The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

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Diana Hignutt

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Comparison of between PA and a Small Press-Part 1

With my PA book I got:

-Editing: a quick touch-up, with a few typo's and errors added for good measure by recent college graduates with no editing experience. I had two weeks to go over all the changes (actually it was five days--I was away on vacation when they orginally sent my "proofs").

With my Small Press pubbed book:

-Editing: Compete developmental editing with a back and forth effort working with an experienced professional editor who is a college professor of English with a MFA from Goddard. This process took about three months. Then came the copy editing phase where I was given all the time I needed to go over the suggested changes. Then came the proof phase where I had as much time as I needed.

****

With PA:

-Production: POD, however you want to spell it.

With Small Press:

-Production: Initial print run in the hundreds, digital. Second print run in the thousands, offset. Gee, I guess they want to sell my book or something.

****

With PA:

-Review Copies: None sent by PA. I had to buy and send my own, of course, no major reviewer will even consider a POD book sent for consideration after the release date, but no one told me at the time...

With my Small Press pubbed book:

-Review Copies: Dozens sent, three and a half months in advance, to the major reviewers, local media, chainstore buyers, some bookstores, online reviewers...among the reviews they got for me: Publishers Weekly: "commendably brisk...superior fantasy fiction...workmanlike"

****

With PA:

-Marketing: Listed book with Ingram, Baker & Taylor and Bowker-this automatically lists your book with the online stores. A direct mailing to my friends and relatives--whose names I was asked to provide. All other efforts must come from the author.

With Small Press:

-Marketing: Obviously they listed the book as above. Sent review copies (see above), catalogs featuring my book, works to get my books stocked by bookstores, arranges book signings for me, advertises with trade publications and pubs directed at readers. Etc. (I'll add to this later-I'm still tired)

****

With PA:

-Responsiveness: Ignores emails, or replies harshly and abusively. Ignores correspondence from my attorney.

With Small Press:

-Responsiveness: Immediate, either by email or telephone. A true pleasure to work with. They clearly care about me and my work.

More to come--I've got to go mow the law and work in my garden, and then some writing...

diana
 

Christine N.

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Oh, Anne, I didn't mean anything by that remark. I was just answering to that ludicrious statment. I was ranting. Of course you don't have to be a writer to know what you like to read, or be published to have an opinion. LOL.

I also have to apologize for wanting to throttle Pierette. I understand where she's coming from. She wrote a book about her family, had it published and is happy with that. Period. She has no aspirations of being a writer, I don't think. She could have gotten the same thing from Lulu, but that's neither here nor there. My problem comes when she tries to force that on everyone. "Just be happy - I am" is what gets my goat.

Some people really wanna be writers and make a living (or at least a decent second income) at it. She doesn't get it.
 

Jeff

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Re: PA Threads

I do not often get angry at PA authors, but there are times...

It is amazing to read the amount of misinformation spouted off in those threads, some of it from "multi-published" authors. I would be interested to see just one of these "multi-published" authors leave the protected/cowardly confines of the PA boards and come to a place like AW where they would have to honestly defend their words while amongst their peers.

Yeah.

Like that will ever happen.
 

SeanDSchaffer

Jeff said:
I do not often get angry at PA authors, but there are times...

It is amazing to read the amount of misinformation spouted off in those threads, some of it from "multi-published" authors. I would be interested to see just one of these "multi-published" authors leave the protected/cowardly confines of the PA boards and come to a place like AW where they would have to honestly defend their words while amongst their peers.

Yeah.

Like that will ever happen.


Actually Jeff, I think that did happen once or twice -- I'm not sure whether on this board or the old EZBoards. But I seem to remember He Who Shall Not Be Named having done just such a thing a couple of times on the AW forums back in the days of my occasional lurking here. I believe it was about a year ago, although my memory of it is somewhat vague and the time frame I've given could be somewhat off. But it was somewhere around the same time one of the infamous Guestbook Slammers was hitting my site pretty hard, so I tend to think it was about a year ago.

However, to my knowledge he's the only author published more than once through PA who ever came here and defended either PA or his own personal antics, so I can definitely see what you're saying and where you're coming from.

Btw, please forgive me for my ramblings. I'm very tired right now, and I still have a job over at a friend's place later today, so I won't be sleeping for quite a while yet. That's why I'm not talking exactly as clear as I usually do.


Talk to you later.
 

Ed Williams

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Wow, I was away pretty much all day yesterday...

...and my heart was both broken and warmed at the same time!

Per Jenna:

Gherkin, if you don't get to be The Pickler's sidekick, you can be my cabana boy. :)
Jenna, you promised me I could give you towels out by the pool, I'm crushed! Doesn't pay to be a trusting, naive, Juliette country boy, I see. I will go balm my pain with a box of Krispy Kremes...

