I'll take your writing rules and raise you an adverb

squalorcat · May 4, 2012

I can't tell you how how much writing advice I've amassed over the years (mostly from non-writers who think they are being helpful). No adverbs; simple dialogue tags; MCs that don't make you want to gauge out your eyes with a spoon.

Sigh.

I'm not disputing that it pays to know the system before you break it. Ch-ch-check yo self before you wreck yo self.

But I also believe that you can pledge allegiance to that system and still churn out something YOU don't even want to re-read. I think I believe in writing as well as you can and trying to improve your craft, always. That being said, I really like it (I mean, really like it) when I'm reading a book and realize halfway through they've broken all the rules and it's awesome.

I'm halfway through Joseph Heller's Catch-22, and I think he put it best when he said, "When I read something saying I've not done anything as good as 'Catch-22' I'm tempted to reply, 'Who has?'" That baby is jam packed with adverbs and it's easily one of the best novels I've ever read.

Any other examples?

Ken · May 4, 2012

... while I respect writers who break rules and really admire them I can't stand their books for the most part. They're difficult to impossible to understand, for me at least, and I usually fling them down in frustration. I wish they'd just say what they had to say in a conventional way. But again, I do respect the writers and do realize that they write for readers who are more intelligent and knowledgeable than me. So if there is anyone at fault I suppose it's me.

squalorcat · May 4, 2012

Ken said:
They're difficult to impossible to understand, for me at least, and I usually fling them down in frustration. I wish they'd just say what they had to say in a conventional way. But again, I do respect the writers and do realize that they write for readers who are more intelligent and knowledgeable than me.

I'll play devil's advocate against myself. I'd argue authors like Mephenie Steyer break several 'rules' per sentence, but that doesn't stop their books from being extremely accessible to readers of all levels.

rainsmom · May 4, 2012

There are tons of examples. And not a one of them will help someone who is trying to traditionally publish his first novel TODAY get past the gatekeepers.

You're right -- keeping to every "rule" 100% of the time can result in a dry boring book. It takes time to figure out, though, when those rules should and shouldn't be broken -- when you are helping or hindering your own work. The problem with focusing on examples of people who did it differently is that too many people will use that as an excuse to break the rules without understanding them, and then they get frustrated when their novels aren't published.

Jamesaritchie · May 4, 2012

squalorcat said:
I can't tell you how how much writing advice I've amassed over the years (mostly from non-writers who think they are being helpful). No adverbs; simple dialogue tags; MCs that don't make you want to gauge out your eyes with a spoon.

Sigh.

I'm not disputing that it pays to know the system before you break it. Ch-ch-check yo self before you wreck yo self.

But I also believe that you can pledge allegiance to that system and still churn out something YOU don't even want to re-read. I think I believe in writing as well as you can and trying to improve your craft, always. That being said, I really like it (I mean, really like it) when I'm reading a book and realize halfway through they've broken all the rules and it's awesome.

I'm halfway through Joseph Heller's Catch-22, and I think he put it best when he said, "When I read something saying I've not done anything as good as 'Catch-22' I'm tempted to reply, 'Who has?'" That baby is jam packed with adverbs and it's easily one of the best novels I've ever read.

Any other examples?

I don't know anyone who says NO adverbs. Too many adverbs makes for poor writing, however, and new writers tend to use far too many.

But let me ask you this, is Catch-22 one of the best novels you've ever read because it contains a lot of adverbs, or because it's a great story with great characters?

squalorcat · May 4, 2012

rainsmom said:
The problem with focusing on examples of people who did it differently is that too many people will use that as an excuse to break the rules without understanding them, and then they get frustrated when their novels aren't published.

Interesting point!

I wouldn't ever use another book as an excuse for my own writing, or justify my writing through another person's work. Your writing is YOURS (presumably). Surely it shouldn't be justified by something else, but justifiable in itself?

squalorcat · May 4, 2012

Jamesaritchie said:
I don't know anyone who says NO adverbs. Too many adverbs makes for poor writing, however, and new writers tend to use far too many.

