The Zharmae Publishing Press

It is not an urban legend though I can not give you links to articles at this time.

There is a reason why many well know authors will not look at someone else's manuscript. Also, there is a reason why many published authors will not do freelance editing on the side. In both cases, they don't want to have to defend themselves against some misguided no name author claiming copyright theft or plagiarism...

The only reason I bring this up is because Zharmae could be setting themselves up for a lawsuit should some writer in the future claim such theft. Win, loose or draw, Zharmae will have to eat the legal fees...

I am not too worried about it myself since I do not plan on submitting to Zharmae, but thought it worth a mention to show this is not well thought out by Zharmae...

thothguard51 said:

It is not an urban legend though I can not give you links to articles at this time.

There is a reason why many well know authors will not look at someone else's manuscript. Also, there is a reason why many published authors will not do freelance editing on the side. In both cases, they don't want to have to defend themselves against some misguided no name author claiming copyright theft or plagiarism...

The only reason I bring this up is because Zharmae could be setting themselves up for a lawsuit should some writer in the future claim such theft. Win, loose or draw, Zharmae will have to eat the legal fees...

I am not too worried about it myself since I do not plan on submitting to Zharmae, but thought it worth a mention to show this is not well thought out by Zharmae...

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Until you can show me an example, I'm still calling it an urban legend. In almost 15 years of working in the publishing industry, I've never heard of or seen an example of somebody from a commercial publishing house stealing a submission and having it published as his/her own. I've heard people fret about it, I've heard stories of people doing the "mail yourself a copy of your manuscript because it's 'poor man's copyright' and that way nobody can steal your book" thing. But I've never actually seen the situation you warned against reported anywhere.

I thought the reason authors don't look at manuscripts is to avoid being sued. If an author reads a manuscript about a UFO, then happens to coincidentally write about a UFO, it's easy for that person to sue, which costs the author at the very least legal expenses and time.

I have heard of one or two cases of work being "borrowed," but most cases are authors doing it, and it's not stealing things from a slush pile. I do recall one situation where a publisher (I think) had done something like this, but I honestly can't recall details. It would be exceedingly rare, I think.

It's more common to hear about situations like that with regards to movies (Gravity being the most recent). That doesn't mean I would want just anyone to have access to my book, though. With the ease of self-publishing and the fact that we know people have made "books" by copy and pasting blogs, I wouldn't want unknown people to have access to my manuscripts, whether the fear is founded or unfounded.

I can't cite books but it happens in the film industry quite a bit. There's a reason why my agent asks that I minimize contact with film companies when they inquire about optioning my books.

As for an example of stolen manuscript/ideas, look no further than The Matrix. Blatantly stolen, and yes the film company had to pay for 15 years or so later.

As for Zharmae and stealing book ideas, it's definitely possible but that's the very very least of your concerns when it comes to this situation.

Debeucci said:

I can't cite books but it happens in the film industry quite a bit. There's a reason why my agent asks that I minimize contact with film companies when they inquire about optioning my books.

As for an example of stolen manuscript/ideas, look no further than The Matrix. Blatantly stolen, and yes the film company had to pay for 15 years or so later.

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Are you referring to the Sophia Stewart case?

Bicyclefish said:

Are you referring to the Sophia Stewart case?

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That's a perfect example of urban legend being passed off as fact. Thank you for that link.

I've yet to find a reliable example of a submitted manuscript being stolen and published, but as Filigree mentions there have been various high profile cases of fanfiction being plagiarized and sold.

The Shey Stahl case is particularly memorable, where Twighlight fanfiction was stolen and sold as various contemp YA titles.

It's much more common for plagiarists to use published sources rather than lurking in the slush pile. Fanfiction particularly is free-to-read and easy to copy-paste, so some less savoury types upload them as ebooks for a quick buck, but it happens to a string of trade published spy novels too.

EMaree said:

I've yet to find a reliable example of a submitted manuscript being stolen and published, but as Filigree mentions there have been various high profile cases of fanfiction being plagiarized and sold.

The Shey Stahl case is particularly memorable, where Twighlight fanfiction was stolen and sold as various contemp YA titles.

It's much more common for plagiarists to use published sources rather than lurking in the slush pile. Fanfiction particularly is free-to-read and easy to copy-paste, so some less savoury types upload them as ebooks for a quick buck, but it happens to a string of trade published spy novels too.

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My point isn't that plagiarism doesn't exist. The Q.R. Markham is a perfectly well-documented and high profile case of it. I also agree that in the film industry people are told not to discuss or listen to "ideas for a movie" because of lawsuits that claim an idea has been stolen.

