An interesting article about being frank concerning money and writing

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Mr Flibble

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I think the horrifying part to me is not that one particular woman chose not to have kids to concentrate on her career -- everyone gets to make their own choices.

It's the continuing bollocks narrative of you can't be female, and have both kids and a career. Why in hell not? Men do. I do, in part because my Old Man has done as much childcare as I have. Like the rest of our life, we split things equally. The only reason that a woman might have trouble carving a career at the same time as having kids is because the father isn't pulling his weight. OK, there might be others - I imagine being a miner while pregnant would be a worry. But writing? It's not like there's any heavy lifting involved.

ETA: Even if the parents are split up, a father or non primary guardian can still pull their weight. Maybe in time, maybe in money so the primary can get some childcare. Something.
 
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bearilou

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I suppose what's bothering me in this entire thing is that the choice to be childfree has to come with some reason as to why that choice was made. And when the reason is given, it's now a free-for-all to dissect why and how it was a lousy/bad/horrifying reason. Followed by repeated commentary about how they just don't understand why someone would choose to be. Other people can do it. Why can't you?

After a while, childfree people get tired of (the expectation of) defending their choice and grab for the easiest (but perhaps not the true representation) explanation just to get people off their back.
 
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Mr Flibble

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I don't think you need a reason to be child free. Each person gets to make their own choices re kids.

I just get annoyed when people say you have to choose, career or kids, if you are female. You shouldn't have to, not if you want both. It might be harder but...men don't have to choose one or the other. So why should I? I don't as it happens. But the bollocks continues to be said.

Bah!
 

lizmonster

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Same here, and I'd like to think that pursuing something because it's what you love doing, and doing it for the love rather than the money

DOES NOT

preclude being paid for creating something that makes people happy.


i.e. the idea of artistic integrity does not stand in opposition to the principle of not stealing shit via the internet.

My mom was an attorney before she retired. She doesn't have a lot of sympathy for illegal downloading, and she's driven that bright line into my head.

I've downloaded TV shows that weren't available for viewing or purchase in the US. This is stealing. I bought the DVDs as soon as they became available, even if I didn't like the shows - but it was still stealing. I don't do it anymore. I don't draw the line so strongly that I would report other people doing the same thing - but I, personally, feel too guilty.
 

lizmonster

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I don't think you need a reason to be child free. Each person gets to make their own choices re kids.

I just get annoyed when people say you have to choose, career or kids, if you are female. You shouldn't have to, not if you want both. It might be harder but...men don't have to choose one or the other. So why should I? I don't as it happens. But the bollocks continues to be said.

Bah!

This.

There are plenty of people in my extended family who have deliberately not had children, so to me it's a) perfectly normal for people not to have kids; and b) nobody's business why. What bothers me is that nobody ever suggests that men have to choose between children and everything else that matters to them.

Note I don't think anyone on this thread is saying that. But I do want to be clear that my reaction to the comment is not that the author in question was advocating not having children, just that she (as quoted) was suggesting that the choice was children OR creativity.
 

heza

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Mr Fibble said:
I just get annoyed when people say you have to choose, career or kids, if you are female. You shouldn't have to, not if you want both. It might be harder but...men don't have to choose one or the other. So why should I? I don't as it happens. But the bollocks continues to be said.

I think that some women can rightly say that they aren't capable of diligently pursuing a dream and raising a family, regardless of whether they would have the father's help. Some women can do that. Some women can do it as single mothers on low incomes. But some women who don't even have to hold a job still can't. We're all different. We all have different constitutions for this kind of thing.

So I don't fault the author for saying that she had to choose between children and writing. She very well may have. Even with her connections in the industry, she might have known that she wasn't capable of doing both, of spreading herself out that way. What I disagree with is where she went on to say that the general "You" has to choose between them. No one else actually has to make that choice, as evidenced by plenty of writer-mothers in the world.


With that said, though, I don't want anyone to think that I disagree with the sentiments everyone's been making about this. I kind of feel like we're starting to discuss something else—and it's a conversation that I totally think needs to be had and that we need to keep having until reality has improved. In our society, the burden of childcare has traditionally fallen on the mother. This has resulted in a lot of bad things:


  • Some fathers do not step up and take care of their half of child rearing in a two-income household, making it the default condition that the mother respond to all childcare needs.
  • In the wake of all of the wonderful liberties we've won, women are now expected to "do it all," by society at large and by other working mothers. This can be overwhelming and pull women who can't keep up with the demands in two directions. It's a terrible emotional strain.
  • Women, being the primary caregivers, are often penalized in the workplace (sometimes, preemptively in the form of pay or promotions) for having to take time off or rearrange schedules to handle sick children or school matters.
  • Men, on the other hand, while paid and promoted more, are not given the same leeway with regard to handling issues with their children during work hours.
  • Men don't always get the same consideration for leave time when a child is born.
  • Courts heavily favor mothers (as the traditional primary caregiver) over the father in custody matters, sometimes to the detriment of the child.
  • Men who do step into the primary caregiver role are sometimes judged "unmanly" by their peers and may feel a sense of personal failure in not being the provider.

