Ok. Um... wow.

J.S.F. · Oct 14, 2014

aruna said:
As for Pope Francis: I love him. And I can name-drop that I know someone who knew him in Argentina -- a priest who was in prison, and the future Pope helped get him out.

--

Well, as Church Lady says, "isn't that special." Yes, sarcasm, and not directed at you, Aruna, but at the fact that the Pope decided to help a fellow priest--one of his own, so to speak--get out of jail. How nice. I wonder how many others the Church has helped out of jail.

Sorry, but I have a huge problem with a person who's taken a vow of celibacy deciding on who can have sex before marriage and who can't, who's fit to be in the Church fold due to their orientation and who isn't, and who really hasn't changed the hierarchical rule of the institution that chose him.

Granted, he hasn't been in power all that long and has said a number of nice things, but how much has been translated into action? How has he reached out to the LGBT community or other religious communities--and meant it? Actions would be nice, not just words...and I have the feeling that the entrenched Cardinals and Monsignors and others who hold key positions aren't so open to change. Time will tell...

aruna · Oct 14, 2014

I am not talking about the church, or its policies. The man himself, or who he is; doing his best to be what a true Christian is, his ability to inspire and uplift and change hearts. A change of policy does not happen ovenight, and I am not referring to that.

The priest-friend I speak of is someone who worked tirelsessly in the slums of Buenos Aires for the poor, was thrown into prison and tortured. He did work that would leave the rest of us chatterers stuttering. I am glad he was rescued. He now lives in Germany and has helped thousands of people.

Please note: I am not a Catholic.

J.S.F. · Oct 14, 2014

aruna said:
I am not talking about the church, or its policies. The man himself, or who he is; doing his best to be what a true Christian is, his ability to inspire and uplift and change hearts. A change of policy does not happen ovenight, and I am not referring to that.

---ME. Fair enough. He may very well be the decent person you and others think he is. However you may think of him, though, he is now the leader of richest, most powerful religious institution on the face of this Earth and as such, will be looked upon to do more than mouth platitudes. To his credit, it looks as though he's trying although how much he'll accomplish remains to be seen.

The priest-friend I speak of is someone who worked tirelsessly in the slums of Buenos Aires for the poor, was thrown into prison and tortured. He did work that would leave the rest of us chatterers stuttering. I am glad he was rescued. He now lives in Germany and has helped thousands of people.

--ME. I'll take your word for it.

Please note: I am not a Catholic.

---

See above, please. Also please note: I am not a Christian.

robjvargas · Oct 14, 2014

Anyone who expects a 1000+ year-old institution to do a one-eighty on matters of faith and doctrine is setting themselves up for anger and disappointment.

It's legitimate to wait for a real change in doctrine before celebrating change. But it was NEVER going to happen overnight.

robeiae · Oct 14, 2014

William Haskins said:
touché

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S22QS4PUdrw

aruna · Oct 14, 2014

J.S.F. said:
---

See above, please. Also please note: I am not a Christian.

Neither am I.

William Haskins · Oct 14, 2014

robjvargas said:
Anyone who expects a 1000+ year-old institution to do a one-eighty on matters of faith and doctrine is setting themselves up for anger and disappointment.

It's legitimate to wait for a real change in doctrine before celebrating change. But it was NEVER going to happen overnight.

i would think a god who created a universe in 6 days could get his shit together on an ethical call on a minor planet in a reasonable amount of time.

Teinz · Oct 14, 2014

Ahhh, the Glorious Light of Impending Change.

After that awaits the Inevitable Dreary Dusk of Disapointment...

robjvargas · Oct 14, 2014

William Haskins said:
i would think a god who created a universe in 6 days could get his shit together on an ethical call on a minor planet in a reasonable amount of time.

That does not mean that overnight is reasonable. Nor (necessarily) the lifetime of one pope.

backslashbaby · Oct 14, 2014

William Haskins said:
i would think a god who created a universe in 6 days could get his shit together on an ethical call on a minor planet in a reasonable amount of time.

God does everything best. Duh!

If the Pope and other top Catholics were encouraged to just hang out with people like Jesus did in the Bible, I'd think they'd change their minds. This Pope is the best chance along that line of thought, imho.

OTOH, Catholicism is so much about 'the rules' that it's hard to change with the times compared to many other religions, I think (I like creative pastors who write their own stuff, myself). But I would leave one religion for another pretty easily, so my advice would be to just not be Catholic if their rules don't feel right. I know not everyone feels that way, though!

Dennis E. Taylor · Oct 14, 2014

backslashbaby said:
OTOH, Catholicism is so much about 'the rules' that it's hard to change with the times compared to many other religions, I think

I abandoned Catholicism in my youth and joined a protestant (Baptist, specifically) church. My experience of the change could best be summed up as "Same shit, different pile."

CassandraW · Oct 14, 2014

backslashbaby said:
If the Pope and other top Catholics were encouraged to just hang out with people like Jesus did in the Bible, I'd think they'd change their minds. This Pope is the best chance along that line of thought, imho.

One of the things I love about this Pope is that he's refused all the grand trappings of his predecessors and does get out there and mingle with people. I do think he's a good man. He's working with a monolith of an ancient institution, and they aren't so easy to renovate. But I'd wave a hammer next to him anytime.

backslashbaby said:
OTOH, Catholicism is so much about 'the rules' that it's hard to change with the times compared to many other religions, I think (I like creative pastors who write their own stuff, myself). But I would leave one religion for another pretty easily, so my advice would be to just not be Catholic if their rules don't feel right. I know not everyone feels that way, though!

If you've had a strict, rules-bound religious upbringing, it might sometimes be easier to reject organized religion altogether than to embrace another.

