What's worse than being a drug user? Being an atheist drug user...

Karen Junker said:

I agree -- I've only been to a few AA meetings and there is much more insistence on the spiritual or god thing in their meetings.

Lyx, I forgot to mention, I do know a few people who say they actually pray to a doorknob (in a manner of speaking -- they talk to it, I'm not sure how much of it is like most people's concept of prayer, but in my view, if you talk to something and ask for its help, it's a form of supplication or prayer). So you could totally use a pumpkin cheesecake -- and like most gods, it probably won't say anything back to you.

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Well, it is a heavenly pumpkin cheesecake, but, it won't remove my character flaws. Even if I ask nicely.

I wasn't the person you addressed, but you asked:

I really didn't realize that atheists don't believe that anything is stronger than themselves. Is that really true?

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so as an atheist, I'll give my answer. No, that is not true. Atheists lack belief in deities. That's it. That is the only thing you can safely assume when you learn someone is an atheist. Anything else is specific to the person. For example, I believe an elephant is stronger than I am. My husband is physically stronger than I am. I don't believe in any deities.

I have a theory that all theists, when they pray, they are really having a conversation with their subconscious mind and that it will result in subtle changes in their thinking and actions that make it more likely to achieve the result they ask for. I think that's from The Power of Positive Thinking which I read as a very young child (my grandmother who was a witch had a copy).

I think the thing is that when you take God out of the equation, there is no tiering of powers. An elephant might be physically stronger than me, gravity might be keeping things stuck on the planet, the sun's a giant nuclear reactor and our galaxy is inexorably moving towards Andromeda in a move that will culminate in an act of galactic cannibalism, but these are all forces that are going on at the same time. Sometimes they act against each other and sometimes they complement each other, and some forces are stronger than others. But there is ultimately no "higher" power, because naming a "higher" power is a value judgement, which is a silly thing to do in a material universe.

And, looking at any forces that may be stronger than you, which one will be able to reach inside you and change you into a better person because you cannot change yourself? From a long list you can come up with, forces that we would consider very strong, like the sun, or gravity, or whatever, well, by doing that, you're ascribing that thing godlike powers. Which you do not think they have (because you believe in a material universe, not dualism).

I suppose the only somewhat secular idea that could entreat to change you that might be like a "higher power" is luck, and, well, putting yourself into the hands of luck to change you sounds like an absolutely horrible idea, and still doesn't really work with people who do not believe in it and it still doesn't jive with a strictly material universe (and far more people disbelieve in luck than they do disbelieve in God).

I think when you take someone's advice, you defer to them in a way, so in that sense, they become (for the moment) higher in a way. Because you wouldn't ask them or trust their advice is sound if you didn't think it was better than your own ideas (so a little value judgment).

Which is of course moot if you are in court ordered drug treatment which you don't want or think you need, etc. Voluntarily entering treatment is a form of submission to an authority figure, in my mind.

So are you saying that people should think of the 12 steps program as their higher power, because they are taking the advice of the 12 steps program, or is that too meta?

That wasn't what I was saying especially, but I have heard many people who call the 12 steps their higher power. Or the program, whatever. There's quite a bit of literature written by addicts and alcoholics and people can often find something that they resonate with.

The publicly funded recovery programs' strict adherence to 12 step programs would be less baffling if there was any evidence that they actually worked (they have between a 5-10% success rate at achieving lasting sobriety) in the majority of cases, or were at least more effective than secular programs, but no such evidence exists.

http://www.npr.org/2014/03/23/291405829/with-sobering-science-doctor-debunks-12-step-recovery

http://www.psmag.com/navigation/boo...lcoholics-anonymous-time-admit-problem-74268/

The best that can be said for it is that it's cheap, and it might work for some problem drinkers. Hardly a reason to deny convicted drug offenders access to other treatment programs if they desire them.

Hapax Legomenon said:

I think the thing is that when you take God out of the equation, there is no tiering of powers. An elephant might be physically stronger than me, gravity might be keeping things stuck on the planet, the sun's a giant nuclear reactor and our galaxy is inexorably moving towards Andromeda in a move that will culminate in an act of galactic cannibalism, but these are all forces that are going on at the same time. Sometimes they act against each other and sometimes they complement each other, and some forces are stronger than others. But there is ultimately no "higher" power, because naming a "higher" power is a value judgement, which is a silly thing to do in a material universe.

