"Appropiate" language for fantasy?

I've just finished up writing a flintlock-y series. The MC's use pretty modern language (more or less formal depending on character and situation). Joe Abercrombie and various other authors do the same

Personally, if you make it sound like it's actually mediaeval, unless you are VERY good, I'll probably put the book down

I certainly will at the first, non ironical, use of gadzooks or prithee.

So anyway, this is fantasy, not historical (and even then you don't want it so archaic it makes people roll their eyes). You do not have to make it sound ancient, or try to imitate Tolkien. YOU get to decide the style of the book and the language.

Personally, I'd stick with modern english and just avoid anachronisms. Depending, of course, on how much of a fantasy it is.

If you're trying to do, say, Regency England & Napoleonic Wars, but with magic, I'd expect more historically-accurate word choices. Start by picking a time period and sticking to it, because languages change fast. Chaucer is not the same as Shakespeare or Pope. Flintlock-era is not the same as Medieval.

If you've created your own world, you can do what you want as long as it's consistent and not accidentally referring to tech that hasn't been invented yet, or cultural details that are too obviously out of place. Like, say, describing something as 'a Freudian slip' in a world where Freud has never existed.

I hope that helps

Great advice so far--I'd add to watch that your slang matches your world, especially when it comes to swearing. For instance, the world of my WIP has no concept of damnation, so I've had to train myself not to use 'hell' or 'damn it.' It was fun coming up with substitutes.

My advice would be to write in modern language without any glaring slang or Earth references. Archaic language gives me a headache, and most of the recently-published fantasy I've read uses modern language.

It's fine to write with modern language, but you probably want to avoid modern slang and phrases that would make no sense in your world because certain technological developments have not yet happened.

Period dialog is tricky as heck to get right (unless you really know that period and read a lot of stuff that was actually written then), and even trickier to make appealing to a modern reader. I can't think of any recent fantasy novels that lay period language on really thick (though this may be a simple reflection of my tastes, which would make me close any book that is filled with "thous" and "thees" and inverted sentences. Some writers opt for a fairly neutral but modern style of speech that has been stripped of obvious anachronistic cultural references and modern slang (no yo, dude stuff). They may include a few period appropriate words or phrases (like calling an outhouse the jakes) without going all unabridged Shakespeare on the reader.

Some writers (Abercrombie, Lynch, Martin and others) go for an even more modern style of speech, replete with swearing and references to bodily functions, (though it's important to note that even in the old days, writers were much more crude and profane than we often suppose).

This is probably one of those things that you'll have to decide based on your own tastes as a reader. How do your favorite fantasy writers approach this?

Roxxsmom said:

Some writers opt for a fairly neutral but modern style of speech that has been stripped of obvious anachronistic cultural references and modern slang (no yo, dude stuff). They may include a few period appropriate words or phrases (like calling an outhouse the jakes) without going all unabridged Shakespeare on the reader.

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^This sounds about right. Nothing too obvious either way.

Roxxsmom said:

Some writers opt for a fairly neutral but modern style of speech that has been stripped of obvious anachronistic cultural references and modern slang (no yo, dude stuff).

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That would work for me too. I'm not keen on words like "Hey" and "Okay" in a medieval setting, but I've also found that I notice those most (and get annoyed by them the most) when I'm not fully immersed in the story.

My grandfather always said "hi" instead of "hey", and he never used "hi" to mean "hello". I always liked that, and in my head, it sounds gently old-fashioned and evokes a happy nostalgia in me. Unfortunately, there's no way for me to include it in dialogue without confusing the reader, because no one reads "hi" to mean "may I have your attention" anymore, even in the region where my grandfather grew up.

You can tweak the way your characters speak to give the impression that they are from another time, but too much accuracy will tend to get in the way of reader immersion. Your prose needs to be invisible enough that the reader can drop right into that world with no verbal problem-solving required on their part.

For that reason, I also vote for using neutral modern language with the anachronisms stripped out. Go ahead and tweak the rhythm of the dialogue, but keep the actual language very, very readable.

Marlys said:

Great advice so far--I'd add to watch that your slang matches your world, especially when it comes to swearing. For instance, the world of my WIP has no concept of damnation, so I've had to train myself not to use 'hell' or 'damn it.' It was fun coming up with substitutes.

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This. Watch out for loan-words as well, if there's no France no-one'll be using French words.

Do not try to write period dialogue. You are not a period writer. You are a modern writer. Use non-slangy modern dialogue, and do your best to adhere to the caveats mentioned above.

Unfortunately, this can be hard to do. While it is easy to adopt features of other dialects, it is very, very hard to eliminate characteristic features of your own. This is what beta readers are for. Preferably some who don't speak your own dialect.

I am thinking of a certain modern writer of Victorian romances who appears to write her dialogue in slangy modern American English, then do search-and-replace for a dozen common words, which she replaces with preposterously archaic, vaguely Victorian ones. NOT the way to go.

