Historical Fiction Market

Back too far, Yikes!!!

ElaineA said:

I happen to be familiar with a HF author whose agent subbed her Egypt-set book here in the US and received a thanks-no-thanks, and what I considered odd feedback related to the time period and storyline. (Biblical period without being Biblical was a no-go. ) Even though mine's romance, I've gotten feedback that Pompeii is "too far back in time."

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I am shaking my head. Somebody must of slept through World History class. How can Roman times be back too far? A whole bunch of really cool stuff happened before they took over for a while.

Where does that leave us? I have written a 2 vol. Prehistoric probability ready or not, coming of age adventure story. Everything in the three cultures depicted was documented by some anthropologist, paleontologist or museum curator. So not even speculation anymore. The characters are fiction but everything else in their world is time appropriate. There does not appear to be a sub-genre slot anywhere Yet these stories have been popular since Victorian times.

If you have a minute I would like to hear your opinion. If not, thanks for letting me take part.

Cathryn said:

I am shaking my head. Somebody must of slept through World History class. How can Roman times be back too far? A whole bunch of really cool stuff happened before they took over for a while.

Where does that leave us? I have written a 2 vol. Prehistoric probability ready or not, coming of age adventure story. Everything in the three cultures depicted was documented by some anthropologist, paleontologist or museum curator. So not even speculation anymore. The characters are fiction but everything else in their world is time appropriate. There does not appear to be a sub-genre slot anywhere Yet these stories have been popular since Victorian times.

If you have a minute I would like to hear your opinion. If not, thanks for letting me take part.

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The key word is romance. Outside of Harlequin Historical, Big Five romance publishers rarely delve outside of Regency, Victorian, Scottish and Western settings. The readership just isn't there in significant numbers for NY to feel enthusiastic about investing in historical romance in other settings/eras.

gothicangel said:

A few months ago I read an interview by Christian Cameron who said the market for HF in the US was very tough, and that Europe and the UK was much more vibrant.

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ElaineA said:

I happen to be familiar with a HF author whose agent subbed her Egypt-set book here in the US and received a thanks-no-thanks, and what I considered odd feedback related to the time period and storyline. (Biblical period without being Biblical was a no-go. )

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I happen to be that author whose Egyptian novel got a thanks-but-no-thanks, and the general feedback from the editor (at one of the big 5) was that HF is a hard sell in the US, and non American HF is even harder. This is also why Christian Cameron's ancient Greek HF never found a publisher in the states, whereas his mediaeval and fantasy books are selling pretty well over there.

mayqueen said:

This is sort of what I'm thinking is the path forward for me. My first MS was a historical thriller and it got the best response rate.

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One of the UK publishers my agent subbed to passed on my book precisely because it was a thriller - according to them, thrillers are on the wane. (This was a big 5 publisher)

Versailles said:

Flicka: My agent said the UK market was toughest, "the Brits have really high standards for their hist fic", which is interesting but also a little bizarre / insulting to us North Americans!

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An agent I subbed to long ago, before I secured rep, said the same thing. The UK market for HF is much more demanding in terms of historical authenticity and complexity - she said she would need my book to be 'high concept' to even stand a chance. I saw her point, rewrote it, and got an agent based on three chapters and a synopsis before it was even written. Fwiw, my agent also thinks that US publishers insult US readers by assuming there's no market for complex, high concept historical fiction. But there is some truth in the comment that the market is often dictated by what is being published, not the other way round.

History_Chick said:

I think a big name author needs to pave the way and then you will see more American HF stories. I know that Michelle Moran wrote a book set in Egypt during the Tudor craze and it led to other Egyptian stuff that wasn't seen as hot, but it now gets published.

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I think Michelle Moran was more of a blip than the start of a trend - believe me, I scour bookshops and the internet for Egyptian HF, and it really isn't very common at all. There's a lot more being self pubbed than there is being put out by trade publishers. But here's hoping that I'll be the one to revive the genre

Lil said:

Every trend starts with a really good book that surprises everyone (put out by a publisher who was willing to take a chance on it).

Write the book you really want to write. Better to start the trend than trail behind the trend that died.

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I really want to agree with you on this...BUT...it's a bummer when you write the book you really want to write and agents won't accept it.

Been there, done that, self-published the book of my heart.

typical rejections

I am convinced we all have had more than a few rejections that began with:

1. "The current market dictates ...."

2. "No one is interested in ...." Fill in with the century/era of your historical.

Kallithrix said:

An agent I subbed to long ago, before I secured rep, said the same thing. The UK market for HF is much more demanding in terms of historical authenticity and complexity - she said she would need my book to be 'high concept' to even stand a chance.

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Now my brain went into freeze mode and I'm completely doubting my whole story because it doesn't have enough "high concept". Authenticity I am prepared for, complexity... Dunno. High concept? Gah.