What I'm saying is, very specifically, I cannot recall and still have seen no evidence of a slush reader, be it an intern or an editorial assistant at a commercial publisher stealing a manuscript and passing it off as his/her own to get it published elsewhere. That was Thothguard's warning re: Zharmae and it still seems like an entirely unfounded concern with no historical precedent.

Round Two said:

That's a perfect example of urban legend being passed off as fact. Thank you for that link.

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Dang it! I've been bamboozled.

Damn you internet! /shakes fist!

Round Two said:

Until you can show me an example, I'm still calling it an urban legend. In almost 15 years of working in the publishing industry, I've never heard of or seen an example of somebody from a commercial publishing house stealing a submission and having it published as his/her own. I've heard people fret about it, I've heard stories of people doing the "mail yourself a copy of your manuscript because it's 'poor man's copyright' and that way nobody can steal your book" thing. But I've never actually seen the situation you warned against reported anywhere.

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I've been involved in two instances of plagiarism.

On one occasion a major publisher in the US took the detailed proposal I'd written and hung onto it. They kept on promising a contract for the book, but eventually told my agent that they'd signed a far better-known author to write a similar book and so wouldn't be signing mine. The editor involved resigned and sent me a copy of the more famous author's proposal and yep, it was my one. Someone at the publisher had handed it over to the other author, slightly changed, and asked him to write a book to fit my outline.

My agent got me a substantial payment for that one.

The second involved a newspaper. I approached them to write an article about a big story in animal extinction; they agreed; I wrote it and it duly appeared--only without my name on it. Instead the editor who had signed the piece put her name onto it, and claimed the scoop.

Again, my agent got me a nice big payment.

Plagiarism doesn't happen often, but it does happen. Having said that I don't think it's something we should worry about so long as we have good representation, and only submit to good publishers.

kaitie said:

I thought the reason authors don't look at manuscripts is to avoid being sued. If an author reads a manuscript about a UFO, then happens to coincidentally write about a UFO, it's easy for that person to sue, which costs the author at the very least legal expenses and time.

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That's part of it, and I've begged off of reading work for that very reason. Also, some writers are looking for validation from a pro. In both cases, I suggest the writer join a crit group or workshop. I honestly think they'll get better feedback.

Old Hack said:

I've been involved in two instances of plagiarism.

On one occasion a major publisher in the US took the detailed proposal I'd written and hung onto it. They kept on promising a contract for the book, but eventually told my agent that they'd signed a far better-known author to write a similar book and so wouldn't be signing mine. The editor involved resigned and sent me a copy of the more famous author's proposal and yep, it was my one. Someone at the publisher had handed it over to the other author, slightly changed, and asked him to write a book to fit my outline.

My agent got me a substantial payment for that one.

The second involved a newspaper. I approached them to write an article about a big story in animal extinction; they agreed; I wrote it and it duly appeared--only without my name on it. Instead the editor who had signed the piece put her name onto it, and claimed the scoop.

Again, my agent got me a nice big payment.

Plagiarism doesn't happen often, but it does happen. Having said that I don't think it's something we should worry about so long as we have good representation, and only submit to good publishers.

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Again, my point isn't now and has never been that plagiarism doesn't exist. It is that, the idea that a slush reader at a commercial publisher has ever stolen a work that has come over the transom and then went on to sell it elsewhere as his/her own work has zero historical precedence as far as I can see.

The case you have with the newspaper is approaching that, but it is not a commercial book publisher, nor is it an entry level reader.

Out of curiosity, did the editor at the newspaper ever try to explain herself?

Round Two said:

Again, my point isn't now and has never been that plagiarism doesn't exist. It is that, the idea that a slush reader at a commercial publisher has ever stolen a work that has come over the transom and then went on to sell it elsewhere as his/her own work has zero historical precedence as far as I can see.

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I agree, but Zharmae is not a commercial publisher as we think of a commercial publisher. They are still a small start up with NO reputation as being trustworthy, good, or bad. The things they are trying are things other start ups have tried and gone bust with, so, if Zharmae wants to succeed, they need to do things a little better...

Like vet their beta readers...

thothguard51 said:

I agree, but Zharmae is not a commercial publisher as we think of a commercial publisher. They are still a small start up with NO reputation as being trustworthy, good, or bad. The things they are trying are things other start ups have tried and gone bust with, so, if Zharmae wants to succeed, they need to do things a little better...

Like vet their beta readers...

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All well and good, but where is the precedent for this kind of thing happening before by any publisher or equivalent of their "Z Club Readers" or anybody who is in charge of reading slush? (emphasis mine)

How is Zharmae taking precautions with these Z club readers, that they don't pilfer a book off to someone else, as their novel...

Its been done before...