And, looking at any forces that may be stronger than you, which one will be able to reach inside you and change you into a better person because you cannot change yourself? From a long list you can come up with, forces that we would consider very strong, like the sun, or gravity, or whatever, well, by doing that, you're ascribing that thing godlike powers. Which you do not think they have (because you believe in a material universe, not dualism).

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I agree with this. Also, to me, a higher power implies something that I cede authority to. But ultimately, I either have power over how I interact with my environment, or else I have no power.

There are a lot of forces out there that are arguably more powerful than me. For example, the sun's rays are capable of damaging my skin and causing me to develop skin cancer. But this doesn't mean that I cede authority to the sun to do this to me. I take care of myself by trying to moderate my sun exposure and wear sunscreen if I'm going to be out in the sun for a while. This doesn't mean the sun won't be able to hurt me, but I'm not helpless.

On the other hand, there are situations where nature might get me in a totally unexpected way, like if lightning strikes my house and starts it on fire. But that's a random event. It's not lightning having power over me.

Not for the actual OP debate, because I firmly believe in separation of church and state (and even separation from various philosophies), but is there a philosophical 'higher power' any atheists here could imagine?

Like higher wisdom, meaning wise advice that has worked for a bunch of people? Or trust in folks who have been there, done that, maybe? Or just trusting the program, yeah (as the 'higher power', I mean).

I don't know; I find, say, yoga very 'spiritual' without being interested in the actual religious parts. It's a neurological mind-body kind of thing that feels all woo-woo, but in a scientific way to me My own religion feels actually spiritual to me, in a more religious way. I'm actually not OK with worshiping gods I don't know crap about, so I 'should' not be OK with certain yoga classes. I'm easy-going on things like that, though, whereas I can see where many atheists are not the least bit OK with the idea of spirituality or any woo-woo at all.

But it could be philosophy instead is my point. Or wise elders, you know? Wisdom is still OK, no? I do think the point is that you have to be open to other advice in AA, and it's most easily done by putting your own current inclinations on a shelf somewhere, at least temporarily. But if you called it 'The Wisdom', that's starts sounding as woo-woo as anything else

If folks can't trust advice unless it's their own, though (theoretically), that won't work for AA, imho.

As an atheist, no there is no such thing as a higher power. It is a farcical concept to me. It is myself, and my loved ones, against the world no matter how much the world is loathe to bear me. Asking me to put myself to the whim of a higher power so that he may lift me out is just as much as a farcical concept.

It just dawned on me how my sense of privilege (as a theist, albeit a minority theist) has blinded me to the insensitivity of my own attitudes and treatment of atheists. I have always had the idea that as the majority belief system (in a very general sense) it is the neutral or default belief system and that everyone else pretty much adapts. I feel really awful -- but I hope to learn more about how my assumptions have had an impact on the atheists I come into contact with and maybe I can put some strategies into place so that doesn't happen so often, or at all.

Karen Junker said:

It just dawned on me how my sense of privilege (as a theist, albeit a minority theist) has blinded me to the insensitivity of my own attitudes and treatment of atheists. I have always had the idea that as the majority belief system (in a very general sense) it is the neutral or default belief system and that everyone else pretty much adapts. I feel really awful -- but I hope to learn more about how my assumptions have had an impact on the atheists I come into contact with and maybe I can put some strategies into place so that doesn't happen so often, or at all.

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I don't think you need to feel awful at all. But I do think that believers sometimes make assumptions. For me, I think one of the biggest assumptions is that whether people personally believe in something or not, everyone will regard certain things (like the prayer or the idea of a higher power) as inherently good. But that's not always the case.

For example, I have strong personal problems with the idea of prayer. I respect that a lot of people find it comforting, but for me, it's the opposite. So it bothers me when someone tells me that they'll pray for me.

As such, any program that encourages me to communicate with a higher power would make me really uncomfortable. Even communicating with something inanimate, like a doorknob, would bother me, I think.