Flicka said:

Now my brain went into freeze mode and I'm completely doubting my whole story because it doesn't have enough "high concept". Authenticity I am prepared for, complexity... Dunno. High concept? Gah.

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Well, my understanding of high concept is really just a story that can be sold on a hooky premise. The agent's concept of this for HF seemed to be 'something with a famous historical figure or event, something that will attract attention because of it's familiarity as much as its uniqueness' - she mentioned that Egyptian HF tends to stick to well known figures like Rameses, Cleopatra, Hapshetsut, because people will recognise those names enough to pique their interest if they see it on the shelf. Whereas my novel was merely set in Egypt, but revolved around 100% original characters.

So I kept all the characters, turned the main plot into a subplot, and came up with a new 'high concept' main plot - basically by posing a 'what if?'

What if not all the Hebrews left Egypt during Exodus? What tension would that cause in a devastated post-plagues Egypt? And what if some years later, the sole Egyptian survivor of the red sea disaster sought revenge?

Although this has now thrown up an unexpected problem, which is that apparently readers (specifically American ones) don't go for Biblical history that isn't religious...

My sense is that the US market for historical mysteries/thrillers is stronger than the US market for historical not-mysteries/not-thrillers (general historical fiction). And my sense as well from what I've read of Moran's work is that it fits more of the Philippa Gregory model of what I would call historical women's fiction. I think that is more popular in the US market, too.

Evangeline said:

The key word is romance. Outside of Harlequin Historical, Big Five romance publishers rarely delve outside of Regency, Victorian, Scottish and Western settings. The readership just isn't there in significant numbers for NY to feel enthusiastic about investing in historical romance in other settings/eras.

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mayqueen said:

And my sense as well from what I've read of Moran's work is that it fits more of the Philippa Gregory model of what I would call historical women's fiction. I think that is more popular in the US market, too.

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And, for example, Kate Quinn's Rome-set stories can be sold in a way very similar to Diana Gabaldon's. They are definitely romances, but they are also "something else," so we focus on the "something else." I don't want to believe the readership is lacking so much as someone thinking--as has been said here--we 'Merican's can't do history. It's a bummer if it's true.

Kallithrix said:

Well, my understanding of high concept is really just a story that can be sold on a hooky premise. The agent's concept of this for HF seemed to be 'something with a famous historical figure or event, something that will attract attention because of it's familiarity as much as its uniqueness' - she mentioned that Egyptian HF tends to stick to well known figures like Rameses, Cleopatra, Hapshetsut, because people will recognise those names enough to pique their interest if they see it on the shelf. Whereas my novel was merely set in Egypt, but revolved around 100% original characters.

So I kept all the characters, turned the main plot into a subplot, and came up with a new 'high concept' main plot - basically by posing a 'what if?'

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Darn you, now you've had me rethink the whole plot! No doubt it'll make for a much better book with a much better concept, but I have to start over!

Still not sure it counts as high concept at all, but it's a very interesting and rather unexpected "what if" angle on history that isn't at all unlikely ("filling in the gaps" here), and that creates much, much higher stakes for everyone. But also more work for me.

Still, better now than later!

Kallithrix said:

Well, my understanding of high concept is really just a story that can be sold on a hooky premise. The agent's concept of this for HF seemed to be 'something with a famous historical figure or event, something that will attract attention because of it's familiarity as much as its uniqueness' - she mentioned that Egyptian HF tends to stick to well known figures like Rameses, Cleopatra, Hapshetsut, because people will recognise those names enough to pique their interest if they see it on the shelf. Whereas my novel was merely set in Egypt, but revolved around 100% original characters.

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Hence why I'm sick to death of novels written about the Julio-Claudians.

I recently read Christian Cameron's The Ill-made Knight (and attempted his fantasy series) and enjoyed it, but I enjoy his Greek HF far more (making my way through Tyrant series at the moment.)

ElaineA said:

And, for example, Kate Quinn's Rome-set stories can be sold in a way very similar to Diana Gabaldon's. They are definitely romances, but they are also "something else," so we focus on the "something else." I don't want to believe the readership is lacking so much as someone thinking--as has been said here--we 'Merican's can't do history. It's a bummer if it's true.

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Do not get me started on Kate Quinn. I read Empress of Rome last year and the book got hurled like a ballista bolt against the wall (which I shouldn't have done as it was a library book.)

Kallithrix said:

Although this has now thrown up an unexpected problem, which is that apparently readers (specifically American ones) don't go for Biblical history that isn't religious...

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Do you mean not according to Biblical sources or just religious period? Hope it's the first because I'm writing about the Babylonian captivity just prior to Cyrus the Great's invasion of Babylonia. The focus isn't religious but on the struggle of a couple of palace slaves to gain their freedom. I've used Biblical sources when dealing with the timeline and a few of the recorded events but it's not what you'd call a religious story.

Kallithrix said:

Although this has now thrown up an unexpected problem, which is that apparently readers (specifically American ones) don't go for Biblical history that isn't religious...

