An interesting article about being frank concerning money and writing

KTC said:

I did say it's a very personal and individual choice...so it's only my feeling that it's horrifying. I just can't imagine ANYTHING being something that I would say "I need to do this and dedicate myself fully to it, so...hmmm...no children. They're out." It's just me...I don't expect people who choose NOT to have children to need to justify their decision.

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So I think we ARE approaching this from different directions!

I was assuming she never wanted to have kids, for a variety of reasons, more or less independently from her writing. I've never wanted kids, so for me, the default position is "no kids" and I'd need to have reasons TO have them.

But you love your kids, and for you the default position is "kids", so you see her needing reasons to NOT have them. And you're seeing writing as being her reason.

I have no idea who this author is, so I guess we don't know which perspective she was taking.

Captcha said:

So I think we ARE approaching this from different directions!

I was assuming she never wanted to have kids, for a variety of reasons, more or less independently from her writing. I've never wanted kids, so for me, the default position is "no kids" and I'd need to have reasons TO have them.

But you love your kids, and for you the default position is "kids", so you see her needing reasons to NOT have them. And you're seeing writing as being her reason.

I have no idea who this author is, so I guess we don't know which perspective she was taking.

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on one hand, I totally agree...we won't know. But on the other, it was this section I was going by:

but she thought in looking back it was her decision never to have children that had allowed her to become a true artist. If you have kids, she explained to the group of desperate nubile writers, you have to choose between them and your writing. Keep it pure. Don’t let yourself be distracted by a baby’s cry.

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Now, out of FULL context it could be that the kids weren't happening anyway...but this section, on its own, tells me she chose creativity and art over children...specifically because children would cramp her style.


ETA: "YOU HAVE TO CHOOSE BETWEEN THEM AND YOUR WRITING". That she even said that sentence shocks the everloving hell out of me.

KTC said:

ETA: "YOU HAVE TO CHOOSE BETWEEN THEM AND YOUR WRITING". That she even said that sentence shocks the everloving hell out of me.

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It does seem like a good reminder that we can't generalize our own experiences. For this author, the statement was true. Personally, the moment I heard that, I probably would have tuned the rest of it out. There are too many counterexamples out there (didn't Barbara Kingsolver write The Bean Trees when pregnant with her first?).

Personally, I don't think I would have had the discipline or structure to finally finish a novel if I hadn't had a child. I'm a wildly disorganized person by nature, but parenthood taught me in the most visceral way that sometimes Stuff Just Has To Get Done. But I wouldn't suggest to anyone that they absolutely must reproduce to write a book.

I think we've all seen aspiring authors point out this author and that author that "disproved" the idea of keeping your day job. And then we do a little digging and find out that yeah, they have a supporting partner or a part-time job or some other form of supporting themselves financially that they "forgot" to mention. It does a disservice not only to these aspiring authors but to those who have published but still can't support themselves on their writing alone. It sets up false expectations, faulty decision-making, and, for those published, negative feelings about their own writing. I don't think people have to open their bank statements, but don't lie by omission. If something other than your writing is paying the bills, don't assume people will think less of your success because of it.

I saw an interview with JK Rowling a while back in which she commented that people would ask her how on earth she managed to look after a toddler and write a book. She replied to the effect that she'd done no housework for three years........

I also chatted a convention with a published author who'd always liked writing, but had taken to doing it as she could do it around her kids - but had just an hour or two a day for writing. (Other half was the still the main breadwinner, even after she was published......) She said she made those couple of hours really count.

In general I don't find it shocking that someone said "you can either have kids or a (writing) career". It is hardly a new statement for people to be told kids or career. For some people it is true, for others it is not. As others have said, it depends on the individual as to what energises you and what exhausts you.

On the topic of disclosure and money, Kameron Hurley has a nice blog post on this today. In general, she's extremely forthcoming, both on her blog and on Twitter, about her writerly finances.

(Disclaimer: I'm tangentially acquainted with Kameron, as we share an agent.)

I was horrified by the one writer's attribution of 'because I didn't have kids' (my paraphrasing). Horrified! Not having kids allowed her to be a true artist???!!!

It was also made clear in the article that the articlewriter considered this explanation to be completely bogus. So -assuming the facts to be as presented- I wouldn't waste good horrification on it. (Thoughts about evolution in action would be unkind but forgivable.)

lizmonster said:

On the topic of disclosure and money, Kameron Hurley has a nice blog post on this today. In general, she's extremely forthcoming, both on her blog and on Twitter, about her writerly finances.

(Disclaimer: I'm tangentially acquainted with Kameron, as we share an agent.)

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That's a really interesting post, thanks for that.

I don't think such circumstances are ever a secret. The life of a writer is almost always an open book.

Nor do I see how it matters in any way. Writing is a business, but not one where what any other writer does or doesn't do makes a difference. Writing is always about the individual. It's about how much talent you have, how you develop your skill, what you do to learn the business, how smart you are, what you do to get an education, and how truly hard you work.

