Writing Beliveable Plots

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Procrastinista

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I suck.

I have written three novels, and every time some of my beta readers tell me that this and that character are not believable because they would never really do blah, blah, blah.

I'm a loss what to do. My beta readers tell me that my writing continues to improve. That's all very well, but I can't get over this last hurdle. It's not like I haven't tried mixing up my strategy. My first novel I made up as I went along, my second novel, I outlined to a certain degree but significantly revised to the point where the plot was completely different, and the third novel I outlined for a couple months, writing 50 pages of notes, and only then began writing. I've spent about 2.5 years on each novel.

What's weird is that most of my critique buddies consider me to be an excellent plotter.

The only thing that would give me hope is if every story has elements that don't make sense and that I shouldn't fret about this. Otherwise, I'm really not sure what to do.

For example, why didn't Frodo early on just let an eagle carry him to the mountain and then drop the ring in the lava?

BTW, I'm not a lame-ass writer. I scored an agent with my first novel, but have yet to publish.

Any advice or comforting will be greatly appreciated!
 

Okelly65

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this is only my opinion. in general Characters are only as believable as the readers life experience.
 

Brightdreamer

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I suck.

I have written three novels, and every time some of my beta readers tell me that this and that character are not believable because they would never really do blah, blah, blah.
...

What's weird is that most of my critique buddies consider me to be an excellent plotter.

...

BTW ... I scored an agent with my first novel, but have yet to publish.

One of these things is not like the others... If you have an agent, that means you're doing something right. If most of your critique buddies like your plots, you're doing something right. I'd reconsider your choice of betas, in this case.

Otherwise, as others have said, maybe you need to work more on character consistency.

(And the thing with Frodo... Tolkien fans can tell you precise details, but there were limits on what the black eagles could or could not - or rather, would or would not - do. They were not there to be a sky taxi for hobbits. It's part of the extra material, possibly the Silmarillion or elsewhere, just what Gandalf's arrangement/deal with the eagles was, and it did not include directly confronting Sauron or flying into molten lava. In any event, neither Bilbo nor Frodo had any control over the black eagles. Nor were they the kind of characters who would try to dominate the eagles into doing their bidding - which is just as well, as it would've ended rather badly for them had they tried.)
 
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Niccolo

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I suck.

I have written three novels, and every time some of my beta readers tell me that this and that character are not believable because they would never really do blah, blah, blah.

I'm a loss what to do. My beta readers tell me that my writing continues to improve. That's all very well, but I can't get over this last hurdle. It's not like I haven't tried mixing up my strategy. My first novel I made up as I went along, my second novel, I outlined to a certain degree but significantly revised to the point where the plot was completely different, and the third novel I outlined for a couple months, writing 50 pages of notes, and only then began writing. I've spent about 2.5 years on each novel.

What's weird is that most of my critique buddies consider me to be an excellent plotter.

The only thing that would give me hope is if every story has elements that don't make sense and that I shouldn't fret about this. Otherwise, I'm really not sure what to do.

For example, why didn't Frodo early on just let an eagle carry him to the mountain and then drop the ring in the lava?

BTW, I'm not a lame-ass writer. I scored an agent with my first novel, but have yet to publish.

Any advice or comforting will be greatly appreciated!

(Bolding mine)

Then clearly it's not as big an issue as your beta-readers seem to think. What, exactly, was the problem with believably? Were characters acting out of character? Or were there plot holes? These are two different issues and they'll have two different solutions.
 

Niccolo

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this is only my opinion. in general Characters are only as believable as the readers life experience.

I have to disagree with this. A well-written character can be believed by anyone. I didn't have to be a nervous young woman pregnant with her first child to believe and sympathize with Rosemary.
 

CathleenT

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Procrastinisa,

You do not suck. You have an agent; I don't. You've written three novels and you are still honing your craft. The last bit makes you like everyone else around here.

You get discouraged because you really thought you'd be published by now, and even though you're trying hard to grow, you still haven't managed to do it enough to meet your goals. And that makes you sad, and disappointed in yourself.

And that makes you like a whole lot of writers. Probably most of us.

There is nothing at all wrong with you.

Don't give up. You'll nail this thing.
 

Procrastinista

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Procrastinisa,

You do not suck. You have an agent; I don't. You've written three novels and you are still honing your craft. The last bit makes you like everyone else around here.

You get discouraged because you really thought you'd be published by now, and even though you're trying hard to grow, you still haven't managed to do it enough to meet your goals. And that makes you sad, and disappointed in yourself.

And that makes you like a whole lot of writers. Probably most of us.

There is nothing at all wrong with you.

Don't give up. You'll nail this thing.

Thanks for this, C. You are spot-on. And just what I needed to hear.
 

Okelly65

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I have to disagree with this. A well-written character can be believed by anyone. I didn't have to be a nervous young woman pregnant with her first child to believe and sympathize with Rosemary.
thats not exactly what I meant, but I stand corrected anyway.

