Said Is Dead?!

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VeryBigBeard

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The purpose of the dialogue tag is to identify the speaker, and if identification is needed then the sooner that is done the better. Burying a speaker identification tag in the middle of a paragraph thinking it makes the tag 'even more invisible' is both self-deception and wrong.

I agree with your response to that except for the bolded part, in some situations. I like using tags to very occasionally alter sentence rhythm if there's a solid reason to do so and I can get away with it in terms of clarity. I wouldn't do it to make the tag more invisible but I would do it to affect cadence.

It's just like any other rule: useful, but not absolute. If it's not clear who's speaking, it's a good idea to get the dialogue tag in at the first natural break*. A dialogue tag shouldn't create repetition, unless that repetition is useful (which, with tags, it rarely is).

--

*It just occurred to me while typing that that we wouldn't put a tag solely to clarify speaker early in a line of dialogue if it broke the rhythm of the sentence. We might break the sentence, but only at the end of a phrase where there's a natural pause.

"Go get some milk from the store. The one down the road," said Annie.

"Go get some milk from the store," said Annie. "The one down the road."

Both of those are fine but they sound different.

"Go get some milk," said Annie, "from the store. The one down the road." I'd have issues with breaking the phrase in that spot, though, unless I wanted to really fragment what is already a pretty curt, fragmented line.
 

Bufty

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I don't know why you took exception to an isolated part of a phrase out of my post, and then qualified your objection.

The complete phrase, which I maintain is sound advice, is - ...if identification is needed then the sooner that is done the better.

Originally Posted by Bufty View Post
The purpose of the dialogue tag is to identify the speaker, and if identification is needed then the sooner that is done the better. Burying a speaker identification tag in the middle of a paragraph thinking it makes the tag 'even more invisible' is both self-deception and wrong.

=VeryBigBeard;9182563]I agree with your response to that except for the bolded part, in some situations. ...
 
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IOh dear, we'll have to disagree on this one. Spelling out questions and answers may not be strictly necessary, but sometimes 'asked' or 'replied' just feels more natural than 'said'. I actually have a problem with questions being 'said' rather than asked. It jars with me, so no, I don't think this is automatically 'bad writing' - it just depends what you're familiar with.

Actually, we don't disagree on that although I drop the use of "replied" from my repetoire. I do use "asked" with a question. Not all questions. Sometimes the character asks a question at the beginning and then continues their dialogue. Using a thesaurus to find synonyms for "asked", though, is along the same line as action verbs.

And, Bufty, it does make the tags more invisible in the middle of a sentence than at the end. Key word "more." That's just how the mind works. Kind of like an optical illusion. The "string of saids" authors generally struggle with are at the end of short paragraphs in a quick exchange. Those "saids" stand out like a sore thumb. As we all know, though, there are ways to alleviate that issue. However, just dropping all of them is a bad answer with its own problems.

As others mentioned although I was getting so long winded I didn't ... I fully agree that this is a guideline, not a rule. I, too, have looked at old writing as well as fresh and most authors still chunk in action verbs instead of said. It's a form of purple prose, and folks trying to offer advice on it are drowned out in a hurricane of verb users.

I use said, asked, and a variety of volume verbs. The addendum to the "rule" is: modify the way it's spoken and not try to add meaning to the dialogue. I don't use other verbs although I used to. I've learned my lesson in that regard. I use beats (character actions) as well although some critics claim my characters look twitchy. I can live with that. Better twitchy and thus alive than yet another talking mannequin.

That's my two coppers worth.
 

rwm4768

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I'll mention that I have a specific situation in which I use replied. Sentences like these:

"That's what I said," he replied.

It would read terribly as:

"That's what I said," he said.


I'll generally look for some kind of action tag in this situation, or see if I need a tag at all. But if neither of those works, I doubt the reader is going to freak out over this specific usage of replied.
 

Bufty

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I'm sorry, but the point is not to bury identification tags or to make them more invisible - it's to place them where they convey the required information in the most effective way possible - and if the purpose is to identify the speaker then the sooner that is done the better.

See? It doesn't take all that long to make a point.:Hug2:

Actually, we don't disagree on that although I drop the use of "replied" from my repetoire. I do use "asked" with a question. Not all questions. Sometimes the character asks a question at the beginning and then continues their dialogue. Using a thesaurus to find synonyms for "asked", though, is along the same line as action verbs.

And, Bufty, it does make the tags more invisible in the middle of a sentence than at the end. Key word "more." That's just how the mind works. Kind of like an optical illusion. The "string of saids" authors generally struggle with are at the end of short paragraphs in a quick exchange. Those "saids" stand out like a sore thumb. As we all know, though, there are ways to alleviate that issue. However, just dropping all of them is a bad answer with its own problems.