After further collecting myself, I take a stroll over in the Great and Mighty Land of Poz and find the following:

Why bother with them! Most of the bashers I have heard on other websites or in E-groups have not been published in any form, as novelist. They read the same things we read and don't look to see that a vanity/subsidy press is owner of the site or group.
Ah, deluding yourself re the realities involved is one of your publisher's stock ploys, my friend. It'd be too depressing to look into it and find out the truth, no?

Another deluded poster deduced the following:

The motivation for bashing is always the same, "jealousy". What else would it be? If we were bad authors and PA was a publisher of bad books, then we would simply dissolve and no one would even notice.
Friend, if we were all truly jealous, we'd love PA. Think about it, if we wanted to keep "traditional publishers" to ourselves, we be urging people to go over to PA. It'd reduce our "competition," you see....

A sad posting reveals this:

Yesterday, I asked a reviewer to review my work. This was just a place I'd found online through a self-publishing group i belong to. The response I got was not only mean, but completely uncalled for. It's the first time I've been bashed for my choice of publisher (and I'm very happy with my publisher, by the way) and I have to say it stung.It wasn't the way I wanted to start my day.
The unfortunate thing here is, get ready for more of the same. Anytime you contact a bookstore manager, a reviewer, or anyone else in the legitimate publishing world, you can expect more along these same lines. That's sad beyond words, I guess PA doesn't discuss this aspect of their business when they're busy signing up new authors.

And in the, "I don't even know what to say category," we have this:

You know I never understand why people need to have their books critiqued by a stranger. I have found that after our books are out, your friends on the board will most likely will give you , a friendly and gratifying one. If you look on Amazon and other places, every P.A author there has reviews that are done by their family and friends, as I and others have.
Folks, I heard from the owner of Mulligan's in Atlanta, I am going up next weekend to have my first ever hamdog! And a Luther burger! I'm tellin' y'all, the perks that come from writing are just unbelievable!
 
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Sassenach

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Christine N. said:
I also have to apologize for wanting to throttle Pierette. I understand where she's coming from. She wrote a book about her family, had it published and is happy with that. Period. She has no aspirations of being a writer, I don't think. She could have gotten the same thing from Lulu, but that's neither here nor there. My problem comes when she tries to force that on everyone. "Just be happy - I am" is what gets my goat.

.

You needn't apologize to me. She's astonishingly annoying and a textbook example of passive/aggressive.
 

Sher2

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Ed Williams said:
I will go balm my pain with a box of Krispy Kremes...
Trust me, Ed, Krispy Kremes will get the job done for you. :D

Ah, deluding yourself re the realities involved is one of your publisher's stock ploys, my friend. It'd be too depressing to look into it and find out the truth, no?

Another deluded poster deduced the following:

Friend, if we were all truly jealous, we'd love PA. Think about it, if we wanted to keep "traditional publishers" to ourselves, we be urging people to go over to PA. It'd reduce our "competition," you see....

A sad posting reveals this:

The unfortunate thing here is, get ready for more of the same. Anytime you contact a bookstore manager, a reviewer, or anyone else in the legitimate publishing world, you can expect more along these same lines. That's sad beyond words, I guess PA doesn't discuss this aspect of their business when they're busy signing up new authors.

Delusion, redux. Alas, there's a fresh crop of newbies just now starting to get a whiff of which way the wind blows. Six months from now, I guarantee you they'll no longer suffer from the delusion that anyone is jealous of their "PA success story." Unfortunately, there'll be a brand new field of marks by then. It's a vicious cycle that won't stop 'til somebody cuts the head off the snake.
Folks, I heard from the owner of Mulligan's in Atlanta, I am going up next weekend to have my first ever hamdog! And a Luther burger! I'm tellin' y'all, the perks that come from writing are just unbelievable!
You gon' get fat, boy! :poke:
 

Literary Lola

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JohnGalt said:
This just dawned on me: There is a good chance that PA is using unlicensed art for its covers. I searched both Getty and Corbis for the turtleneck guy they use so frequently, but (to my surprise) I couldn't find him.

It costs my company between 80 and 150 bucks every time we use a royalty-free photo on one of our websites. The fees for print-quality graphics would be even higher.

I seriously doubt that PA is spending hundreds of dollars per book to license the art for its covers. If any of you are bored, do this:
1) Find identifiable features in PA covers, such as a man in a turtleneck
2) Search for these features at www.corbis.com, www.gettyimages.com, and http://www.google.com/imghp
3) Try to find the stock art they used/stole
4) Let us know if you find something interesting

If any of you know of other major sources of stock photography, please tell the board. If we can locate the source, and if it turns out that PA is not properly licensing the images it uses for its cover "art," things could get interesting.