But really, her problem is that she shouldn't be pretending to write Victorian romances.

Chaucer:
Ye knowe ek that in forme of speeche is chaunge
Withinne a thousand yeer, and wordes tho
That hadden pris, now wonder nyce and straunge
Us thinketh hem, and yet thei spake hem so,
And spedde as wel in love as men now do;
Ek for to wynnen love in sondry ages,
In sondry londes, sondry ben usages."

That is Middle English - people struggle enough with Elizabethan/Shakespearean English and very few would thank you being authentic with your mediaeval story.

MrNumbahOne said:

I should clarify. It's not that I intend to write it out in Shakespeare English or something similar, for I have every intention in writing in modern English. It's that I don't know what words or phrases can or cannot be considered "slang" and should therefore be avoided.

Like when I'm referring to a prostitute, I doubt the common people (or any other, really) actually called them by that term. Therefore would it be off-putting to use "whore" or "hooker"? Another big problem is swearing. Would it be weird to use modern swear words, like (pardon my French) "fuck", "shit", or "dick"? And if not, how about if they use it in modern ways, as in "go fuck yourself", "fucker", "eat shit", or "quit being a dick". Or how about various scientific words (not too advanced, obviously) like "cells" or "coma"? Would any of these lose immersion?

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I'd avoid the scientific words that don't fit the level of science in your society. If you aren't sure, look it up. "Coma," for instance, dates to the 1600s, so may be fine in your context.

I'd watch slang that can be traced to a particular place and time. "Whore" would be fine for me, but not "hooker," which is chiefly American (although it's not true, many people believe the legend that it's Civil War slang related to General Hooker).

As for swearing with good ol' fashioned words like "fuck" and "shit," I'd have no problem with that. Again, you want to be true to the world you're building. If there are no sexual taboos, "fuck" might not be seen as a bad word. And depending on social structure, "sisterfucker" or "unclefucker" might be filthier than "motherfucker." As for "dick," "peter," "johnson," "john thomas," etc.: they're all words for penis that derive from men's names. If your fantasy world has everyone named Hagnar and Odith and no Dicks at all, then don't use 'dick.'

Two issues, I think. Is the language appropriate for the setting and is it going to hurt your sales?

Only you can decide that. Some swear words are relatively recent and might seem out of place. We don't swear like our ancestors used to.

I think you're best off checking this for yourself, on a case-by-case basis, and you can decide which words to use.

dictionary.com has a couple of sections at the bottom of each word definition talking about the history & etymology of words, usually including a date when it was first used, and if the usage or meaning of the ward has changed over the years. (thesaurus.com can give you alternative words.)

urbandictionary.com (NSFW!) lists modern slang words and gives you a good idea what today's readers might think of your word choices, though as it's an amateur site it obviously doesn't have any academic rigour, so don't automatically trust the explanations and meanings given.

I'd second Zellieh. Urban Dictionary can save you some embarrassing moments in social media, and help avoid howlers that modern readers would pick up in your story.

Totally depends on the style, voice, world building and what have you.

There's the high fantasy approach, where dialog and narrative are a bit more formal (like in Lord of the Rings), then there's George RR Martin's "The knights who say ****" approach, or something like Abercrobie's, where every character pov has a very distinct narrative voice, but none of them are what we'd call "Elevated," except maybe that Prat Jezal (and even he only thinks he's elevated).

Every approach has its fans and its detractors.

I think two things that are largely frowned on by fantasy readers is 1. the use of anachronistic references to concepts, people, or places that don't exist in your world. Like saying someone has a one-track mind or someone going "off the rails" in a character referenced narrative viewpoint when there are no trains. 2. Badly done "ye olde fake archaic dialog" that sounds like a bunch of sixth graders trying to write like Shakespeare or something.

Note that I judge fantasy set in a setting that's like the flintlock era differently than historical fantasy set in the actual flintlock era. I'm harder on out of place language and usage in historical fiction (omg the word collaborate hasn't been invented yet in 1722, what was the author thinking), but even so, I wouldn't want to read a novel set in Elizabethan times where the characters are speaking bona fide Elizabethan English.

Roxxsmom said:

Note that I judge fantasy set in a setting that's like the flintlock era differently than historical fantasy set in the actual flintlock era. I'm harder on out of place language and usage in historical fiction (omg the word collaborate hasn't been invented yet in 1722, what was the author thinking), but even so, I wouldn't want to read a novel set in Elizabethan times where the characters are speaking bona fide Elizabethan English.

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In the fantasy world that I'm developing, I'm going to write in modern English (no slang or, I hope, anachronistic references) but maybe a bit formal and "elevated" in situations that call for it (such as when the royals are addressing the people or conversing with the gods). If I'm writing a tavern scene or whatever, and a character is drunk, the "speech" (as much as s/he can manage it) will be a lot less formal.