It's not just that I don't believe--I'm agnostic, so strictly speaking, I don't feel like I know either way. But the thought of a higher power, and communicating with that power, is upsetting to me.

I have to admit I pretty much grit my teeth though any public prayer kind of thing.

There's a ton of other stuff that bothers me in 12 step meetings - for example when some people go into great detail about what drugs they used and how they used them. Other people think that's a good way to establish common ground. It creeps me out. In spite of this, I kept going for a really long time, because I wasn't aware of any other options I was willing to try.

But there's discomfort which can be transformative and there's just plain torture.

Dion Fortune (a magician) wrote a bunch of books and I'm pretty sure I got the idea of a higher self from her writing. The idea being that you have a part of your subconscious mind you can access that will have better judgment or more lofty ideals or whatever, because it's the part of your mind that's not distracted by mundane stuff (she may also have said 'base' stuff -- she was likely mainly a Christian, even though she did magic). So I think if a person could strip away the religiosity of that idea, there might be something like that -- that might be enough to quiet the compulsion to use substances. But again, it might seem too much like meditation or some other spiritual practice.

CrastersBabies said:

I go to Alanon. I've been to NA and AA meetings. Believing in God or a god is not a requirement. Many atheists utilize this program without any issue.

Nobody is forcing someone to "pretend to believe in God" or any higher power.

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I heard of someone in Melbourne whose higher power was the Number 27 tram because it could get past Young & Jackson's (an iconic Melbourne pub) and he couldn't.

robjvargas said:

Really? OK, then, jump to 50,000 feet altitude in one hop.

Can't? *Something* is stopping you. Is it you?

I realize that sounds flippant. But that really is the point of 12-step. Deciding that you are all that's needed has already failed.

When you have eliminated all other possibilities, whatever remains, no matter how impossible or offensive, must be the answer.

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And, if you do succeed in beating an addiction...it's all you. You. That's what's empowering about it. Past failure does not equal eternal failure. It's about turning personal failure into personal success. If we're going to credit some higher power with helping then that higher power also must answer for making one an addict, so I for one don't trust them. Even, as a non-atheist these programs rub me the wrong way. Ask anyone who has quit smoking...did God do it or did they? They did. They finally found a way to overcome their past failures...and no one did it but them.

Also,I accept your apologies for misquoting the atheist Sherlock Holmes. Unlike his author, he had no truck with the supernatural whatsoever.

The "higher power" thing only means, really, that something else can accomplish what one cannot do alone. It doesn't have to have anything to do with religion or spirituality. I can't push my stalled car up a hill, but six of us together might.

There are plenty of people who overload that concept with God or The Law or whatever else. That interpretation, understandably, sours the 12-step experience for a lot of people. It's often well-intentioned but usually wrong-headed. That's a shame.

But the same thing happens in any religion, or club, or sports team, or what have you. AA never claimed to be The Solution, or to work all the time. All they ever said was that they worked for a lot of people where nothing else had.

As far as I know, AA never asked to be the courts' go-to parole option. They sign meeting sheets on request, but it wasn't their idea.

But it's true that the face of an organisation is the one that greets you. So I get that many people have no use for AA because of their own experiences - and I would feel the same in their shoes. But in my shoes, I feel quite differently. As it's designed, it isn't evil, it's not a brainwashing organisation, and it's not religious.

It's definitely not for everyone. And it doesn't always work. But it's saved a hell of a lot of of lives once thought to be lost.

eta: And it was more successful than anything else available at the time. It was especially intended for people who'd exhausted every option and failed -- thought to be hopeless. It wasn't created for people who have a bit of an issue, and I always thought too many people were shoved into it for the wrong reasons.

If it's been superseded by other more effective methods, then fantastic.

Karen Junker said:

I really didn't realize that atheists don't believe that anything is stronger than themselves. Is that really true?

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I think you're conflating "something stronger than oneself" with the 12-step idea of "higher power." These are different concepts.

I think AA (I was mostly in NA and worked on the literature committee) doesn't change the words for a couple reasons -- mostly because 70% or more of them ARE religious or at least putatively Christian, at least in the US (I am pretty sure a lot of the people who run the World Service Office are American).