But let me ask you this, is Catch-22 one of the best novels you've ever read because it contains a lot of adverbs, or because it's a great story with great characters?

All of the above. Mostly the adverbs (and I'm only kind of joking)

Ken · May 4, 2012

squalorcat said:
I'll play devil's advocate against myself. I'd argue authors like Mephenie Steyer break several 'rules' per sentence, but that doesn't stop their books from being extremely accessible to readers of all levels.

... neat how you reversed things. In a way you've got a point. (Don't care for the pun though. No need for that.)

leahzero · May 4, 2012

Rules are different beasts for a novice and a master. A novice breaks them unknowingly, and her work suffers. A master breaks them deliberately, and her work becomes art.

...not trying to be aphoristic, I swear.

Burl Kenneth Sloan · May 4, 2012

Jamesaritchie said:
...is Catch-22 one of the best novels you've ever read because it contains a lot of adverbs, or because it's a great story with great characters?

Excellent point. Great story, great characters. Not because of the adverbs, but I also never felt constrained or tasked by them.

Once! · May 4, 2012

Wolf Hall, by Hilary Mantel, winner of the 2009 Man Booker prize, starts like this:

"So now get up."

Felled, dazed, silent, he has fallen; knocked full length on the cobbles of the yard. His head turns sideways; his eyes are turned towards the gate, as if someone might arrive to help him out. One blow, properly placed, could kill him now.

If we look at this with rules in mind, there are several elements here that might jar. It's normally not a good idea to have three adjectives in a row (felled, dazed, fallen). There is a lot of repetition - felled/ has fallen and turns/ turned.

It is not clear who the "he" of this piece is (an issue which recurs throughout the book).

I find the sentence structure a bit clunky. We have two consecutive sentences which include a semi-colon.

There is a mish-mash of tenses. Has fallen - turns - his eyes are turned.

There is an absence of feeling and emotion. Apart from "dazed", all the other words describe his physical situation rather than how he is feeling. It all seems curiously distant.

And yet it's an effective piece of writing which draws you into the book. Perhaps we can make a case for the discordant elements because they fit with the sensation of being beaten?

buz · May 4, 2012

I kind of think the "rulez" are just like...when you first learn to ski as a kid, and they tell you to make french fries and pizzas (or pies, depending on the school) so that you don't kill yourself while you're getting a feel for things. That's not how you ACTUALLY ski. But you don't learn how to actually ski until you can be on them without falling over and figure out how to turn them and stuff. Once you get past the forced awkward unnaturalness, you can do whatever the hell you feel like (within reason, I mean, you can't just spread your legs out and point your face at a crevasse, or you DO die).

Okay, I mean, that's a...wildly imperfect metaphor. But what I mean is... It's mostly good advice and helped me strengthen my writing throughout the past few months of noobness (not that they're over or anything), but it's not how you craft a story. It's how you avoid smashing your face into some other kid's helmet on the bunny hill. ...Or something.

Buffysquirrel · May 4, 2012

I love Catch-22 too. I'm not sure how it'd fare in today's market, though.

What's that line from POTC? They're more sort of guidelines. When we start getting to 'rules' like convoluting your sentences into knots to avoid harmless verbs like 'to be' or giving you a quota of thats per page, forget about it.

RobJ · May 4, 2012

squalorcat said:
I can't tell you how how much writing advice I've amassed over the years (mostly from non-writers who think they are being helpful). No adverbs; simple dialogue tags; MCs that don't make you want to gauge out your eyes with a spoon.

There's a lot of poor advice about (a lot of good advice too, of course). Reading widely helps you to understand for yourself whether any particular advice has merit. It doesn't take long, for example, to recognise that there's no such thing as a 'no adverbs' rule.

thothguard51 · May 4, 2012

Buffysquirrel said:
I love Catch-22 too. I'm not sure how it'd fare in today's market, though.

Yes, this is part of the problem with comparing books from 40, 50, or more years ago and people always asking if they would sell in today's market, as written.

