#GamerGate

mccardey

Self-Ban
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 10, 2010
Messages
19,308
Reaction score
16,022
Location
Australia.
Sorry, but no.

The problem is, such repudiation is held to varying standards. Some say they do it--repudiate terrorist actions--enough, some say they don't even come close. What's the standard here?

Do "they" = moderate muslims? The standard is that they do repudiate terrorist actions. It's not a varying thing. Moderate muslims repudiate terrorist actions. Other people do as well, of course. Is this just something that happens in multi-cultural Australia?
 
Last edited:

mccardey

Self-Ban
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 10, 2010
Messages
19,308
Reaction score
16,022
Location
Australia.
What you have not heard may or may not exist. That was my point. People still make that accusation of moderate muslims. So *you* may know in that instance.

In this case? Maybe they have, but they haven't made you a witness to it. You don't know. And, okay, neither do I.

Rob - you brought moderate muslims into this, and I don't really know why, or what you know or what you think I know. So - I'm not sure what your point is, so I can't really discuss it.
 

robjvargas

Rob J. Vargas
Banned
Joined
Dec 9, 2011
Messages
6,543
Reaction score
511
It's not up to gamers in general to repudiate the rape threats. It's the little shits involved in GamerGate that need to repudiate it.

True, but there's no obligation to use the same avenue in which those threats were made. If my friend makes a stupid post on Facebook, I'll say so when I see him. Not on Facebook.
 

Xelebes

Delerium ex Ennui
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
Messages
14,205
Reaction score
884
Location
Edmonton, Canada
True, but there's no obligation to use the same avenue in which those threats were made. If my friend makes a stupid post on Facebook, I'll say so when I see him. Not on Facebook.

Cessation of rape threats will be a demonstration of repudiation.
 

robeiae

Touch and go
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 18, 2005
Messages
46,262
Reaction score
9,912
Location
on the Seven Bridges Road
Website
thepondsofhappenstance.com
The standard is that they do. It's not a varying thing. Moderate muslims repudiate terrorist actions.
Every one of them? Publicly? Every time one occurs?

And look, they shouldn't have to imo, shouldn't need to in order to demonstrate that they're not terrorist sympathizers. It's a bullshit standard, imo. And look where it would get you with things like Israel/Palestine. Israel is in the right because everything that is reflective of anti-Semitism isn't repudiated by everyone on the other "side." Constantly.

In this case, as rjb notes, we can't say there has been no repudiation, can we?

But regardless, the initial argument--advanced by Albedo and agreed to by you--didn't depend on repudiation in the least. It was simple: the "side" issuing rape threats should be assumed to be the wrong side. Again, look at Israel-Palestine. That's a horrible means of determining who is right, because even if everyone agrees that rape threats or any other nasty sorts of attacks are wrong, the fundamental issues are still not being addressed.

Personally, I have no clue who is right and who is wrong. By my reading, there seems to be an awful lot of pettiness and more than just two sides. And the threats are certainly way over the line, making the whole thing even uglier.
 

lilyWhite

Love and Excitement
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 13, 2012
Messages
5,357
Reaction score
766
Location
under a pile of mistletoe
No it wouldn't. It would just mean that the side issuing rape threats is not the right side unless and until those threats are repudiated. Because rape threats.

As someone who looks into the hashtag on Twitter from time to time, I have seen many people on the #GamerGate side condemn harassment and threats.

Of course, it begs the question of why there should be any onus on Persons A-Y to prove they don't support harassment because Person Z in their group has harassed others. It's much the same in regards to moderate Muslims being judged based on the extremists in their group.

I can point to plenty of extreme statements made by those against #GamerGate. Would you think there's any onus on opponents of the movement to prove that they don't, say, think gamers are worse than ISIS or advocate violence against men?
 

robeiae

Touch and go
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 18, 2005
Messages
46,262
Reaction score
9,912
Location
on the Seven Bridges Road
Website
thepondsofhappenstance.com
Cessation of rape threats will be a demonstration of repudiation.