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For what it's worth, AAWS is located in the Interchurch building in NYC. It's the only "non-religious" organization in that building.

The reason AA doesn't change its literature (the "basic text" of AA, the first 164 pages of the Big Book as first published in 1939) is a belief that if any word were changed it would make it less effective at helping alcoholics. This is in the AA history books as people saying to the effect "we've got something that works for alcoholics - let's not muck with it."

CrastersBabies said:

I go to Alanon. I've been to NA and AA meetings. Believing in God or a god is not a requirement. Many atheists utilize this program without any issue.

Nobody is forcing someone to "pretend to believe in God" or any higher power.

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While this may in some narrow technical sense be true, I sure heard a lot of "you don't have to believe, just act as if" in meetings. There's also this where I write about how it's "suggested" you pull the ripcord:
http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1663501&postcount=7

I've written enough about AA on AW that I could respond to a lot of posts just by linking to earlier posts I've made.

RedRajah said:

I want to know why he's not been allowed to transfer to a secular program though.

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This was answered, in many places they're just not available. Probably 95 percent of alcohol-and-drug treatment centers use the 12 steps and have 12-step meetings "available" for patients. Perhaps half of the remaining 5 percent is Scientology's Narconon treatment centers.

Even where they're available, judges (as in DUI and drug courts) don't send defendants to non-12-step groups or treatment centers, because 12-step members are always telling them that nothing else works, or the judges themselves are "two-hatters," 12-step members working "anonymously." And no, 12-step members do not see that as a conflict of interest.

Lyv said:

If you tell me I can't do something without a higher power and I don't believe in a higher power, you're telling me I can't do it. Period.

Legal issues aside.

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It's often said in meetings that one is not just powerless over alcohol (or narcotics, or whatever the 12-step program is about), but is also powerless over people, places and things. The powerless idea is repeated so often that people can buy into it without buying into the other 11 steps. Can you imagine where that leads?

benbradley said:

I think you're conflating "something stronger than oneself" with the 12-step idea of "higher power." These are different concepts.


The powerless idea is repeated so often that people can buy into it without buying into the other 11 steps. Can you imagine where that leads?

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I don't think they're different concepts at all -- to me, 'stronger than oneself' and 'more powerful (as in higher)' are the same. But that's just my understanding -- I've been attending 12 step meetings and/or working as a caseworker with addict/alcoholic clients since 1974. So I've had a lot of time to think about it and talk to other people who have been clean for a long time about what their understanding is.

I've already repeated several times in this thread what my understanding of 'powerlessness' or 'turning over my will' is -- but I'd be interested in hearing what yours is and where you think it might lead.

I want to make a point about the higher power issue: Regardless of how anyone tries to bend or mutilate the phrase "higher power" to mean something other than god, the commonly understood definition of the phrase--and judging by BB's post, the actual intended meaning in AA and possible other 12-step programs--is God or at least one of the main deities of a religion, generally assumed to be one of the major Judeo-Christian religions, although I think it's reasonable to expand that to a Hindu or Shinto (Or other) deity without too much over-stretching of the term.


To say that a pumpkin pie can be the "higher power" for an atheist is a fallacy. No matter how we might joke about praying to doorknobs, the original and still obvious idea behind the "higher power" as part of the process is some sort of God to whom the participant can submit their own failed will in order to overcome the addiction with the (at least perceived) assistance of such a deity. To use pumpkin pie as the deity does not remove the ethical issue of forcing an atheist (or other person with a different spiritual/non-spiritual persuasion) to accept God, it's just a way that that individual tries to make the best of the situation until they can escape, and honestly I'm not sure that results in a healthy approach towards the program for the person in question.

Honestly, it might be necessary to somewhat redesign the concepts from scratch in order to get past this issue. Only five of the 12 steps are without clear reference to God (no matter how many hedges are made about the meaning of the words "God/higher power", and they all seem reasonable steps to take. The fact that the twelfth step requires a "spiritual awakening" is probably the most egregious forcing of theist views on those who might not share them.