If you need a role model for some reason, it's more than easy to find one who was even worse off than you are now. Try Ray Bradbury. That was a humble start. Try Tom Robbins, who lived for too long off cabbages stolen from a farmer's field. Or hundreds of other writers with open book lives.

Many, many, many writers earn a very good living from writing. A surprising number of others earn millions every year.

So what difference does it make whether any writer spills his guts? I think they're being a bit egocentric if they believe what they do, or how they do it, matters when there are thousands of open book writers out there from every possible background and circumstance.

KTC said:

ETA: "YOU HAVE TO CHOOSE BETWEEN THEM AND YOUR WRITING". That she even said that sentence shocks the everloving hell out of me.

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I've had (MANY) stay-at-home mothers be equally as shocked that I would choose to go back to my career after having my son. YOU WOULD CHOOSE A JOB OVER YOUR CHILD!

Like life is a series of binary choices. Work OR Child is no different than seeing Child OR Writing as a black and white choice.

But, the truth is, something has to give.

You can't have everything. That's a simple fact of life. You cannot give 100% to the kids, 100% to your job, 100% to your volunteer efforts, 100% to housework, and 100% to writing.

If you have kids, that's one more thing you have to balance in deciding whether writing is worth your time. For some people, that's one thing too many.

I know I didn't write when my kids were younger. I fancied myself a writer, but I couldn't finish even a short story. It wasn't until they reached an age where they needed less of my time and attention that I was able to free up my mind and time for writing. And now that they're both teenagers (well, one nearly a teen) and would rather Mom just left them alone, it's much easier.

My privilege? I've got a good job that pays very well, but has regular, predictable hours, plus, occasionally sends me to locations like Ireland, Germany or Brazil where I can get new experiences to inspire me. I also have a great, supportive husband who takes on a big share of the housework and parenting duties to give me time and space to write.

What I give up? Exercise. My favorite is swimming, but between driving to the pool, the swimming time and how physically tired it makes me, I can't swim and write on the same day. I have to settle for walking the dog a few days a week. Also, I don't have a clean house. It's not a pig sty, but I just let a lot of things go. Cooking. I love to plan and cook big, elaborate dinners and I used to cook almost an hour every day. Now, if dinner can't make it to the table in 20 minutes, I'm likely to tell the kids to "fend for themselves."

If I had to work a physically demanding job, or were a single parent, or my husband weren't willing to help, I probably would never have finished a book.

Underdawg47 said:

Until we take money out of politics, nothing will change.

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Agree with the entirety of your post, but this line needs repeating.

As to the thrust of the thread, successful authors don't HAVE to do anything. They don't owe anyone the details of how they supported themselves before their writing started paying the bills. They don't have to talk about the house they inherited, or the spouse who held down a well-paying job that allowed them to pursue their writing or any art for that matter. But, it's just the fair and honest, generous thing to do. It's so easy to feel like it's only you, like there's something wrong with you, when you can't seem to pursue your dreams when financial realities have to be a priority. No, no one owes these people a shred of understanding, encouragement, or hope.

But it does make for a better world if they do it anyway.

Knowing the specifics in terms of earnings, etc, is always helpful. In general, any forthright admission a writer chooses to make is. Not to say they need to or they should. With any personal disclosure one should always ask themselves, "should I?" IMO !

Making your living as a full time writer is quite easy -- Have no expenses.

On the serious side, some people can live on $15,000 a year while others have trouble at $100,000 a year. If you're going to live off any craft or artistic endeavor, you had better be frugal.

I have an absolute bare minimum need of about $22,000 a year. I got there by selling the old expensive house and buying a place with cash, low utility costs and low taxes. No car payments, paid off credit cards and cut my food expenses by not eating out and growing my own.

That minimum means I don't get to go to writer's conferences, dinner, the movies, have cable TV or an expensive phone plan and use public internet when I can get to it. That means I'm running more like $38,000 as my minimum right now. But I used to have a minimum of just over $88,000, so it's a substantial cut.

For me, health insurance and health costs are the current budget killer. For the next decade, until I qualify for Medicare, it will be that way. I have no retirement contributions so I'll end up working the rest of my life.

These are life style choices and everyone has to make them. I'm having trouble living within my means, but I've had that problem since I was about 17 anyway. Until Clint Eastwood buys the movie rights to the novel I haven't yet finished, I'm never going to live the good life. I'll likely die pretty broke, but I can live with that.

Next month I may say "Screw it" and go back to a real job.

Jeff

Okay. I'm locking the thread for the night. We keep derailing onto this rich/poor, what's it about track, and that is not what this thread is focused on nor is it a subject for Roundtable.

Tomorrow we'll see if people still want to discuss honesty about finances and the responsibility of established writers to be open with those newer to the endeavor, about the realities of their individual circumstances.

Any conversation about the general nature of the economy and the causes of poverty will have to take place elsewhere than Roundtable.

I'm so "ashamed" to admit I actually get by on my hot body. Haha!