People not making the threats--who are the ones supposed to be doing the repudiating--can't stop making the threats, can they (since they are not making them)? Or is there some kind of time-space continuum loop thingy at work here that I'm not aware of?
 

mccardey

Self-Ban
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 10, 2010
Messages
19,308
Reaction score
16,022
Location
Australia.
Would you think there's any onus on opponents of the movement to prove that they don't, say, think gamers are worse than ISIS or advocate violence against men?

Oh, good grief.
 

robjvargas

Rob J. Vargas
Banned
Joined
Dec 9, 2011
Messages
6,543
Reaction score
511
Cessation of rape threats will be a demonstration of repudiation.

The *only* one?

Well, gee then, all those moderate Muslims really *haven't* repudiated terrorism, have they?

Look, I don't buy this. We cannot prevent even our friends from posting stupid, hateful, dangerous, even illegal crap. We can tell them what they are posting is any or all of that.

But we're under no obligation, not legal, ethical, moral, or spiritual, to have witnesses to that conversation. Or to "force" some desired outcome from that conversation, either.
 

EMaree

a demon for tea
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 7, 2009
Messages
4,655
Reaction score
840
Location
Scotland
Website
www.emmamaree.com
I try to be even-handed about these things, but I'm not sure how anyone can be on the side of #GamerGate and still be in the right.

It's a hate campaign against a female developer, bringing something from her personal life and involving it in her career.

They wanted to ruin her career. There's no positive side to this BS.
 

kuwisdelu

Revolutionize the World
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Messages
38,197
Reaction score
4,544
Location
The End of the World
What's clear is that the dark misogynistic underbelly of online gamer culture has crawled out of the woodworks and taken off their masks and reared their ugly heads with furor and aplomb.

At this point, it's not really about a right side and a wrong side.

It's about that classic pig-headed fallacy called "but not all men are rapists/abusers/misogynists".

It's technically "right", but nobody was saying that in the first place.

And for bigots and bureaucrats, being "technically" right is the only kind of right.
 
Last edited:

Amadan

Banned
Joined
Apr 27, 2010
Messages
8,649
Reaction score
1,623
I think bringing Muslims into this might have been ill-considered but it's a fair point - if one troll issues a rape threat, suddenly everyone who happens to be criticizing the same person the troll did is now obligated to publicly denounce rape threats or be assumed to be in favor of them? I mean, I think we can assume anyone behaving like a grown-up on the Internet does not approve of rape threats.

I've been kind of following #gamergate. I think Zoe Quinn is pretty clearly a terrible person, but it should have stayed between her and her ex - one woman having fidelity issues is not some massive indictment of industry corruption, it just means people sleep around - news at 11.
 

Xelebes

Delerium ex Ennui
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
Messages
14,205
Reaction score
884
Location
Edmonton, Canada
My initial exposure to this whole fiasco included a lot of petulant and angry rape fantasies. One stepping forward and actually uttering them directly to Zoe is not an example of a single troll acting on their own accord. Much of what I encountered was an openly traded understanding that Zoe (and Anita, and other women in positions of power) be degraded and taken from the power they have through various means including rape.

Subsequent exposures have done little to ameliorate that.
 

backslashbaby

~~~~*~~~~
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
12,635
Reaction score
1,603
Location
NC
I haven't read a damned thing about any of this, but the first link I clicked on had 4chan on one side, right? Against some woman in the industry whose ex is mad at her? Then there have been rape threats?

Yeah, I'll go out on a limb and say I bet I'm on whatever side 4chan isn't. It's just a feeling I have ;)
 

kuwisdelu

Revolutionize the World
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Messages
38,197
Reaction score
4,544
Location
The End of the World
I haven't read a damned thing about any of this, but the first link I clicked on had 4chan on one side, right? Against some woman in the industry whose ex is mad at her? Then there have been rape threats?

Yeah, I'll go out on a limb and say I bet I'm on whatever side 4chan isn't. It's just a feeling I have ;)

4chan is never on just one side.
 

backslashbaby

~~~~*~~~~
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
12,635
Reaction score
1,603
Location
NC
4chan is never on just one side.

