What's worse than being a drug user? Being an atheist drug user...

Hi -- I'm not familiar with the recovery center that Hazle was required to attend. However, I have been going to NA meetings for 25 years in a lot of places both here in the US and in Canada -- and this issue comes up a lot in the meetings. The NA literature does say that it's a 'spiritual, not religious' program -- but many people who are members are atheist (or not of the religions that only worship Jehovah).

If you go to a few meetings, you will hear them talk about how they came to terms with the language that talks about God or a higher power. One of my dearest friends (who spoke at thousands of meetings all over the world, including in California) had a nickname for his concept of 'higher power' -- but essentially, he said, all you gotta do is have a higher power, and know that it isn't you.

Other people I have known (and this is a very common story that is repeated every single time the topic comes up) have used a doorknob for their higher power. Or the group.

What I'm saying is that even in a recovery center that uses NA literature and meetings as part of their treatment program, there will be alternatives for even the most adamant atheist.

Personally, I had an issue with the concept of a 'higher power'. My religious beliefs (as a pagan) include the belief that I am god. I won't go into a lot of theological explanation, but it took me quite a while -- maybe three full years of attending NA meetings every day?-- to come to understand why it was important to turn my will and my life over to the care of a higher power in order to begin the process of recovery.

So I understand Hazle's issue with the concept. I also understand that willingness is the first step. And those steps can save your life.

Karen Junker said:

Personally, I had an issue with the concept of a 'higher power'. My religious beliefs (as a pagan) include the belief that I am god. I won't go into a lot of theological explanation, but it took me quite a while -- maybe three full years of attending NA meetings every day?-- to come to understand why it was important to turn my will and my life over to the care of a higher power in order to begin the process of recovery.

Click to expand...

But I think this is in many ways the crux of the problem. The idea that a person is must accept that they are helpless to control one's own addiction without appealing to a "higher power" may well work for some people. But not all people are the same, or will benefit from the same type of programs or methodology.

For the state to say, "only programs that include an appeal to a higher power are acceptable if you wish to stay out of jail" is deeply wrong headed.

We have had AW members reference AA programs in previous threads, not in glowing terms. I believe Ben Bradley is one (My apologies if I'm mis-remembering.)

rugcat said:

(My apologies if I'm mis-remembering.)

Click to expand...

I'm trying to figure out if the racing footsteps I'm hearing is coming from your memory bank. . .

Especially since while imprisoned, you have nowhere to escape from the proselytizing.

Yeah, I agree with all of you -- but I'm pretty sure (if I remember correctly) that 12 step type programs have the highest success rate (tiny as that may be). Of course my knowledge of the success data is from the 80s when I was a caseworker who worked with welfare clients who had drug or alcohol problems.

There are non-religion based programs in California, but I'm pretty sure they're not in the price range that most people can afford. I'm not sure in this case if the treatment is paid by the individual or if there is some kind of insurance plan coverage or even a government funding deal.

I think the 'turning over your will' thing goes along with the disease model of addiction. The idea being that there is no moral failure on the part of the addict if it's a disease, also that it's out of their control, so therefore they can't control their recovery alone. There are a few celebrities who have publicly quit drinking or drugs -- and we never know if they went to a 12-step program or not, because part of the deal is anonymity (that includes not announcing you are a member of one in public). But I think it gives some people the impression that it's easier than it really is.

ETA: Maybe the addict/alcoholic isn't the best judge of what will work -- I can't tell you how many times I've heard the expression "our own best thinking got us here". There is some truth to that.

I'd be passive-aggressive too if the government was forcing me on threat of prison to pretend that I believed in God.

Karen Junker said:

... all you gotta do is have a higher power, and know that it isn't you...

Click to expand...

But... as an atheist myself, there is no higher power outside of myself.

And those 12 Step programs have a failure rate of 90-95%. Some Higher Power.

I hear you. I've been in this exact situation and what worked for me (to keep me out of jail) is to go along with whatever the court ordered and act as if I was happy about it. Not everyone can or is willing to do that and I'm not saying they should.

Parametric said:

I'd be passive-aggressive too if the government was forcing me on threat of prison to pretend that I believed in God.