As others mentioned although I was getting so long winded I didn't ... I fully agree that this is a guideline, not a rule. I, too, have looked at old writing as well as fresh and most authors still chunk in action verbs instead of said. It's a form of purple prose, and folks trying to offer advice on it are drowned out in a hurricane of verb users.

I use said, asked, and a variety of volume verbs. The addendum to the "rule" is: modify the way it's spoken and not try to add meaning to the dialogue. I don't use other verbs although I used to. I've learned my lesson in that regard. I use beats (character actions) as well although some critics claim my characters look twitchy. I can live with that. Better twitchy and thus alive than yet another talking mannequin.

That's my two coppers worth.
 

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Sometimes people confuse fashion with "the absolute right way to do things."

The preference for "said" versus other terms is the current fashion, something like the "bare and spare" look in home decorating. A century ago, it wasn't the trend at all. If schoolteachers bring back a million different ways of saying "said," that will not be a lapse into horrible writing, it will be the resurrection of an older style and making it new.

Imagine people sitting on overstuffed settees, resting their heads against antimacassars, reading "'Oh no!' she expostulated," on their latest e-readers. And thinking how terribly modern it is.
 

xDream

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I'll mention that I have a specific situation in which I use replied. Sentences like these:

"That's what I said," he replied.

It would read terribly as:

"That's what I said," he said.


I'll generally look for some kind of action tag in this situation, or see if I need a tag at all. But if neither of those works, I doubt the reader is going to freak out over this specific usage of replied.

I completely agree with this. 'Replied,' 'told him,' and other tags like that are fine. But when every sentence is 'breathed,' 'crooned,' 'wearied,' or 'questioned,' I have a strong urge to put the book down.
 

RDArmstrong

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This is totally unrelated but ...
B: It's not a motorcycle baby. It's a chopper.
F: Who's chopper is this?
B: It's Said's chopper.
F: Who's Said?
B: Said, dead, baby. Said's dead.

Haha, first thing i thought of!


And no said is not dead.
Just keep consistent with its use and it becomes invisible. Words are only a problem if they stand out because they are too rarely used to be repeated in close succession.
 
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thewritingpiazza

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My rule of thumb is, if I'm tired of writing "said" then my reader will probably be tired of reading it. Though I have added it back in more than I did before because I was originally told not to use said.Now I just try to go by what feels right. I've read thousands of books so I know instinctively when something sounds unnaturally repetitive, that's when I rearrange or rewrite things to add more variety.

Just my two cents.
 

TheWordsmith

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BTW, I leafed through several of my harry potter books and she uses many creative dialogue tags and -ly adverbs to modify "said" when it is used.

Rowling is probably not the best example, or role model, as far as the best way to write. Hm. Come to think of it, NOBODY is probably the best example. There are so many ways of doing things. And you may do it all "wrong" but it really strikes a responsive chord in your readers. Then other writers see something in your writing and they think, "Hey! That's a good idea!" And they start modeling the way you write and you've created a whole new way of approaching writing. And people will be using you as the guidepost for the "right" way to write!

Writing, like everything else in life, changes and morphs with social perspectives. All you have to do is look at books from long ago as compared to books published today. The style and approach is so completely different but it worked then. That was THE way to write right.

Things change so don't get too hung up on some artificial rules. Rowling works for the concept in her books and her style is accepted. But, years ago, a writer would practically be burned at the stake for all of those adverbs and their -ly endings!

So my advice is to learn about what is considered 'right' now as far as writing but, if it just doesn't feel that way to you, don't be afraid to push the parameters. Your way might be 'more right'. =)
 

xDream

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Rowling is probably not the best example, or role model, as far as the best way to write. Hm. Come to think of it, NOBODY is probably the best example. There are so many ways of doing things. And you may do it all "wrong" but it really strikes a responsive chord in your readers. Then other writers see something in your writing and they think, "Hey! That's a good idea!" And they start modeling the way you write and you've created a whole new way of approaching writing. And people will be using you as the guidepost for the "right" way to write!

Writing, like everything else in life, changes and morphs with social perspectives. All you have to do is look at books from long ago as compared to books published today. The style and approach is so completely different but it worked then. That was THE way to write right.

Things change so don't get too hung up on some artificial rules. Rowling works for the concept in her books and her style is accepted. But, years ago, a writer would practically be burned at the stake for all of those adverbs and their -ly endings!

So my advice is to learn about what is considered 'right' now as far as writing but, if it just doesn't feel that way to you, don't be afraid to push the parameters. Your way might be 'more right'. =)

It's not a popular opinion, but I agree. Rowling is an amazing world creator, but I didn't connect with the "voice" of Harry Potter.
 

G.G. Rebimik

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"Said is dead" is some of the worst advice you could give to a beginning writer.