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What I've said can be summed up here, again, more bluntly in Thothguard's words: Zharmae is not a commercial publisher as we think of a commercial publisher. They are still a small start up with NO reputation as being trustworthy, good, or bad.

There probably isn't an overwhelming precedent in commercial publishing because the contractors of commercial publishers know not to do this.

Unvetted, amateur readers brought in out of the goodness of their hearts and their enthusiasm are a cheap way to approach slush evaluation. I'd like to think the best of them. But I know just enough about these kinds of business to know that putting temptation next to amateurs is not particularly safe. The legal liabilities alone give me a headache.

Here's how one hypothetical case might play out: an author sends a mms to Zharmae. Like most slush it's a terrible book, badly written in several ways. But there is the sparkling core of a not-bad story in there, too, or an interesting bit of worldbuilding, or a cool character. For whatever reason (the author's functional illiteracy, their Golden Word Syndrome, or their refusal or inability to work with editors), Zharmae decides not to accept the book and sends a rejection letter.

But suppose one of the 'Z Club Readers' sees that spark, and thinks 'I'm going to run with that.' If Zharmae is smart, they'll make their readers ineligible to submit mms to any branch of Zharmae. But that enterprising reader could certainly submit their version of the book - however much or little it's been altered - to another publisher.

Will Zharmae's Z Club readers have to sign waivers that hold them, not Zharmae, legally responsible in cases where there are allegations of plagiarism? How will Zhamae vet these readers, to make sure there are no cliques and reprisals of the type we've seen with the StopTheGoodreadsBullies nonsense?

New writers are terrified of having ideas stolen, which is much harder to prove. Different writers build vastly divergent stories from that same idea. But once large blocks of substantially similar text can be matched, then there's a valid case.

For the record, I'm not holding Zharmae alone accountable for coming up with this method of slush management. Several other digital publishers are playing with similar ideas, and I think it's a dangerous idea there, too.

Round Two said:

Again, my point isn't now and has never been that plagiarism doesn't exist. It is that, the idea that a slush reader at a commercial publisher has ever stolen a work that has come over the transom and then went on to sell it elsewhere as his/her own work has zero historical precedence as far as I can see.

The case you have with the newspaper is approaching that, but it is not a commercial book publisher, nor is it an entry level reader.

Out of curiosity, did the editor at the newspaper ever try to explain herself?

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It wasn't a slush reader who stole my work at that big publisher: it was an editor, who took it and gave it to another author, and encouraged that other author to write the book. I realise this isn't the same thing as a plagiariser presenting a whole novel as their own work: but that editor did present my outline and proposal as his own work, so it seems pertinent to me.

I mentioned the newspaper issue as it's the only other significant instance of plagiarism that I've been involved in, in all my thirty (THIRTY! How did that happen?) years in publishing. The editor concerned there said that she thought my piece was just notes for her to work from, and that she didn't realise it was meant to have my byline on it--even though I had correspondence and detailed notes discussing all that.

Thank goodness for good agents, I say. Without my agent at the time I wouldn't have known what to do.

To get back on topic, I could see inexperienced readers thinking they could swipe someone else's work, and without good records and checks in place it's more likely to happen at a new, inexperienced press than at a more established press. But what's going to happen next? What's the likelihood of that reader then finding a publisher willing to publish the stolen work? I suspect it's low.

Filigree said:

What I've said can be summed up here, again, more bluntly in Thothguard's words: Zharmae is not a commercial publisher as we think of a commercial publisher. They are still a small start up with NO reputation as being trustworthy, good, or bad.

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I'm not sure why the goalpost keeps moving, but this isn't about Zharmae's reputation as a commercial publisher or what its long-term viability is. If you go back through this thread, I've raised plenty of issues with their contract and standard operating procedures.

It's about one person in this thread perpetuating a, as yet, unsubstantiated myth about first readers at a publishing house "pilfering" manuscripts and passing them off as their own. A statement which included the phrase "It's been done before," but where repeated requests for an example of it happening have been met with silence and misdirection.

This isn't about general issues of plagiarism, this isn't about fan fiction authors c/p chunks of other books and trying to pass them off as their own.

It's about a very specific claim that first readers have "pilfered" submissions and passed them off as their own.

This has implications. It contributes to whisper campaigns about "facts" in the publishing industry. It casts suspicion on the entire process of submission and publication, because it's not a leap to extract from "It's happened before..." without substantiation to "it happens frequently" but with no Snopes entry to debunk it, it gets passed as gospel when it is, to the best of my knowledge and Google prowess, NOT a real thing.

Unvetted, amateur readers brought in out of the goodness of their hearts and their enthusiasm are a cheap way to approach slush evaluation. I'd like to think the best of them. But I know just enough about these kinds of business to know that putting temptation next to amateurs is not particularly safe. The legal liabilities alone give me a headache.