- JG
PerishableAuthors would never spend that kind of money. They'd either rip it off like they did on that one cover of Lord of the Rings, or they might try iStockphoto. They have a lot of royalty-free stuff and their prices are extremely cheap for the royalty artwork.
 

AnneMarble

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Christine N. said:
Oh, Anne, I didn't mean anything by that remark. I was just answering to that ludicrious statment. I was ranting. Of course you don't have to be a writer to know what you like to read, or be published to have an opinion. LOL.

OH, I know you know better. I was commenting more on the PA authors in that thread who seem to think that unpublished authors (or in my case, unpublished novelists :D ) can't comment on their books. The joys of oversnipping. The joys of communication. I are a writer, honest.
:Smack:

Christine N. said:
I also have to apologize for wanting to throttle Pierette. I understand where she's coming from. She wrote a book about her family, had it published and is happy with that. Period. She has no aspirations of being a writer, I don't think. She could have gotten the same thing from Lulu, but that's neither here nor there. My problem comes when she tries to force that on everyone. "Just be happy - I am" is what gets my goat.

Some people really wanna be writers and make a living (or at least a decent second income) at it. She doesn't get it.

I think writing is unusual because in the past, no one accepted the idea of writing as a hobby, although there were plenty of people who did so. You either wrote and got published, or you didn't get published, and people asked why you weren't published yet. There are countless people who sing and paint and do crafts for the shear joy of it, and no one ever asks them when they're going to turn pro. But now, with the advent of POD (and POD), people who have written as a hobby can now publish their books, sometimes with no apparent upfront expense.

I guess some of them now believe that's it and that publishing is supposed to be like this for everyone. When other writers get upset about the way they are treated, some of these other writers shrug because they're perfectly happy, and they see the others as whiners and bashers. I'm not sure if it applies to other hobbies. Most people who, let's say, sing as a hobby realize that while they do it as a hobby, there are plenty of people who do it for a living. I can't imagine that they would get upset if someone were angry because they were screwed over by a company or because their singing career were stalled after being scammed.

Or maybe I'm wrong. I dunno.
:Shrug:
 

Ed Williams

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The "I'm entitled to be published"...

...mantra is one that PA (and some other POD publishers) promote to its fullest. All it ends up doing is creating two categories of book writers - those who get books printed, and those who get them published. Sad to say, but true.

Life does not appear to be real grand over in the Great and Mighty Land of Poz these days, does it? I'm still quite heartbroken over Jenna discarding me like a used Krispy Kreme box, oh the pain, the pain! I may become a monk if this sort of thing keeps up...
 

lindylou45

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WhisperingBard said:
My friend,

Writers write: it's good for the soul.

When was the last time you wrote something new?

In the midst of all the turmoil, and the angst, and the battling of great evil in this fight against PA, don't lose sight of yourself and your writing.

Yes, fight the battle, but keep writing.

Get your anger out, but keep writing.

Enjoy the laughter and fun times at AW, but keep writing.

PA took your book, not your talent. Use that talent. Celebrate it. Get it out there for the world to see.

Because if you don't, not only will they have taken your book, they'll have taken your voice.

Not only will they have wounded your pride, they'll have killed your spirit.

Please don't let that happen. I care about you.

You started out with a dream. Though it may be a bit worse for wear, it's still a dream worth pursuing.

Writers write. And you're a writer, aren't you?

When was the last time you wrote something new?

That's beautiful, Cia. You are an exceptional person and we are all blessed to know you. :Hug2:
 

Sher2

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Ed Williams said:
...mantra is one that PA (and some other POD publishers) promote to its fullest. All it ends up doing is creating two categories of book writers - those who get books printed, and those who get them published. Sad to say, but true.

Life does not appear to be real grand over in the Great and Mighty Land of Poz these days, does it? I'm still quite heartbroken over Jenna discarding me like a used Krispy Kreme box, oh the pain, the pain! I may become a monk if this sort of thing keeps up...
Life is downright dismal in the Merry Olde Land of Poz by the looks of things. 'Tis the return of the Dark Ages. There is poverty and gloom, a decided dearth of letters, disease -- a pox on every house -- and famine runs rampant in the streets. There be monsters everywhere, and the dragonslayer is dead and reeking. And now, there be Crusaders at the gates, questing for the Grail and three heads on pikes. Yon coming days shall be the blackest of the black, and an itinerant monk could be a welcome sight to the huddled masses. Although ... they are starving. If you see a big pot, run.
 