If you can stand to wade through the BS, I'm sure that's true, lol. I don't have the patience for it. I never said I was being completely fair ;)
 

kuwisdelu

Revolutionize the World
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Messages
38,197
Reaction score
4,544
Location
The End of the World
If you can stand to wade through the BS, I'm sure that's true, lol. I don't have the patience for it. I never said I was being completely fair ;)

I used to hate 4chan. Then I started checking /a/ for anime-related news, and now I find it all fascinating.

Just pretend you're an anthropologist or a sociologist.
 

Zoombie

Dragon of the Multiverse
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 24, 2006
Messages
40,775
Reaction score
5,947
Location
Some personalized demiplane
My question is: If this is about game journalism and ethics...where was the same series of death and rape threats for the guys at Gamespot who gave Kane and Lynch 2: Dog Days a good review after their website was plastered with Kane and Lynch 2 ads for months?
 

Myrealana

I aim to misbehave
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 29, 2012
Messages
5,425
Reaction score
1,911
Location
Denver, CO
Website
www.badfoodie.com
After reading Eron Gjoni's ramblings, all I can say for sure is that he needs to suck it up, move on and stop airing his feelings on the internet.
 
Joined
Jun 29, 2008
Messages
11,042
Reaction score
841
Location
Second star on the right and on 'til morning.
Website
atsiko.wordpress.com
Apparently a small chunk of this has involved Anita Sarkeesian and supposedly fake death threats. Does anyone know anything about that aspect?



A friend of mine suggested this "scandal" is constructed of three unreasonably conflated issues:

1. Quinn
2. Actual possible "corruption"(seems a bit strong to me, if possibly still accurate)
3. Hating on feminists for critiquing video game culture. (Sarkeesian fits in here, whatever your opinion of her)


This conflation gives cover to trolls, click-baiters, and actual misogynists/people who are having overly defensive reactions to critique of what they may have considered their private escape/playground.


Two articles making similar arguments:
http://www.slate.com/articles/techn...assment_a_letter_to_a_young_male_gamer.2.html
http://www.modvive.com/2014/08/30/gender-bias-gaming-world-zoe-quinn-controversy/
 
Last edited:

lilyWhite

Love and Excitement
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 13, 2012
Messages
5,357
Reaction score
766
Location
under a pile of mistletoe
I try to be even-handed about these things, but I'm not sure how anyone can be on the side of #GamerGate and still be in the right.

It's a hate campaign against a female developer, bringing something from her personal life and involving it in her career.

They wanted to ruin her career. There's no positive side to this BS.

That would surely explain the criticism towards gaming journalists (who are mostly white males). Or Phil Fish, who has received similar criticism to Quinn regarding doxxing of their information and possible corruption.

The blog post about Quinn sparked discussion, but that in itself wasn't the catalyst for #GamerGate. It was the widespread, indiscriminate deletion of discussions regarding the possible implications of corruption, followed by numerous articles from gaming sites proclaiming the end of "gamers" (which they made into a straight white male strawman) that served as the impetus for #GamerGate (and #NotYourShield).

I've been paying attention to the controversy and the hashtags as they unfolded, out of interest both as a gamer and regarding my views on equality and feminism. The idea that the origin or focus of the movement was ever misogynistic attacks on Quinn simply doesn't match what I've seen from the average supporter of the movement.

Apparently a small chunk of this has involved Anita Sarkeesian and supposedly fake death threats. Does anyone know anything about that aspect?

In response to tweets where Sarkeesian attacked the San Francisco Police Department for their handling of her reports of death threats, someone contacted the SFPD and received a response from an officer saying that they had no record of Sarkeesian making a police report during the time that she had claimed to have done so. Last I had heard of it, Milo Yiannopolous, a pro-#GamerGate Breitbart writer, had contacted the SFPD and heard that they knew that the FBI were involved with her case, though it didn't necessarily mean that she did or didn't report the death threats to the SFPD. I haven't paid much attention to this particular topic past when I first heard of it nor have I seen much discussion of it, so I can't say if more information has emerged.