It's true that in poorly-written dialog "said" can appear intrusive. That's because you don't need to attribute every line. For example:


"Marcia said she'd be meeting me here today," Jennifer said.

"I don't see her," Randy said.

"I don't see her either," Jennifer said.

"Maybe if you wait until four she'll show," Randy said.
...is pretty dreadful, but not because of "said."


"Marcia [font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif] confided[/font] she'd be meeting me here today," Jennifer [font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif] whimpered[/font].

"I don't see her," Randy [font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif] complained[/font].

"I don't see her either," Jennifer [font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif] reported[/font].

"Maybe if you wait until four she'll show," Randy [font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif] advised[/font].


...isn't an improvement.

What would be an improvement would be dropping the tags altogether. Presumably the reader knows that the two characters in the scene are Randy and Jennifer.

Try this:

"Hi, Jennifer. What brings you out here?"
"Marcia said she'd be meeting me."

"I don't see her."

"I don't see her either."

"Maybe if you wait until four she'll show."

Excellent...!
 

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'Said' is one of the most boring words to read when it's too frequent or there is no description of how the character is feeling as they're speaking - we all 'say' things, but you might as well be reading about a talking clock. It may come in a little later on and I realise I read their emotion all wrong. I don't like guessing as it spoils the flow. Over-the-top replacements to 'said' annoy me sometimes, depending on what they are. At least if they're going to use a wider vocabulary, they understand the way to use it, even if it does ruffle feathers.
 

blacbird

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'Said' is one of the most boring words to read when it's too frequent or there is no description of how the character is feeling as they're speaking

Most good writers convey feelings through what is spoken, and context, rather than telling the reader how the character feels. Just like most good writers convey the identity of speakers without using constant speech attribution.

Go read some Bradbury, or Elmore Leonard, or John D. MacDonald.

caw
 
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guttersquid

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'Said' is one of the most boring words to read when it's too frequent or there is no description of how the character is feeling as they're speaking

You know what else are boring? Hammers. I mean, they just lie there, taking up space.

But once you pick one up and use it . . .
 
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Excellent...!

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. All three of those were examples of how not to do dialogue. All stood out like sore thumbs. There is no "right way" when it comes to writing, especially dialogue, but there are plenty of "wrong ways." Using a "wrong way" at the "right time" can add the right punch to a paragraph. Breaking the rules for the right reason is perfectly acceptable. Breaking them just to break them will get your book into the trash can faster than you can say "said."
 

cruellae

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I've read authors who used "said." I've read authors who used "replied." The only time I'm tempted to put the book down is when they use "grated" "bemoaned" "wrung out" etc. The rest of the time, I honestly don't even notice it. And that, I think, is the ultimate goal.
 

Bufty

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I think you've completely misread both the quoted section and G. G. Rebimik's comment on the quote.

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. All three of those were examples of how not to do dialogue. All stood out like sore thumbs. There is no "right way" when it comes to writing, especially dialogue, but there are plenty of "wrong ways." Using a "wrong way" at the "right time" can add the right punch to a paragraph. Breaking the rules for the right reason is perfectly acceptable. Breaking them just to break them will get your book into the trash can faster than you can say "said."
 

M.S. Wiggins

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Somebody, please, for my sanity—do you see anything wrong with the following 'excerpts'? (My use of brackets are to change character names and/or nouns out of respect to the successfully published author of whose work this is, so that I may increase my own knowledge…sorry, best I can do, I’m not a lawyer!)

“And what did they say?” says [Chuck] carefully.

“What about my [frogs]?” I say. “Will they [be unjustly punished]?”

“What’s your name?” he said, coming over and [doing some stuff].

“What’s going on?” says [Elsa], a note of [crazy worry] in her voice. “Did you [fart]?
Is there something I’m missing? Or unaware of? (I ask any and all who will answer.)
 

BethS

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Somebody, please, for my sanity—do you see anything wrong with the following 'excerpts'? (My use of brackets are to change character names and/or nouns out of respect to the successfully published author of whose work this is, so that I may increase my own knowledge…sorry, best I can do, I’m not a lawyer!)

Is there something I’m missing? Or unaware of? (I ask any and all who will answer.)

I assume these are sentences taken from random places in the story? Because they make no sense if they're part of a single excerpt.

Taken individually, there's nothing at all wrong with them, as far as I can tell. (Although in the first one, I would have used "asks" rather than "says" because it's a question and also to avoid the repetition with "say."

Do you think there's something with them?
 
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Sage

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You mean other than the tense change? And how distracting the brackets are?
 

M.S. Wiggins

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Yes, they are from random places throughout the novel. What I want to know is, should these 'says' be 'asks'?
 

M.S. Wiggins

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Oh...and the distracting brackets. Sorry, I really am trying to be respectful to the author.
 
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