I was more referring to people who find skills and attitudes unbelievable because they have no real frame of reference.
 

blacbird

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blacbird

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About "believable" plots:

I think too many people who comment here worry too much about "plots".

Huckleberry Finn and escaped slave Jim famously tried to get free by drifting DOWNRIVER deep into southern slave territory on a raft. Believable?

In real life, Charles Manson assembled a cult of devotées to start a race war based on the Beatles' song "Helter Skelter", and they murdered at least seven people savagely, out of "love" for them. Believable?

The Heaven's Gate cult, led by a guy named Marshall Applewhite, thought a celestial "mothership" followed Comet Hale-Bopp, twenty or so years ago, would take them all into the wondrous afterlife. 39 of them, including Applewhite, drank poison and died in order to get to that mothership. Believable?

Concentrate on making your characters "believable", and let the "plot" take care of itself.

caw
 
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Quickbread

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Blacbird is right. Let your plot emerge naturally from the characters. If you have a deep handle on them, then you'll know how they would act (or not), for better or worse, in response to the pressures that the story places on them. And those actions will feel believable.
 

neandermagnon

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Sometimes a character does something that's out of character for them, and even though the character and the plot are believable, the idea of that particular character doing that particular thing is what's not believable. For example if you have a character who is not good at maths or science saving the day by suddenly remembering a complex physics equation and re-engineering the spaceship to do something unusual - that's not believable. So it's not the plot or the character that's the problem. In this case you'd need a different character, who's already been established as being highly proficient in physics and engineering, to do the heroics.

No idea if that's relevant to your plot or not, but it's a possible explanation if people are saying your plot is good generally.
 

BethS

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I suck.

I have written three novels, and every time some of my beta readers tell me that this and that character are not believable because they would never really do blah, blah, blah.

Maybe it's a matter of failing to set up strong and believable motivations for the characters?

I scored an agent with my first novel, but have yet to publish.

Has your agent seen these manuscripts? What does he or she have to say about them?
 
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Procrastinista

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Has your agent seen these manuscripts? What does he or she have to say about them?[/QUOTE]

She's had concerns about believability to some degree, but not more than other issues. For my first novel I was able to revise to a point where she loved it and tried to sell it. For my second novel, she read it three times and made comments each time, but in the end, she didn't want to try to sell it; she didn't think it was working. Believability was a bit of the issue, but I think her concern was more around the voice and internal thoughts of the MC. She has yet to read my current novel--I'm still revising.

Probably she's not that concerned with believability because she's reading my work only after I've attended to believability issues my critique group have brought to my attention.

Point of clarification: my beta readers are also my critique group members.
 

Jamesaritchie

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this is only my opinion. in general Characters are only as believable as the readers life experience.

I don't know whether to agree or disagree with this. I've certainly written characters that some readers did not believe because those readers had no experience telling them a person really could do this, so I guess I agree more than disagree.
 

Jamesaritchie

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Maybe you're a good writer, and you have lame ass beta readers. My experience is that beta readers kill nine writers for every one they help, and that's being generous. Every damned, lousy, semi-literate manuscript in a slush pile was approved by umpteen beta readers.

Have some fun. Find a recently published story by a good writer. Copy and paste it into manuscript form, and tell your beta readers you wrote it. If the results don't terrify you, your beta readers are probably good ones. If your results are anything at all like the ones I always see when I've done this, you may swear off beta readers forever.
 

Marlys

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Have some fun. Find a recently published story by a good writer. Copy and paste it into manuscript form, and tell your beta readers you wrote it. If the results don't terrify you, your beta readers are probably good ones. If your results are anything at all like the ones I always see when I've done this, you may swear off beta readers forever.

If someone pulled that bit of "fun" on me, they'd be finding themselves another critique partner.
 

morngnstar

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For example, why didn't Frodo early on just let an eagle carry him to the mountain and then drop the ring in the lava?

That's more of a plot hole, if anything. Mostly I think it's just finding fault with something that's considered great. You're talking about bad characterization. Bad characterization would be if Gandalf said, "Alright then, hand me the ring, and I'll be off to Mordor. Wish me luck." He doesn't, because he's afraid the ring will corrupt him. It's good characterization that Frodo volunteers to take the ring, but only after he becomes jealous of anyone else taking it (really this is characterization of the ring as a character, not Frodo).

Being a "good plotter" may be a hindrance to writing believable characters, because, having got your plot, you want your characters to make it happen, but they might not want to play along. Listen to them. You might have to give them some additional motivation. In some cases, though, the presence of that motivation will seem too "convenient". You might have to do what your characters say instead. An author is not a dictator. If your characters are telling you that your plot should take a different turn, try it. Your whole ending might change, but your story will be truer.

An extreme approach is to be a pantser, and write a lot with your characters until you know them intimately and know what they would do in a situation. You let the story unfold from decision to decision according to their will. I think in the end you will decide this is not for you, but try it. You might discover some interesting events or decisions that you can work into your carefully plotted structure.

