done without permission, without respect, and without regard to the feelings of the people from that culture.

I love you aruna, and I would love for you to visit sometime and share my culture. I would have my mother gift you a shawl to wear to the dances.

I see that kind of sharing of culture as being miles away from, for example, appropriating ceremonial regalia as hipster fashion statements, factually, historically, and culturally misrepresenting our stories as children's fairy tales, or hijacking our very likeness as stereotyped sports mascots.

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Yea, I think there's a big difference in being invited to share in something vs just taking without care or respect or gratitude. When one of my best friends got married, she had a traditional Sikh wedding and got a sari for me to wear as her bridesmaid. During the ceremony, those of us who aren't familiar with the tradition made sure to remain respectful and not disrupt anything. Afterwards, the priest thanked us for not being rowdy or taking pictures and generally treating the ceremony with respect. I see that as different from donning a sari and Bindi for funsies and going, "don't I look exotic and cute with this on you guys?!"

One day I'll take you up on that offer, Kuwi!!!! Don't forget!

I live part of the year in FL and because of the heat and humidity, lots of people of every race get braids because it's just an easy way to keep your hair under control.

Her braids are beautiful! And the blonde color highlights the detail.

And hair can definitely be a hot button issue for some people. I wish it wasn't. I wear my hair in a big afro most days. When I lived in Manhattan, I passed by the huge Virgin Store in Union Sq where a black guy was up on a milk crate selling some of the CDs he produced. As I passed by in a sea of people, not caring much about what he had to sell, he immediately pointed me out. "C'mon, Angela Davis, my proud sista, help another brotha out." I either ignored him or plainly said no, to which he responded. "You don't even deserve to be wearing that afro." WTF. Like that comment was gonna make me pick up his CD. And he couldn't have been a few years older than me. C'mon, bro, what do you know about Angela Davis? She was more than a hairstyle.

Another fun episode: I used to work at an interior design firm that catered to high end clientele, one of which was a famous interior designer and his manservant, whom carried around the designer's portable dog on a satin pillow (not even joking). When he first saw me, he put the dog down on his floor, approached and placed his head on my fro. "Like a pillow," he said. Talk about invasion of privacy!

Quite honestly, though, I take those moments and appreciate them. I'd rather the face to face awkwardness than thousands of strangers tweeting about my hair... that seems like a whole other level of weirdo. But, because we've legitimized what appears to be a virtual milk crate to stand on, its somehow newsworthy to talk about... I guess.

Kuwi, can I please ask you a question?

You know there is this meme about how Native American mothers name their children after the first thing the mother sees after giving birth? Is there any actual truth in that?

The reason I ask is someone on another board told a very offensive joke based on that idea (offensive to women rather than your culture) and I pretty much ripped his head off. Part of his defence was that all but one of the names were taken from Dances with Wolves. 'Indians really do that!' was his statement. I was about to rip his other head off when I suddenly thought 'hang on..... I don't know if they do and it's been corrupted or if they don't do it at all.'
So I thought I would ask. Is there any tribe that does this?

mirandashell said:

Kuwi, can I please ask you a question?

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Please.

You know there is this meme about how Native American mothers name their children after the first thing the mother sees after giving birth? Is there any actual truth in that?

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I've never of heard it.

Of course, there are hundreds of tribes with different customs, but it sounds very invented to me.

The reason I ask is someone on another board told a very offensive joke based on that idea (offensive to women rather than your culture) and I pretty much ripped his head off. Part of his defence was that all but one of the names were taken from Dances with Wolves. 'Indians really do that!' was his statement. I was about to rip his other head off when I suddenly thought 'hang on..... I don't know if they do and it's been corrupted or if they don't do it at all.'

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Oy. Never trust Hollywood Indians. It's all invented.

Edit: Actually, never trust Hollywood full stop.

Commence head ripping.

Thank you, I will.

On the horrible joke:
Terry Pratchett used it in Reaper Man!!! I didn't know that
It was also in the movie Silkwood.

http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=2834

Most jokes about races and how they name their babies are complete trash.

Ah no, to be fair to TP, the joke I'm talking about is way way way more offensive than the One Man Bucket joke.

But yeah, it's not often PTerry fails in understanding but he did there.

Lhowling said:

Another fun episode: I used to work at an interior design firm that catered to high end clientele, one of which was a famous interior designer and his manservant, whom carried around the designer's portable dog on a satin pillow (not even joking). When he first saw me, he put the dog down on his floor, approached and placed his head on my fro. "Like a pillow," he said. Talk about invasion of privacy!

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Wow. There are no words for how uncomfortable this sounds. Hearing about it makes my skin crawl.