Here's how one hypothetical case might play out: an author sends a mms to Zharmae. Like most slush it's a terrible book, badly written in several ways. But there is the sparkling core of a not-bad story in there, too, or an interesting bit of worldbuilding, or a cool character. For whatever reason (the author's functional illiteracy, their Golden Word Syndrome, or their refusal or inability to work with editors), Zharmae decides not to accept the book and sends a rejection letter.

But suppose one of the 'Z Club Readers' sees that spark, and thinks 'I'm going to run with that.' If Zharmae is smart, they'll make their readers ineligible to submit mms to any branch of Zharmae. But that enterprising reader could certainly submit their version of the book - however much or little it's been altered - to another publisher.

Will Zharmae's Z Club readers have to sign waivers that hold them, not Zharmae, legally responsible in cases where there are allegations of plagiarism? How will Zhamae vet these readers, to make sure there are no cliques and reprisals of the type we've seen with the StopTheGoodreadsBullies nonsense?

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I'll ignore the clique and reprisals bit because it isn't germane to the original discussion.

However, you can't copyright an idea (http://www.writersdigest.com/online-editor/can-you-copyright-an-idea). So even if some first reader did what you outlined above in respect to pulling out an idea and WRITING THEIR OWN NOVEL, they still aren't doing what has been alleged to have happened before.

As far as the legal implications for Zharmae, IANAL, but I don't see how there could be any. The stealing author would have to sign a Warranty and Indemnity Clause with whoever ended up publishing the book that said he/she was providing the book free of any issues.

(boilerplate) - “The AUTHOR grants that neither the Work nor entering into this Agreement will impair or violate anyone else’s rights including but not limited to rights of privacy, rights of publicity, libel or infringement of copyright or any other rights;”

Zharmae doesn't have ANYTHING to do with that on the legal front.

New writers are terrified of having ideas stolen, which is much harder to prove. Different writers build vastly divergent stories from that same idea. But once large blocks of substantially similar text can be matched, then there's a valid case.

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New writers become more terrified when they hear "it's happened before..." on the murky subject of ideas being stolen. There's are huge degrees of separation between "different writers building vastly divergent stories from the same idea" and outright plagiarism. One relies on an author (regardless of where his/her idea came from) writing an entire, original work of fiction. The other relies on the ability to cut and paste.

There's also the fact that the person pulling something like that would in no way be able to make it through edits.

This is starting to get a bit far afield from Zharmae?

veinglory said:

This is starting to get a bit far afield from Zharmae?

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Agreed... More to the point; does anyone have knowledge (first-hand preferably) as to how well (or not) Zharmae is currently doing?

A number of us are watching this start-up with considerable interest, so you probably know what data is pertinent to our members...

No firsthand knowledge, but it would appear they remain undercapitalized and staffed by people with little to no experience in the publishing industry based on their plan to have strangers read the slushpile for them. Don't know if the contract issues have been fixed.

ironmikezero said:

Agreed... More to the point; does anyone have knowledge (first-hand preferably) as to how well (or not) Zharmae is currently doing?

A number of us are watching this start-up with considerable interest, so you probably know what data is pertinent to our members...

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What is it about Zharmae which you think warrants such interest?

All I see is a publisher with no reliable experience in the business, doing things in ways which are sending up several red flags.

ironmikezero said:

Agreed... More to the point; does anyone have knowledge (first-hand preferably) as to how well (or not) Zharmae is currently doing?

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I did a spot-check of their Amazon rankings a few weeks ago, and the results were not encouraging. Obviously Amazon isn't the be-all and end-all--but it's a strong indicator of sales for small digital publishers, given that Kindle dominates the ebook market.

- Victoria

This thread was started in 20011.

The zharmae.com domain was registered in late 2010.

Three years is not a "start up."

Old Hack said:

What is it about Zharmae which you think warrants such interest?

All I see is a publisher with no reliable experience in the business, doing things in ways which are sending up several red flags.

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Ah, I don't disagree... However, I do find it interesting, with tongue firmly in cheek, to watch this "new business model" try to make headway in the often unforgiving and turbulent seas of publishing. This publishing endeavor seems to aspire to much; but the list of achievements is fuzzy at best. Can they withstand the inevitable squalls of an erratic economy and establish a profitable beachhead despite the odds? Will this underfunded underdog merely tread water, or ultimately persevere and change the face of publishing as we know it? Or is the inherent design of the company hull fatally flawed, intrinsically compromised and taking on water? Can we tear our eyes from a capsizing tragedy and pray for survivors? OTOH, maybe they can swim...

Well, we shall see... ('sorry, got a little carried away there...)