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This one does! I'm actually more likely to read a book set in Biblical times that doesn't have a religious tone than one with a religious tone, it's what I prefer. There was other stuff going on during that time period than just the relgious stuff, and it's all terribly interesting to boot.

I like history. I like historical novels. If they're part of a genre I'm interested in. Historic mysteries, cool, I've read some that aren't about pharaohs (Lauren Haney's 'Lt. Bak' books). Historic thrillers, cool (no name springs to mind, I wouldn't mind a series about the plots against Elizabeth I.)
I don't care what dearly beloved era it's set in, I have almost no interest in YA, romance or that awfully broad category 'women's fiction'.
The story about the Jews who stayed behind in Egypt, and the fall-out later, especially with a survivor of the Egyptian army seeking revenge, sounds fascinating. Is he after the surviving Jews, or is he after the Pharaoh? (Whichever one is in power during your story). So many people, so many motivations. Good luck with it!

ishtar'sgate said:

Do you mean not according to Biblical sources or just religious period? Hope it's the first because I'm writing about the Babylonian captivity just prior to Cyrus the Great's invasion of Babylonia. The focus isn't religious but on the struggle of a couple of palace slaves to gain their freedom. I've used Biblical sources when dealing with the timeline and a few of the recorded events but it's not what you'd call a religious story.

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I think the problem is that my book deals with a biblical event (exodus) but rationalises it by giving it natural and human causes. I've even made it so that my antag is the one who comes up with the story of Moses striking his staff on the ground and parting the red sea, trying to demonise him as a heathen sorcerer, lol. In my book, it's a tsunami caused by seismic activity that enables the Hebrews to escape. (it's been suggested that many of the plagues could have been caused by the knock on effects of the eruption of thera)

But I can imagine this would ruffle some Christian AND Jewish feathers. I think that represents quite a high proportion of the US...

frimble3 said:

I like history. I like historical novels. If they're part of a genre I'm interested in. Historic mysteries, cool, I've read some that aren't about pharaohs (Lauren Haney's 'Lt. Bak' books).

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I've read a couple of those too - mainly because I was worried that my MC is also a Medjay (the chief of police in Thebes) and I wanted to make sure that my story wasn't too similar to hers. But I think hers are very much straight crime stories, sort of like an Egyptian version of Lindsey Davis' Falco books. Also, my agent said not to worry because a) they were only published in the states and b) they're not that recent. phew!

frimble3 said:

I wouldn't mind a series about the plots against Elizabeth I.)

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Have you ever tried CJ Sansom's Shardlake series, or SJ Parris' Heresy series?

gothicangel said:

Have you ever tried CJ Sansom's Shardlake series, or SJ Parris' Heresy series?

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No, but thanks for the tip! I'll look for them.

angeliz2k said:

Ugh, well, I just saw in the bookstore that someone ELSE managed to get a book published on exactly the same topic I wrote and queried about: the Affair of the Diamond Necklace. So it's happening, and it's happening for a topic near and dear to my heart. But it's not MY book (*grumble*).

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I always have a coronary when I see a book about spies in Ancient Rome. No-one else has put 2+2 and uncovered Praetorian spies yet, closest I've seen was one book with the Frumentarii.

gothicangel said:

Do not get me started on Kate Quinn. I read Empress of Rome last year and the book got hurled like a ballista bolt against the wall (which I shouldn't have done as it was a library book.)

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Glad I'm not the only one that doesnt like her stuff. I wrote a review and got blasted for it on Amazon. Oh well.

gothicangel said:

Have you ever tried CJ Sansom's Shardlake series, or SJ Parris' Heresy series?

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Seconding the recommendation for the Shardlake series

ElaineA said:

And, for example, Kate Quinn's Rome-set stories can be sold in a way very similar to Diana Gabaldon's. They are definitely romances, but they are also "something else," so we focus on the "something else." I don't want to believe the readership is lacking so much as someone thinking--as has been said here--we 'Merican's can't do history. It's a bummer if it's true.

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US history isn't seen as glamorous as Tudor intrigue or medieval tournaments or Edwardian country houses. I also think it's easier for readers to escape into a past that isn't staring them in the face when they look up from their books (*cough* slavery, racism, genocide, antisemitism *cough*).
http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/

History_Chick said:

Oh? Who wants YA historicals cause when I go to my local book shops I cannot fine ONE HF book in the YA section, and that's what I'm writing.

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I asked Nicola Morgan about this at a webchat on another forum and she said don't forget the other places they're sold - libraries and school libraries account for a lot of sales, as well as bookshops, and also that her historicals are among her better selling YA titles.

However. My experience with subbing a YA historical was that it was a hard sell and despite my agent loving it, we didn't manage to place it in the end.

I think they're easier to sell with elements of fantasy - don't Philippa Gregory's YA historicals have those?