Click to expand...

No one, not even NA, is doing that. The program teaches you that relying solely on yourself has failed. What's left is to find the answer outside one's self.

If everything you don't object to has failed, all that's left is what you consider to be offensive.

Yeah, the failure rate for 12 step programs may be 95%, but for other methods it's even higher. There is a huge recidivism rate.

Shadow_Ferret said:

But... as an atheist myself, there is no higher power outside of myself.

Click to expand...

Well, there is the Sun out there. And then there is that massive pulsar in M82 with the power of 10 million suns.

I want to know why he's not been allowed to transfer to a secular program though.

If you tell me I can't do something without a higher power and I don't believe in a higher power, you're telling me I can't do it. Period.

Legal issues aside.

I go to Alanon. I've been to NA and AA meetings. Believing in God or a god is not a requirement. Many atheists utilize this program without any issue.

Nobody is forcing someone to "pretend to believe in God" or any higher power.

I've never had issues with prosthelytizing. Ever. Believers have always been accepting of me (an agnostic) and atheists. Also some have been VERY helpful in helping non-believers try to define what "a higher power" means to them. One guy considers it "the laws of the universe," another "nature," another "statistics." It's the notion that you cannot change what's happened in the past, that you are powerless to your addiction. It's the idea that willpower alone simply doesn't work (or people would simply stop, right?). And you give yourself over to that idea. Maybe it's not "God," but it's "plain ole brain chemistry." (Again, been going for a long time to these meetings and have seen many people reconcile this step in a meaningful way.)

Many sessions have been dedicated to uncovering what the higher power means to you. YOU PERSONALLY. And yes, people struggle with this. Believers struggle with this. Non-believers struggle with this. This is what the group is there for. Not just making the steps work for you, but theorizing and philosophizing what it all MEANS to each individual member. It's not a collective. It's support.

ALL OF THAT SAID . . .

I never contemplated what it might mean (constitutionally) for a person to be forced to get treatment through a typical 12-step program. And while atheists and agnostics might be able to make meaning of the steps, that doesn't mean everyone will be self-aware enough or confident enough to claim their own "turf" in these programs, so to say. To speak up. To say, "Hey, I'm not religious. Help me figure this out."

And, as much as the 12-step program has worked for me in Alanon, it is based in spirituality, IMHO and can come across as very Christian-ish, especially when most people in the group are probably going to be Christian (with 70% of the general population identifying as Christian).

It's food for thought. And I cannot blame a man for demanding a non-secular program, even if it's the same 12-step program stripped of religious verbage. I'm interested in seeing where this goes.

RedRajah said:

I want to know why he's not been allowed to transfer to a secular program though.

Click to expand...

Apparently, this is the only state-approved facility in the county.

I read a bit more here:

That’s apparently not guaranteed, despite the state Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation’s efforts to have its parole agents respect parolees’ diverse religious views. In November 2008, the department ordered agents to refer paroled drug and alcohol offenders to nonreligious treatment programs if they objected to religiously based 12-step regimens. The order followed a federal appeals court ruling that said Hawaii had violated another parolee’s rights by ordering him to take part in Alcoholics Anonymous.

But in an August 2013 ruling in Hazle’s case, the same federal court quoted WestCare, a contractor for the department in Shasta County and several Central California counties, as saying it continues to refer all parolees to 12-step residential programs. WestCare said it never received the corrections department’s order and doesn’t understand the term “alternative non-religious program.”

Click to expand...

Karen Junker said:

Yeah, the failure rate for 12 step programs may be 95%, but for other methods it's even higher. There is a huge recidivism rate.

Click to expand...

What I was reading said that 5% will succeed simply on their own because they're tired of dying, so a 95% failure rate could be looked on as a 0% success rate (since that 5% probably found the cure on their own).

So no, as I understand it, other methods are not worse than the 12 Step Program. Maybe the same, but not worse.

Michael Wolfe said:

You don't think Shadow Ferret could defeat the sun?

Click to expand...

Depends. Does the Sun wear a scowl?