I have a joke with an old friend that we can always spot out the former Catholics after half an hour of conversation -- some whiff of communal wafer clings forever.

I was only half kidding. I'm now an agnostic, and have been since I was 12. But nonetheless I know my early Catholic upbringing is still there at the roots of the person I am today.

Vince524 · Oct 14, 2014

I'm thinking though of what this might mean to people who were brought up or being brought up in a house that's catholic and there's say a son or daughter who is gay. You have parents that struggled because the did love their child, but believed because it's what was taught, that homosexuality is a sin and by accepting it, their child was going to hell. It seems silly for those who reject it. Those here who are atheists chalk it up to nonsense, but these words can make a huge difference the lives of people who it matters to.

It won't help the son or daughter who have parents that would throw them out because they're gay. It's not a complete solution. But it's a start. And depending on where you're standing, it's huge.

Vince524 · Oct 14, 2014

William Haskins said:
i would think a god who created a universe in 6 days could get his shit together on an ethical call on a minor planet in a reasonable amount of time.

The Church and the Pope aren't God. They represent an organized belief in one. In the end, they're people who have believed the same thing for generations. Beliefs that are in many ways essential to their core. This is challenging those beliefs.

I was born and raised catholic, but I no longer consider myself one. I do still believe in God and Christ. This isn't enough for me to come back to the church, but it narrows that gap.

And I think it's a huge risk for this Pope.

c.e.lawson · Oct 14, 2014

William Haskins said:
i would think a god who created a universe in 6 days could get his shit together on an ethical call on a minor planet in a reasonable amount of time.

As Pope Pius XII stated in his Encyclical Divino Afflante Spiritu in 1943:

35. What is the literal sense of a passage is not always as obvious in the speeches and writings of the ancient authors of the East, as it is in the works of our own time. For what they wished to express is not to be determined by the rules of grammar and philology alone, nor solely by the context; the interpreter must, as it were, go back wholly in spirit to those remote centuries of the East and with the aid of history, archaeology, ethnology, and other sciences, accurately determine what modes of writing, so to speak, the authors of that ancient period would be likely to use, and in fact did use.

William Haskins · Oct 14, 2014

oh goodness.

to be clear, i don't think god preemptively created the earth and sun so as to calibrate a 24-hour day before beginning his real work on the rest of the universe with a rolex on his wrist.

i don't believe in god, so i'm probably not a useful part of this thread except to say that no institution has a right to practice bigotry, even one with a supposedly benevolent sky-god.

thus, i don't award points for a softening of bigotry couched as progressivism.

Vince524 · Oct 14, 2014

William Haskins said:
oh goodness.

to be clear, i don't think god preemptively created the earth and sun so as to calibrate a 24-hour day before beginning his real work on the rest of the universe with a rolex on his wrist.

i don't believe in god, so i'm probably not a useful part of this thread except to say that no institution has a right to practice bigotry, even one with a supposedly benevolent sky-god.

thus, i don't award points for a softening of bigotry couched as progressivism.

On the one hand, I understand what you're saying. I appreciate your thoughts and while I agree this isn't enough, it's a huge start.

On the other hand, I smite you. No reason, just thought it would be fun.

CassandraW · Oct 14, 2014

Revelation God is gonna smack you upside the head, William.

Diana Hignutt · Oct 14, 2014

Vince524 said:
The Church and the Pope aren't God. They represent an organized belief in one. In the end, they're people who have believed the same thing for generations.

Wait, you just said the Church was a person, and the Pope has believed the same thing for generations...is that really what you wanted to say?

c.e.lawson · Oct 14, 2014

William Haskins said:
oh goodness.

to be clear, i don't think god preemptively created the earth and sun so as to calibrate a 24-hour day before beginning his real work on the rest of the universe with a rolex on his wrist.

i don't believe in god, so i'm probably not a useful part of this thread except to say that no institution has a right to practice bigotry, even one with a supposedly benevolent sky-god.

thus, i don't award points for a softening of bigotry couched as progressivism.

There are lots of misconceptions about Catholicism in general, and a few in this thread already. I just thought I'd clear up one of them for people who think Catholics take a solely literal approach to the bible.

You carry a lot of weight around here, William. (Even if you're simply being clever/funny. And yes, I knew you were being that.

)

CassandraW · Oct 14, 2014

c.e.lawson said:
You carry a lot of weight around here, William.

William bears the weight of AW on his weary shoulders.

Be very suspicious if he offers to do any errands for you. He's been waiting for millennia to saddle someone else with the burden.

William Haskins · Oct 14, 2014

c.e.lawson said:
You carry a lot of weight around here, William.

pfft.

and frankly, if i carry enough weight that i can convince otherwise devout believers into thinking god created the universe in accordance with his dilbert page-a-day calendar, they deserve whatever metaphysical fate they get.

aruna · Oct 14, 2014

I also don't believe in the god William doesn't believe in. So there!

rugcat · Oct 14, 2014

William Haskins said:
pfft.

and frankly, if i carry enough weight that i can convince otherwise devout believers into thinking god created the universe in accordance with his dilbert page-a-day calendar, they deserve whatever metaphysical fate they get.

I thought she was referring to your eating habits.

William Haskins · Oct 14, 2014

alerted for calling me fat.

Ok. Um... wow.

Red fish, blue fish...

On a wing and a prayer

Red fish, blue fish...

Touch and go

On a wing and a prayer

poet

Back at it again.

~~~~*~~~~

Get it off! It burns!

Are you gonna finish that bacon?

Are you gonna finish that bacon?

poet

Are you gonna finish that bacon?

Very Tired

poet

On a wing and a prayer

Lost in the Fog

poet

*