A friend of mine suggested this "scandal" is constructed of three unreasonably conflated issues:

1. Quinn
2. Actual possible "corruption"(seems a bit strong to me, if possibly still accurate)
3. Hating on feminists for critiquing video game culture. (Sarkeesian fits in here, whatever your opinion of her)

The first two aren't entirely unrelated. Part of the initial controversy was that one of the people involved with Quinn was a gaming journalist, and some believed that her connection had led to her unfairly receiving favourable press. This was before my interest in the controversy and movement peaked, so I'm not knowledgeable on the arguments for and against this belief.

As for the third, I don't know if there was a specific point where that became a major factor, but there's been cases in the past where people have criticized "feminist" slants in gaming journalism—for example, several Kotaku articles and the Polygon review regarding the game Dragon's Crown. I imagine it's just another in a list of grievances towards gaming journalism, valid or otherwise, that are being aired as part of #GamerGate.
 
Joined
Jun 29, 2008
Messages
11,042
Reaction score
841
Location
Second star on the right and on 'til morning.
Website
atsiko.wordpress.com
That would surely explain the criticism towards gaming journalists (who are mostly white males). Or Phil Fish, who has received similar criticism to Quinn regarding doxxing of their information and possible corruption.

The blog post about Quinn sparked discussion, but that in itself wasn't the catalyst for #GamerGate. It was the widespread, indiscriminate deletion of discussions regarding the possible implications of corruption, followed by numerous articles from gaming sites proclaiming the end of "gamers" (which they made into a straight white male strawman) that served as the impetus for #GamerGate (and #NotYourShield).

I've been paying attention to the controversy and the hashtags as they unfolded, out of interest both as a gamer and regarding my views on equality and feminism. The idea that the origin or focus of the movement was ever misogynistic attacks on Quinn simply doesn't match what I've seen from the average supporter of the movement.



In response to tweets where Sarkeesian attacked the San Francisco Police Department for their handling of her reports of death threats, someone contacted the SFPD and received a response from an officer saying that they had no record of Sarkeesian making a police report during the time that she had claimed to have done so. Last I had heard of it, Milo Yiannopolous, a pro-#GamerGate Breitbart writer, had contacted the SFPD and heard that they knew that the FBI were involved with her case, though it didn't necessarily mean that she did or didn't report the death threats to the SFPD. I haven't paid much attention to this particular topic past when I first heard of it nor have I seen much discussion of it, so I can't say if more information has emerged.



The first two aren't entirely unrelated. Part of the initial controversy was that one of the people involved with Quinn was a gaming journalist, and some believed that her connection had led to her unfairly receiving favourable press. This was before my interest in the controversy and movement peaked, so I'm not knowledgeable on the arguments for and against this belief.

As for the third, I don't know if there was a specific point where that became a major factor, but there's been cases in the past where people have criticized "feminist" slants in gaming journalism—for example, several Kotaku articles and the Polygon review regarding the game Dragon's Crown. I imagine it's just another in a list of grievances towards gaming journalism, valid or otherwise, that are being aired as part of #GamerGate.


It's my understanding that Quinn was the indirect cause of the explosion, because the people who were targeting her with a misogynistic or at least sexist motivation triggered the "censorship". Most of the censorship apparently involved moderated forums and sites who decided, as private entities and based on previously-established moderation policies, to not allow unfettered trashing of Zoe Quinn. The wider corruption argument, at least at first, shows evidence of being a cover for the harassment of Quinn. The gaming media then got pissed off at the growth of attacks on them and posted the gamers are over articles.

Quinn was then further attacked by people making silly claims that she had somehow orchestrated the "censorship" and response from the gaming media. About then, the Patreon issue came to light, one of the few possibly legitimate reasons for criticism of gaming journalism.



I've looked into Milo, and honestly, I'm not about to take his words or any conclusion he comes to as useful truth about Sarkeesian. It seems to be true that at least part of the SFPD issue was not 100% as Sarkeesian describes it, but several people came forward after Milo with evidence that she did indeed report real death threats and the issue is possibly being handled by the FBI, thus the lack of major involvement from SFPD.



I suppose your third point makes sense, but it seems a bit irresponsible on the part of #Gamergate rs to conflate these three issues in the way that they have...