This is not to downplay the good that AA and other twelve-step programs may have done for some people. Each individual should take whatever steps they deem necessary to deal with their addiction. But people have this habit of believing that just because something has worked for them, it should work for everybody and if it doesn't, then it's the person not the process that is at fault.


It's somewhat pointless to play the game of "but isn't gravity stronger than you". For one thing, that doesn't make it a higher power, it merely makes it a factor beyond one's personal control. There's a lot of benefit in admitting such factors exists, but they are neither semantically nor thematically the same as a "higher power".

WARNING: Nitpicking post ahead!

Liosse de Velishaf said:

although I think it's reasonable to expand that to a Hindu or Shinto (Or other) deity without too much over-stretching of the term.

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So far as I understand it, there is no 'higher power' in Shinto. There are 'spirits', but my understanding is that they aren't 'higher' in the way that the Judeo-Christian god (for example) is.

It's somewhat pointless to play the game of "but isn't gravity stronger than you".

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It's also entirely inaccurate. Gravity is a very weak force - even weaker than the weak force. The only reason we stick to the planet is because it's so damn big.

JimmyB27 said:

WARNING: Nitpicking post ahead!


So far as I understand it, there is no 'higher power' in Shinto. There are 'spirits', but my understanding is that they aren't 'higher' in the way that the Judeo-Christian god (for example) is.

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That's arguable, but at least Shinto is a spiritual practice as opposed to atheism, which was my main point.

Also, it's certainly possible to pray to some of the Shinto deities in a similar way as you would pray to God.

It's also entirely inaccurate. Gravity is a very weak force - even weaker than the weak force. The only reason we stick to the planet is because it's so damn big.

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That, too.

Diana Hignutt said:

And, if you do succeed in beating an addiction...it's all you. You.

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In which case you're not in _____ Anonymous and this is a moot discussion.

I don't agree, by the way. If you continue to associate with a crowd that tends toward addiction, you're FAR more likely to fall back down.

To me, that's very strong evidence that there is an outside component. I don't care if you call it "higher" or not.

benbradley said:

It's often said in meetings that one is not just powerless over alcohol (or narcotics, or whatever the 12-step program is about), but is also powerless over people, places and things. The powerless idea is repeated so often that people can buy into it without buying into the other 11 steps. Can you imagine where that leads?

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Oh, I dunno. Perhaps a woman ending up with a male "sponsor" who takes advantage of that feeling of powerlessness, convinces her he's the droid she's been searching for, and destroys her relationships with all the members of her family, contrary to all the so-called "guidelines" of the program, secure in the knowledge that his actions will be backed up by other members of the AA "family" because he's "reformed?"

Or short answer, brainwashing?

Not that I'd have any first-hand experience with that, or anything.

Admitting one is powerless opens a huge door for someone "in authority" to walk in and take control.

I'm reminded of a Larken Rose quote that applies as well to AA as to any authoritarian organization.

The fundamental problem does not reside in any set of buildings, or any group of politicians, or any gang of soldiers or enforcers. The fundamental problem is not an organization that can be voted out, or overthrown, or “reformed.” The fundamental problem is the belief itself – the delusion, superstition and myth of “authority” – which resides in the minds of several billion human beings, including those who have suffered the most because of that belief.

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"Argue for your limitations, and sure enough, they're yours." - The Messiah's Handbook

robjvargas said:

In which case you're not in _____ Anonymous and this is a moot discussion.

I don't agree, by the way. If you continue to associate with a crowd that tends toward addiction, you're FAR more likely to fall back down.

To me, that's very strong evidence that there is an outside component. I don't care if you call it "higher" or not.

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Nonsense, only the user can end an addiction. The rest is props and gimmicks. One does not have to join a 12 step program to not associate with addicted friends. If this is your evidence, it is evidence of a negative external force...which is pretty much simply put as: if you want to stop doing such and such, then don't hang out around such and such. The outside source herein is the lack of such and such, not some external benefactor or higher power.

As someone who's kicked an addiction or two...it was me that did it, not God, not any group, just me. Does support hurt? Of course, not. But in the end, if the user isn't ready to quit, nothing will help them quit. That said, I've never been in a 12 step program. Just a 1 step program of my own design: stopping taking the addictive substance. Brilliant, I know, but I'm like that.