I've reopened the thread, moved the derail posts to TIO, and deleted my two mod notes to save some continuity here.

If you really want to discuss the wealth gap, please go start a thread about that topic in P&CE. Or continue the discussion in TIO, here.

In this thread, please discuss the content of posts, and not the individuals posting.

Thanks, and, carry on.

Ooops. NOW it's reopened. (I got distracted. My apologies.)

Maze Runner said:

But, it's just the fair and honest, generous thing to do. It's so easy to feel like it's only you, like there's something wrong with you, when you can't seem to pursue your dreams when financial realities have to be a priority. No, no one owes these people a shred of understanding, encouragement, or hope.

But it does make for a better world if they do it anyway.

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I like the word generous for that sort of decision. That's how it feels to me. I will forever be grateful for Jim Hines' frank discussions of his yearly income.They really helped me put things in perspective as I was slowly coming back to writing.

I think the argument about kids is a mountain out of a molehill thing. The person who said that didn't say it eloquently but let's be honest, kids are a frigging handful and they *do* sap a ton of energy and time from a person.

Heck, I'm a full time novelist and my dog has to go to daycare a couple times a week just so I can focus better.

What's the big deal?

It's be nice if we could discuss people's highly personal reproductive choices/circumstances without using the word 'horrifying' at all. But maybe that's just me.


I have a stable and secure career that pays more than adequately for me to support myself and indulge my interests (which don't include kids, FWIW). The downside is the time I lose: I work 10-12 hour shifts, often at ungodly hours -- I'm posting this from work, where it's 3.30 am. It's a struggle to find the time to write, some days.

You know what? I write far more now than I did when I was unemployed and facing money worries, amotivation and depression. Despite having all the time in the world then, it was rare that I could sit down and actually concentrate on writing, when it all seemed so pointless. I don't know about a lot of writing advice, but 'look after your own wellbeing first' seems like it should be printed on the front of the welcome pack.

Robert Dawson said:

(Thoughts about evolution in action would be unkind but forgivable.)

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What thoughts would those be?

Being a parent is too important a duty to saddle upon people who don't want to commit to it. There are few things as evil (that an otherwise good-hearted person can do by accident) as bringing a child into the world that you can't support emotionally and/or financially. No child should be sentenced to privation or loneliness; every child should be wanted and nurtured.

I don't care what reason a person has for not wanting to be a parent; they should get no push-back from anyone regarding that decision.

I liked the article, though I do think the author was imputing motives to the writer who spoke about choosing not to have kids that she had no way of knowing. (Namely, she seems to suggest the privileged writer actually mentioned her decision not to reproduce as a disingenuous way of making it seem like she, too, has made sacrifices and is not privileged. Which may or may not be true. It's this writer's interpretation of an admittedly weird statement.)

I live in a place frequented by creative people with trust funds. Incomes here are low, yet cost of living is high, because a lot of people come here from lucrative big-city jobs to raise their kids. So when I profile someone doing bizarre art or starting a niche business, I often find myself wondering where the money comes from. Inheritance? A spouse who still commutes or telecommutes to the city job? Working five crappy local jobs at once to support the passion project? I can't help it; I think that's part of the story. I want to know.

Of course these people have no obligation to tell anyone, and because we have a taboo against frankly discussing our incomes in the U.S., I certainly don't blame them. But this is why I really appreciate those writers who do blog candidly about their incomes. It makes me feel better about where I'm at while keeping my expectations realistic. We all hear about the writer with a seven-figure advance, but we may not hear so much about the midlister who's steadily making more each year while keeping the day job.

I was raised to believe that you should pursue art for the love of it without concerning yourself about money, and that talking about money was vulgar, but I haven't found that attitude to be realistic or useful. It may have made sense in my parents' time, less so now.

Fuchsia Groan said:

I was raised to believe that you should pursue art for the love of it without concerning yourself about money, and that talking about money was vulgar, but I haven't found that attitude to be realistic or useful. It may have made sense in my parents' time, less so now.

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I think it makes sense for rich people, those who can AFFORD to pursue art for the love of it. For the rest of us? Money matters, and talking about it makes it a lot easier to make wise decisions.

Fuchsia Groan said:

I was raised to believe that you should pursue art for the love of it without concerning yourself about money...

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Same here, and I'd like to think that pursuing something because it's what you love doing, and doing it for the love rather than the money

DOES NOT

preclude being paid for creating something that makes people happy.


i.e. the idea of artistic integrity does not stand in opposition to the principle of not stealing shit via the internet.

jjdebenedictis said:

Being a parent is too important a duty to saddle upon people who don't want to commit to it. There are few things as evil (that an otherwise good-hearted person can do by accident) as bringing a child into the world that you can't support emotionally and/or financially. No child should be sentenced to privation or loneliness; every child should be wanted and nurtured.

I don't care what reason a person has for not wanting to be a parent; they should get no push-back from anyone regarding that decision.

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*hands custody of the Shared Brain to JJ this week*