Yeah, this is ridiculous. No one culture can claim ownership of something countless cultures have been doing since the dawn of time. If you see that hairstyle and think "black woman", all that shows is that you have an extremely limited sense of culture-- your own and everyone else's. Hair braiding is almost universal on planet earth. It's one of the basic things human beings do with their hair. It has been for thousands of years (yes, even in white European cultures). We're all "allowed" to braid our hair (men too!). It's just a human thing.

snafu1056 said:

Yeah, this is ridiculous. No one culture can claim ownership of something countless cultures have been doing since the dawn of time. If you see that hairstyle and think "black woman", all that shows is that you have an extremely limited sense of culture-- your own and everyone else's. Hair braiding is almost universal on planet earth. It's one of the basic things human beings do with their hair. It has been for thousands of years (yes, even in white European cultures). We're all "allowed" to braid our hair (men too!). It's just a human thing.

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Have you even bothered to read the entire thread before spouting something so hyperbolic? If not, then I feel the need to inform you, just because another culture in a different time and place does something doesn't mean that here and now in the US such braids aren't mainly a Black thing. Try another stratergy if you really want someone to change their mind, because your current one is extremely ineffective.

Lillith1991 said:

Have you even bothered to read the entire thread before spouting something so hyperbolic? If not, then I feel the need to inform you, just because another culture in a different time and place does something doesn't mean that here and now in the US such braids aren't mainly a Black thing. Try another stratergy if you really want someone to change their mind, because your current one is extremely ineffective.

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I'll give any culture all the leeway in the world to fight for things that truly are theirs. But in this case I'm just not buying the claim of ownership (and so I disagree that this little girl is appropriating anything). I don't accept braids as the cultural property of any one group. And I certainly don't see it as a "black" hairstyle because it's only one of many diverse hair styles black women (like any other kind of women) wear. I'm not arguing that black Americans dont have their own unique hairstyles that are their cultural inventions, I just don't buy this one as being one of them. No matter what the perception is.

@snafu: every culture has braids, sure. But inside the US, box braids are specifically a black thing, and denying that is pretty unusual.

Type "box braids" into google images. The first page of search results is, like, twenty black women and two pictures of the same white girl.

ViridianChick said:

Wow. There are no words for how uncomfortable this sounds. Hearing about it makes my skin crawl.

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It always amazes me how people act or think. Don't get me wrong, it wasn't particularly traumatizing. I was just like, "Um... usually a dinner and movie precedes this type of intimacy." But he was gay so I guess that wasn't an option *shrugs*

And maybe because I don't use twitter; but honestly I'd rather that type of response than thousands of people tweeting over something that's so dumb and not worth the time of day. It's hair, people, not a statement.

snafu1056 said:

I'll give any culture all the leeway in the world to fight for things that truly are theirs. But in this case I'm just not buying the claim of ownership (and so I disagree that this little girl is appropriating anything). I don't accept braids as the cultural property of any one group. And I certainly don't see it as a "black" hairstyle because it's only one of many diverse hair styles black women (like any other kind of women) wear. I'm not arguing that black Americans dont have their own unique hairstyles that are their cultural inventions, I just don't buy this one as being one of them. No matter what the perception is.

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From what I've read - and certainly from ViridianChick's reponse - in the US this type of braiding is uniquely African American. Sure, there are people who braid their hair in other cultures in other parts of the world - and they may well be White - but not necessarily the same way African Americans do. There will be certain ways of doing things that are unique to a specific group of people, and it's the appropriation of that specific method/style that is the main issue here. The issue isn't about braiding hair itself, but the appropriation of a style unique to African Americans who have often been called out on wearing that hairstyle, for being different.

The way it usually goes is White people don't bat an eyelid at this girl or any other White person wearing that hairstyle - or various other hairstyles - but they don't afford the same tolerance towards African Americans or other PoC. That is why some things are off-limits unless the culture that created it - in this case, African American culture - says otherwise. This is well illustrated in Kuwisdelu's post:

kuwisdelu said:

To anyone who wishes other cultures would "share" their culture:

I personally invite you to come to Shalako in Zuni.

It is the beginning of our end-of-the-year ceremonies, around winter solstice. It usually takes place on the first weekend in December. The Shalako are six tall bird-like kachina dancers who come into the village to dance all night long, accompanied by other kachinas like the Shulawitsi (little fire god) who lights the first fire of the new year, and the Sayatasha (long horn) who brings new seeds to plant in the spring. They dance from midnight until dawn in six new houses around the village.

I will personally be your guide, and show you around the village, and the dances, as long as you are respectful and obey our tribal laws and religious guidelines.

I will personally take you to the artist co-op to buy authentic Zuni jewelry and arts and crafts directly from the artists.

I have friends who I am sure would be happy to take you to a powwow and invite you to take part in a social dance.

In return, I only ask that you please do not dress up as an Indian for Halloween. Please do not wear Indian head dresses or "war bonnets". Please do not "play Indian". Please be respectful of our attempts to protect our culture.

I will be happy to share my culture with you. I only ask that you please respect it.

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He has openly invited people to share in his culture, and after White people were banned from that for a time. Things change, but it depends upon the behaviour of outsiders. Why would anyone openly invite people who disrespect them into their own homes, their own lives? Especially people who expect respect for their own culture, but then commercialise and trivialise others?