Lyv - no one is telling you that you can't do it. What they're suggesting is that you may need to change your ways of thinking.

I've seen people attempt to start 12-step groups for atheists and pagans -- the thing is, it takes dedication to sit in a room, week after week, and hope someone else shows up. Also, since these alternative type groups are not part of any larger organization, it's hard for people to find out about them, since they are not listed anywhere (except where each group's organizer does list them --but they can't be listed in the official AA or NA programs or websites).

Then there's the problem of how to work the steps without a higher power reference -- you'd have to throw out the entire idea and go back to the will or power of the individual -- and that pretty much means there's a good chance they'll go back to using. Because most addict/alcoholics have tried more than once to quit and it didn't work.

I know people who have stayed clean for years without believing in god or working the steps, just by attending meetings and engaging in the recovery community. What I finally did was realize that when I say the word 'god' in a meeting, it means something to me that it may not mean to anyone else -- but I accepted that it was helpful to me, even if other people mean something else by that word.

It's really hard to give up one's will.

There is a bunch of stuff I hate about 12 step programs and I would be happy to complain about them to you any time if you are interested -- but for me and a lot of people like me, it meant life, not death. It's a very uplifting experience to walk into a room full of people who want to help you stay alive, even if you have to learn how to speak their language.

CrastersBabies said:

I never contemplated what it might mean (constitutionally) for a person to be forced to get treatment through a typical 12-step program. And while atheists and agnostics might be able to make meaning of the steps, that doesn't mean everyone will be self-aware enough or confident enough to claim their own "turf" in these programs, so to say. To speak up. To say, "Hey, I'm not religious. Help me figure this out."

Click to expand...

Or willing to risk prison time (see OP) or other various punishments.

Karen, you really do have it. Turnover for many 12-step programs is high. You're lucky to get 4-5 coming back on a regular basis--so to try and make a "pagan only" group or an "atheist group" is pretty futile, imho. And, honestly? These are people who have had the s*** kicked out of them by life. I imagine the last thing anyone wants to do is get all up in someone's face about God or what they believe/do not believe. The idea here is support. Not conversion. You have each other there to help you figure it all out.

I've never heard someone stand up and say, "Hi, my name is Bob. I'm a drug addict. I hope you don't mind if I try to convert you all to Jesus today." It's about the individual's experience and what God (or Buddha or Allah or Cthulu) means to them.

Again, I can see why this is irksome to someone, though, especially if they have no idea how 12-step programs work. They're mentally/emotionally vulnerable, scared, fed-up, and they're not thinking, "I'm going to make this program work for ME," but rather, "I didn't sign up for this God stuff." I totally see that perspective.

Also, I've worked in jails and prisons. 95% of ALL PROGRAMS are religious-based. And very few are non-Christian. (I'm not sure about yoga--some people might consider that a spiritual connection of some kind, but I'm kind of putting that into the other 5% here.)

For the gigantic lefty democrat I am, I gotta give credit to Christians in jails and prisons because they make up the majority of volunteers. And they bust ass in these facilities. So, until the left decides to get busy volunteering with the underserved on a regular basis, we're going to get religious-heavy inmate programs. Hands-down, Christians lead the way in volunteering in these places.

Shadow_Ferret said:

But... as an atheist myself, there is no higher power outside of myself.

Click to expand...

Really? OK, then, jump to 50,000 feet altitude in one hop.

Can't? *Something* is stopping you. Is it you?

I realize that sounds flippant. But that really is the point of 12-step. Deciding that you are all that's needed has already failed.

When you have eliminated all other possibilities, whatever remains, no matter how impossible or offensive, must be the answer.

robjvargas said:

No one, not even NA, is doing that. The program teaches you that relying solely on yourself has failed. What's left is to find the answer outside one's self.

If everything you don't object to has failed, all that's left is what you consider to be offensive.

Click to expand...

Is this true of all addicts? They've been relying solely on themselves?

I don't have a lot of experience with it, but I've certainly met addicts who seemed willing to depend on other people - willing to blame others for all their failings, willing to take absolutely no responsibility for their behaviour.

Is it generally accepted that addicts are overly self-reliant?