I remember my first agent could not sell my work because she said I was 20 years too late and that if this was the 80's she would have been able to sell it with no problem. Reading styles do change, and with them, some of the so called rules change...

Still, great books tend to be great book no matter when they were published.

Kerosene · May 4, 2012

As the same with writing, nothing is wrong or right. There is only specific regulations for the best effects.

I say when a writer is good, they can write and tell you anything and make it work. The job of the writer is to make other read and understand what they say. So when that writer is good enough, he can just make anything snap; with or without the rules.

Buffysquirrel · May 4, 2012

Once! said:
It is not clear who the "he" of this piece is (an issue which recurs throughout the book).

Well, I haven't read the book, but my father says 'he' is always Cromwell.

magicmint · May 4, 2012

leahzero said:
Rules are different beasts for a novice and a master. A novice breaks them unknowingly, and her work suffers. A master breaks them deliberately, and her work becomes art.

...not trying to be aphoristic, I swear.

I like this.

Jamesaritchie · May 4, 2012

Burl Kenneth Sloan said:
Excellent point. Great story, great characters. Not because of the adverbs, but I also never felt constrained or tasked by them.

No, and as a reader, that's fine. As a writer, however, you have to ask yourself constantly, "Is this the best possible way I could write this sentence?"

Browland86 · May 4, 2012

This is sort of related to an issue I'm having. I've just read Self-Editing for Fiction Writers and now I'm hyper conscious of adverbs. I find myself censoring myself as I write because I'm afraid to use adverbs. But some adverbs are okay, right? Sometimes they're necessary to get the meaning across. But I need to find a way to write freely without worrying about editing until the end. Has anyone else ever felt like this?

SomethingOrOther · May 4, 2012

This is sort of related to an issue I'm having. I've just read Self-Editing for Fiction Writers and now I'm hyper conscious of adverbs. I find myself censoring myself as I write because I'm afraid to use adverbs. But some adverbs are okay, right? Sometimes they're necessary to get the meaning across. But I need to find a way to write freely without worrying about editing until the end. Has anyone else ever felt like this?

Put your hands up and get down on the ground--you're under arrest for grand felony adverbing.

Yes, some adverbs are ~~okay~~ necessary. Read some novels and study how often they are used, and watch out for the adverbs that don't end in -ly.

RobJ · May 5, 2012

Browland86 said:
This is sort of related to an issue I'm having. I've just read Self-Editing for Fiction Writers and now I'm hyper conscious of adverbs. I find myself censoring myself as I write because I'm afraid to use adverbs. But some adverbs are okay, right? Sometimes they're necessary to get the meaning across. But I need to find a way to write freely without worrying about editing until the end. Has anyone else ever felt like this?

I haven't read it. Does SEfFW explain the difference between good and bad usage? Does it provide examples of each?

Browland86 · May 5, 2012

RobJ said:
I haven't read it. Does SEfFW explain the difference between good and bad usage? Does it provide examples of each?

It does. I probably need to reread that section after I've finished my first draft and worry about revising then.

Thanks for the responses.

ironmikezero · May 5, 2012

Rules were made to be broken... (wait for it)... frequently.

<snork>

Raventongue · May 5, 2012

If I knew for 100% certain today that I would never get published if I used too many adverbs, I'd just put the whole novel up on the web. I don't enjoy writing if I can't describe freely, I get too hung up on whether the reader is actually seeing what the story needs them to see.

I'll take your writing rules and raise you an adverb

squalorcat

Ken

squalorcat

rainsmom

Feeling like an old timer

Jamesaritchie

squalorcat

squalorcat

Ken

leahzero

The colors! THE COLORS!

Burl Kenneth Sloan

Once!

Still confused by shoelaces

buz

edits all posts at least four times

Buffysquirrel

RobJ

thothguard51

A Gentleman of a refined age...

Kerosene

Your Pixie Queen

Buffysquirrel

magicmint

Jamesaritchie

Browland86

SomethingOrOther

-

RobJ

Browland86

ironmikezero

practical experience, FTW

Raventongue

little orphan anarchist