There may be a time when White people can wear this type of braiding without it ever being an issue, but that time isn't here yet - first it has to not be an issue when an African American wears it. I'm a White person, but I will say it - if a PoC can't wear it or practice it without being discriminated against in some manner, a White person certainly has no right in doing it; it's double-standards, do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do.*

It'd be a completely different story if this girl had been from one of those Scandinavian countries with the metal bands and rich Viking heritage, and she'd styled her hair on their braids (or as an American if she was a big fan of those bands) - but those aren't the reasons behind her hair being braided.

*I'm not excusing the abuse this girl received - I haven't read the link, but based on past events that have been in the news, I can easily imagine the sheer idiocy and nastiness of people on Twitter and the internet in general. I agree she could have been taken to one side and educated about the issues in a polite and informative way; children do the silliest stuff, and don't always understand the consequences of their actions. Once they understand the issues at hand they'll probably feel right plonkers.

mccardey said:

No, it doesn't meant that, Ken. The Urban Dictionary definition of "mansplaining" is


Whitesplaining is a similar thing but from a different perspective in a different conversation.

ETA: When I oldsplained to my kids that this sort of terminology was Just Bloody Impertinence! they youngsplained it all to me...

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And mansplaining these days often comes in the form of "explaining" how many of the negative experiences women (same for other underrepresented groups) have in society--rape not being taken seriously by police, courts or universities; lower wages; less representation in government or managerial positions; female authors' books being reviewed less often; being talked about less frequently by bloggers, the leaky pipeline in STEM professions; sexual harassment or what have you--all of these things either are just paranoid delusions, or really women's own faults, or simply just an inevitable consequence of biology or human nature that really isn't a problem (sucks to be you, ladies, but it's a man's world).

Sometimes it's well meant--there are a huge number of men (and women) who really want sexism and racism to be things of the past, so they'll tend to notice the things that are better than they once were, or to search for other explanations that are less sinister that arguably give women or PoC more control than they always have (if you really wanted to be engineers and scientists, you wouldn't leave the profession). People aren't categorically jerks just because of their race or gender.

But we tend to see things differently when they don't affect us directly, or if we personally haven't run into a particular roadblock.

Hence the hair thing. To me, a white person who grew up in a very white-dominated, affluent community, it never even occurred to me that what seems to me to be a common hairstyle could be a point of cultural identity. But that doesn't mean I'm incapable of learning why it might be for some people, or that I should "whitesplain" to someone why it shouldn't be.

Halftime for the Superbowl had something funny/ironic (or clueless) in my Twitter feed regarding cultural appropriation:

-- Various comments about Katy Perry focused on her bad outfit (agreed here!) and the cool lion (yeah ).

-- Missy comes on and it's all excitement (agreed here!)

-- White SJW (whom I do usually like, btw!) tweets about how this must be the cultural appropriation portion of the show.

What? No! It's MISSY. Wtf?

Did she mean why was Katy still standing there? I don't think anybody cared, because she was way upstaged at that part if that's the only 'problem'.

Please don't tell me she just doesn't recognize Missy Elliott while calling out rap cultural appropriation

How is rap at the Superbowl cultural appropriation, though? I don't think I get it unless she really didn't recognize her.

One of my friends commented on her tiger-skin outfit in the commercials, but I don't know what could've been the issue with the halftime show itself.

Though when Missy came out and Katy Perry was trying to keep up, I did shake my head and think "just stop, Katy, you're embarrassing yourself".

The rest was great. Gotta love Lenny Kravitz.

Roxxsmom said:

And mansplaining these days often comes in the form of "explaining" how many of the negative experiences women (same for other underrepresented groups) have in society--rape not being taken seriously by police, courts or universities; lower wages; less representation in government or managerial positions; female authors' books being reviewed less often; being talked about less frequently by bloggers, the leaky pipeline in STEM professions; sexual harassment or what have you--all of these things either are just paranoid delusions, or really women's own faults, or simply just an inevitable consequence of biology or human nature that really isn't a problem (sucks to be you, ladies, but it's a man's world).

Sometimes it's well meant--there are a huge number of men (and women) who really want sexism and racism to be things of the past, so they'll tend to notice the things that are better than they once were, or to search for other explanations that are less sinister that arguably give women or PoC more control than they always have (if you really wanted to be engineers and scientists, you wouldn't leave the profession). People aren't categorically jerks just because of their race or gender.

But we tend to see things differently when they don't affect us directly, or if we personally haven't run into a particular roadblock.

Hence the hair thing. To me, a white person who grew up in a very white-dominated, affluent community, it never even occurred to me that what seems to me to be a common hairstyle could be a point of cultural identity. But that doesn't mean I'm incapable of learning why it might be for some people, or that I should "whitesplain" to someone why it shouldn't be.

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... though we disagree, to an extent, I admire your advocacy