However, in the screenplay that I'm writing for my fan film, which is set on Earth and in the 1450s, I have the MC talking very modern (although I still try to avoid anachronistic references), even dropping a few f-bombs. However, it's casually revealed at one point that everyone is "really" speaking Hungarian, and what the audience will view is a translation.

Marian Perera said:

That would work for me too. I'm not keen on words like "Hey" and "Okay" in a medieval setting, but I've also found that I notice those most (and get annoyed by them the most) when I'm not fully immersed in the story.

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I've caught myself writing "okay" a couple of times, and culled it, because it's a relatively recent phrase (mid 19th century). I never thought of "hey" as something strange, however. Something a person might say if someone bops them on the head, or shouts to get someone's attention.

Though I'm sure it probably has origins in the more recent past too.

That's where it gets strange. Some words are really quite old, but people think they're modern. And some words are fairly modern, yet almost no one thinks they're out of place, even in historical fiction.

I did a blog entry on this a while back, where I tossed out some of those words that are older or newer than most people suppose.

MrNumbahOne said:

Like when I'm referring to a prostitute, I doubt the common people (or any other, really) actually called them by that term. Therefore would it be off-putting to use "whore" or "hooker"? Another big problem is swearing. Would it be weird to use modern swear words, like (pardon my French) "fuck", "shit", or "dick"?

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Whore was in use in Elizabethan times and is much older, I believe (or at least it's descended from a similar word that goes back a long ways). I've certainly seen the term used in medievalish fantasy too. Fuck and shit are quite old too, though of course usage has changed. Prick and pizzle wouldn't knock me out, but dick would. The use of dick to mean a penis is quite recent (mid 20th century), and anyway, does the man's name "Dick" even exist in your fantasy world?

The question comes down to translation. Is the culture in question likely to have equivalent words in their vocabulary, and if so, how are they likely to use them. As it turns out, the Romans spoke a different language than we do, yet they had words to describe sex acts, excrement, prostitutes, sexual anatomy and so on that were used very similarly to how we use them in the modern English-speaking world. Many of our modern swear words translate pretty well to their culture.

Conversely, medieval folks had some of the same words, yet they used many of them differently, and their most profane swear words were often religious in nature, not sexual or excretory.

A lot of our hangups about these words, and our aversion to sexual language and so on is more Victorian than medieval. Someone said in another thread that we're only just starting to "recover" from the Victorian era and develop a more historically normalized attitude about sex and so on.

And interesting thought. I'm no historian, but it does seem like our attitudes have evolved a lot in my own lifetime, though we've a long way to go (I mean, there are politicians who call oral contraceptives "whore pills," so...)

Mark Moore said:

I have the MC talking very modern (although I still try to avoid anachronistic references), even dropping a few f-bombs.

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F-bombs are not modern.

Online etymology dictionary (my go to site of choice which will give you the origins of the word and when it first appeared) notes

the earliest attested appearance of current spelling is 1535 ("Bischops ... may fuck thair fill and be vnmaryit" [Sir David Lyndesay, "Ane Satyre of the Thrie Estaits"])

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However probably much older in other spellings

For the second time in so many days, I find myself quoting Shakespeare.

PHILO
Nay, but this dotage of our general’s
O’erflows the measure. Those his goodly eyes,
That o’er the files and musters of the war
Have glowed like plated Mars, now bend, now turn
The office and devotion of their view
Upon a tawny front. His captain’s heart,
Which in the scuffles of great fights hath burst
The buckles on his breast, reneges all temper
And is become the bellows and the fan
To cool a gypsy’s lust.

Flourish. Enter ANTONY, CLEOPATRA, her ladies, the train, with eunuchs fanning her

PHILO

Look where they come. Take but good note, and you shall see in him
The triple pillar of the world transformed
Into a strumpet’s fool. Behold and see.

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Call your medieval prostitute a "strumpet" and I'm with you. I'm in the moment, sharing a mug of ale in a tavern whilst wearing a cod piece and tights.

Or a moll, doxy, harlot or trollop.

But call her a ho, a hooker, a sex worker or a prostitute and I'm back in the 21st century. Call her a Tom, and I'm in England. A whore, and I'm in America. A "lady of the night", and I'm in straight-laced Victorian England.

Hmm, my dictionary says whore dates back to 1554, and is from a similar Old English word, so it doesn't seem out of place in that kind of culture. It certainly was in use in Mother England well before the US was even a gleam in her eye.

I remember reading somewhere that the word "bawdy basket" was in use in Colonial America, however.

Ho is definitely not very pre-late-20th century, however. And I can't hear that word without thinking of Eddie Murphy on SNL.

You're right - I meant to say "ho" is American. In the UK, we would only use it as a joke. Whore sounds perfectly acceptable for a medieval English setting, although it is little used in the UK now.