All of these things are bad and they all stem from the idea that caring for children is "women's work," and it's a notion we need to change in our culture.
 
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Hapax Legomenon

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My mom was an attorney before she retired. She doesn't have a lot of sympathy for illegal downloading, and she's driven that bright line into my head.

I've downloaded TV shows that weren't available for viewing or purchase in the US. This is stealing. I bought the DVDs as soon as they became available, even if I didn't like the shows - but it was still stealing. I don't do it anymore. I don't draw the line so strongly that I would report other people doing the same thing - but I, personally, feel too guilty.

Well the thing is that reporting doesn't really do much good, especially if the people are not the uploaders.

I think the whole kids vs career thing comes from that many women are exposed to many men who absolutely won't pitch in with child care or housework, in which case, it really does become a choice unless you can hire a nanny and maid to do all of it. You can't assume that every woman has a cooperative spouse.
 

Mr Flibble

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You can't assume that every woman has a cooperative spouse.

Sadly no. But there's the thing. Some women will have to choose purely because the man can't be arsed. And society isn't going to tell him he has to choose, or step up.

And that grinds my bloody gears. I'm bloody lucky because I found a guy who thinks child rearing is an equal responsibility (We are still getting to grips with the flow of washing :D). How many fabulous creators/solicitors/politicians/whatever have been lost because the father of their children thinks she should do everything because "women's work"? How many more will we lose, even though things are supposed to have changed?

Excuse me while I go and mutter to myself about torches and pitchforks in the corner
 

shadowwalker

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On the subject of uncooperative partners, isn't that something that should be discussed/known before the partnership is finalized? Before the children come along? In an ideal world, I guess. Too many people - men and women - make assumptions about who's going to deal with the kids, who's going to be the main "breadwinner", etc etc, and then, when it's pretty much too late, the facts hit home.
 

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As to the original subject of the OP, I don't think authors should feel any obligation to expose their income or the circumstances of their private lives that enable them to write. I really don't think that's anyone's business.

But I don't think authors should lie or misrepresent their reality to other fledgling writers when asked. They should either be candid or simply decline answering.

I do sympathize, though, with authors who might misrepresent themselves. I feel like there can be a pretty strong sense of judgement (or "sour grapes" attitude) for authors who become successful.

I see it in cases like this where, even though the upfront objection is to the misrepresentation itself, there's still an undercurrent of "see, you only succeeded because you're a trust fund baby," or "well, few writers have the connections you do so they actually have to work at being published."

I got a sense of it a while back when I saw discussions about JK Rowling having published under the name Galbraith and some people were expressing the sentiment that they thought it was nice she wasn't trying to ride her Harry Potter fame to sell her books, as if that would have made her less deserving of any new success.

So I don't agree with people misrepresenting, but I can understand why they might.

But this idea that if you didn't do it the way I did it, then you did it wrong or easier or unfairly, isn't limited to the publishing field. I think it's just a part of human nature to belittle accomplishments of someone who you think had an advantage you didn't. We want to blame our own failure on outside circumstances. I think it's also human nature to want to downplay circumstances you think others might use to discredit your efforts, too, though.


Having never been offered a publishing contract, I wanted to ask those in the know if there's any language in the contract that forbids an author from discussing their compensation. When I started my internship in college, I was all about asking the "adults" at my company what their career path had been like and what their salaries had been at various stages. That was really rude of me, but in my head, a candid discussion about things like would have made my future planning a lot easier—like which direction in my field I wanted to take, what furthering education I wanted to sign up for, etc. But I was told that employees were contractually obligated to not disclose their pay rates to other employees, and I wonder if it's the same with some publishers.... or is all of that public record?
 

CrastersBabies

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It's extremely difficult, especially for women (imho). Women are often the default housekeeper, the default parent, the default chef and errand-person. My writing has suffered tremendously because of this. And most of the time, my husband simply doesn't get it.

We both work and I'm in school full time. Yet, he gets to punch out at the end of the day and I'm just starting on household tasks.

"Just ask for help," is his response.

Of course it is. When was the last time he heard me say, "Okay, let me know if you need help."

His first response would be, "Uhh, with what?"

Gender gaps for the lose. Still prevalent.

I don't have any illusions about making lots of money--hence why I'm working toward a degree that will help me get a good-paying, stable job. Honestly? My dream is that by the time I retire, my writing career will then begin to take off and I can spend the last 20-30 years of my life doing what I love.
 
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shadowwalker

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Everywhere I've worked, it's been always been taboo to discuss salaries or raises. Mainly to keep dissatisfaction down. A lot of people don't understand that the pay is based on two things - the importance of the position to the company, and the quality of the work the individual does. It became of a matter of comparing apples to oranges, and apples wanting to be treated like oranges.

In the case of writers, if they're bragging about being able to quit the day job, or if others are using them to bolster their own decisions, I think any "qualifiers" are fair game.
 

Hapax Legomenon

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The influence goes far beyond the individual husband in question. It goes to who his parents were, who the wife's parents were, their peers and community, etc., on who will actually do housework. It's more complicated than "ask before you get married."
 
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