Another tip is to work out a detailed backstory for your characters. You don't ever have to reveal any of it to your readers, but knowing the character's background will help you understand how they think and what motivates their decisions.
 

Roxxsmom

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If you're writing fantasy, there's probably always going to be something about the plot and world building that won't work for some readers in terms of realism. That's because we all have different kinds of fantasy we like and different places where we're willing to suspend disbelief.

With betas, you need to find someone who represents your target audience. Sometimes, holes in characterization and world building are the reasons why readers will pick nits. Other times, things about the character and world are why something some see as a plot hole really isn't. Frex, you mentioned LoTR. The reason the eagle "solution" isn't a plot hole to most Tolkien fans is because they noticed things about the situation, world, and characters (including Sauron, the Nazgul, and the eagles themselves) that would have made this approach unworkable. Some readers, however, didn't pick up on these things, or they didn't accept them as limitations.

Of course, if the overall thrust of the story is good or interesting enough, many people will forgive even a major plot hole or flaw in presmise, if that plot hole is what allows the premise to exist in the first place (The Matrix comes to mind here).

If your readers and agent are all saying that your characters are somewhat unbelievable, then it may not be the plot at all, per se. It could be that your characters are behaving in ways that are inconsistent with their personalities or abilities? Morningstar makes a good point in the post above. If you tend to write strongly plot-driven stories, then maybe you're trying to shoehorn your characters in, and they're coming off as less than believable or compelling.

And don't despair. It's not unusual for someone to have to work through 2-3 agented novels before one sells.
 
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Jamesaritchie

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For example, why didn't Frodo early on just let an eagle carry him to the mountain and then drop the ring in the lava?

!

Because that close to his home territory, the eagle would have been easy prey for Sauron. If something goes wrong while you're on an eagle, it's a long fall.
 

Jamesaritchie

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If someone pulled that bit of "fun" on me, they'd be finding themselves another critique partner.

For most, there's no doubt about it. After seeing the results, they WANT a different critique partner as fast as possible, and they'll probably never want another one.

But we pull it on writing groups and workshops as a whole, so no one gets mad at a partner, they get mad at us. Trouble is, they still have to face the results, and almost without exception, they more than speak for themselves.
 

Ferret

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Believability was a bit of the issue, but I think her concern was more around the voice and internal thoughts of the MC. She has yet to read my current novel--I'm still revising.

I think problems with believability and internal thoughts can be closely related. It's important to show why characters do what they do. Maybe clarifying the motivation would help.
 

Mr Flibble

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I think problems with believability and internal thoughts can be closely related. It's important to show why characters do what they do. Maybe clarifying the motivation would help.

Because when you come down to it -- character is plot

Character A does this thing because he wants the MacGuffin. Character B takes issue with character A. Meanwhile, character Z has a different motivation for wanting character A to get it....


Plot evoles from what the characters want -- this includes protags, antags, secondary characters....

Characters and heir different motivations, wants and needs, world views , ARE conflict, and ultimately plot. If you show (not tell through too much interior monologue -- my weakness) what everyone wants and how these are not the same,and what they do to get/stop events. BANG, plot.

Think of a film you really loved. Boil it down. Almost certainly it will be X wants this because Y, but A wants to stop him because B.

Darth Vader wants to carry out the emperor's orders (The Emperor wants to rule galaxy)
Luke wants to get away from Tatootine and be like his Dad
Hans just wants to make some money
Leia wants to save the rebel alliance and depose the empire

Each character's motivation moves the plot along until WHAMMY. Climax. What do your characters want? Above everything else? As long as they do not agree, then you have a plot, and if you show those characters well, the plot will be believable
 

job

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tell me that this and that character are not believable because they would never really do blah, blah, blah.

Good characters have needs, desires, hopes, fears, beliefs.
The action of a story should arise from these motivations.

When characters are unbelievable, it's often because the writer makes them serve the plot rather than their own desires. The writer moves the characters around as if they were action figures
or Barbies.
Do this; do that; go here; go there.


Readers will accept any amount of unlikeliness as to ROUS or Fireswamps or Cloaks of Invisibility. They will not accept three ounces of unlikeliness when it comes to character motivation.

So if your beta readers say
"Why did Wulfric suddenly decide to kill Hudson?" or
"I don't think Justine would suddenly take off in a small boat in the storm,"
it may be because you are playing action figures with Wulfric and Justine.

How to get in touch with the fears, hopes, desires of your characters?

-- If you have plot thingums the character must absolutely do -- plan your character from Chapter One as the sort of man who will do those things.

-- Before a character enters the scene, poke into his head and make a status report.
Where did he just come from? When was the last time he saw the other people in this scene? What unfinished business does he have with them. How is he dressed? How does his body feel? Is he cold, hungry, angry, tired, happy?
What does he want in the moment before the scene starts.

-- The first time you go through a scene, write it as a Stream of Consciousness in the POV of one of the characters. Then write it again as the Stream of Consciousness from the POV of another character.
This will tell you who your characters are. It'll tell you what they are likely to do.
 
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