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I almost forgot to tell you how cooperative PA was with my contract. I just couldn't believe how wonderful they were. I told them I wanted to be sure that I had the right to put my book in a downloadable e-book form on my website to help me get more sales and I'd had several people look over the contract and we could see no where in the contract that forbids this. So to further help me they told me that I didn't have that write by the original contract and they so nicely sent an ammendment to the contract so I could just blindly sign the darn thing and get it lickity split right back to them. NOT.............It wrapped up any web or electronic rights up big time in their favor.....wasn't that so helpful? I really wish one of them had delivered it in person so I could have rolled it up really tight and shoved it, unsigned, right up their disgraceful a...........es.


If you lack the confidence to really screw things up yourself go with PA. They will give you the royal screw.(oops did I mean treatment?...nope...screw was the right word.)
 

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Sher2 said:
Life is downright dismal in the Merry Olde Land of Poz by the looks of things. 'Tis the return of the Dark Ages. There is poverty and gloom, a decided dearth of letters, disease -- a pox on every house -- and famine runs rampant in the streets. There be monsters everywhere, and the dragonslayer is dead and reeking. And now, there be Crusaders at the gates, questing for the Grail and three heads on pikes. Yon coming days shall be the blackest of the black, and an itinerant monk could be a welcome sight to the huddled masses. Although ... they are starving. If you see a big pot, run.

My my aren't we a big bundle of happiness :banana:
 

triceretops

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I ran across this quote from the other board:


"Even if bookstore which agrees to display your book, does not sell any, it will provide exposure."

I didn't understand this marketing plan, until I read further in the same message which stated:

"Even at zero profit, author's book gets exposure."

I finally realized that I was stipid and did not decipher the marketing plan correctly. He meant to say that the book would get exposure to the elements.

I stand corrected

Tri
 

lindylou45

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JohnGalt said:
If we can locate the source, and if it turns out that PA is not properly licensing the images it uses for its cover "art," things could get interesting.

- JG

Well, we know they used a picture of Orlando Bloom on one book, of course, they changed the cover rather quickly, I wonder why. Could it be they were afraid of O. B.'s attorney? :scared:
 

Ed Williams

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Whatever it is, sweet lady...

Christine N. said:
...just let it pass by in peace. No upsides to it at all, the dead need to stay dead, just let it float on by....

Here's some good stuff from an earlier referenced PA thread:

Rejection letters send a lot of authors here, I think, and it is hard to get past the initial 'front door', but I do believe the efforts are well worth it. Bigger advances, better advertising, and you're on the shelves. And traditional publishers don't charge either. I have two books with PA, but that doesn't mean I'm limiting myself. It's like playing the lottery. The stakes are high, but if you don't play, you have no chance of winning. Amen.
Truer words were never spoken, truer words were never spoken...

Le complete thread is right here: http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/8713.htm
 
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MacAllister

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Ah! One writer is now openly calling whats-his-name "Shemp" on the PA message board...

I love it!

I hope she's already posting here. :) If not now, then soon.
 

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SeanDSchaffer said:
...For one thing, PA expects my family and friends not to disparage them, as well as myself, my lawyers, my agents, my employees, etc. And of course there's the famous $5,000.00 fine for each instance.
My lawyer friend laughed and said that the provision was not enforceable with regard to other parties. (A and B cannot bind C through a contract to which only A and B are parties.) Sooner or later there will be a test case. Hopefully, PA will be hit with punitive damages for any attempt to enforce such a patently ludicrous provision.

--Ken
 

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robeiae said:
It's only a short hop to the next "rational" choice:

Why not review your book yourself; use pseudonyms so people don't get the wrong idea (i.e. you're not objective). You'll probably get even more gratifying reviews and you can "get" a whole lot of them. That will certainly drive your sales up, too.
Rob
A PA 'author' who was in a PA-promoting panel at a writers' group in this area recently reported doing just that--posting multiple reviews of his own little book of poetry. He saw nothing wrong with that, claiming that he was only saying what other people (friends, family) had told him about his poems.

I have pointed one writer in that group who has what appears to be a fine and worthwhile manuscript to this and other informative sites. (The immediate result was a horrified enlightment.) That writer is informing PA of intent to look around for a publisher and will not be signing any PA contract.

--Ken
 

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Pricing: is this new?

Peculiar, this from the PA site's bookstore:

ISBN: [deleted], 85 pages, 6 x 9
[font=verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Retail Price: $14.95[/font] Your Price: [font=arial,helvetica,san-serif]$11.95[/font]

Amazon charges $14.95 (full "list price") for that book. Is the price cut for direct purchases new? Browsing titles, I see more of the same at PA. For example:

ISBN: [deleted], 284 pages, 6 x 9
[font=verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Retail Price: $24.95[/font] Your Price: [font=arial,helvetica,san-serif]$18.95[/font]

Yet another reason for bookstores not to carry PA titles: the 'publisher' undercuts them on the price.

--Ken
 
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