Is ‘editing your own book’ as dumb as ‘representing yourself in court’? I don’t think so.

I'd place myself at a high 8 or 9 for grammar and spelling (mother was a former teacher who checked all my homework), but after reading my stuff aloud I always find something I've missed or need to check on. Content - well, I don't think there are a lot of writers out there who catch everything, unless they've been at it for decades. But that's why I have my beta group, and as others have said, they're invaluable.

As for proofreading, that's great, but I've met a lot of grammar nerds who can't write their way out of a paper bag let alone edit their own work.

CrastersBabies said:

As for proofreading, that's great, but I've met a lot of grammar nerds who can't write their way out of a paper bag let alone edit their own work.

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shadowwalker said:

But that's why I have my beta group, and as others have said, they're invaluable.

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I don't consider myself a grammar 'nerd' - just had it drummed into me from an early age. And I can indeed write my way out of a paper bag.

Hey, some people can, but I know a lot who can't but are absolutely convinced they can. People like you, imho, are in a very small minority. 1% of the writing population. Maybe less.

So people can't be good at grammar and writing at the same time? Wow.

shadowwalker said:

So people can't be good at grammar and writing at the same time? Wow.

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Not what I meant. My bad for not clarifying. Was kind of just going along with the flow of the conversation.

I can't write poetry for anything (and my editing for poetry is pretty low on the scale--passable for a student-run magazine).

I'm adequate on rhet/comp. work.

Nonfiction is somewhere between poetry and fiction. I'm still learning.

I understand the structure of all of the above. Have taught them in class. Have graded papers. Have corrected grammar. (Even if I don't use perfect grammar on an internet message board.)

All of the above? I could nail an editing pass for academia, for students wanting help with grammar. But, in a 150k word novel? No. I could not. Furthermore, because I know grammar, because I know creative writing methods, theories and craft mechanics does not make me a good writer. Not in any way, shape or form.

What makes me a good writer is an understanding of the above, hard work and something intuitive that I scrape away after a hard session with my muse. No amount of grammar will make what I write magically publishable. I someone wants to argue that, I guess they'll find a great job writing textbooks? Even so, the best textbooks have voice, style and accessibility. Grammar can't account for that either.

I'm not picking on you. I'm saying, "hey, if you can write like a madman/madwoman AND self-edit to super publishable success without an agent, without an editor, great! But, I consider those people to be in the minority."

If you're in the minority, then all the power to you. I'm not that lucky. A lot of people aren't that lucky. It's like lightning striking twice imho and for those who truly have that gift, I expect them to be NYT top-selling authors making pretty big bucks. I certainly would strive for that myself if I had the goods.

CrastersBabies said:

I'm not picking on you. I'm saying, "hey, if you can write like a madman/madwoman AND self-edit to super publishable success without an agent, without an editor, great! But, I consider those people to be in the minority."

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No one is talking about making great success without an editor or agent, we're talking about the ability to write well and edit well without the aid of an extra set of eyes before submitting to said editors or agents.

If you're in the minority, then all the power to you. I'm not that lucky. A lot of people aren't that lucky. It's like lightning striking twice imho and for those who truly have that gift, I expect them to be NYT top-selling authors making pretty big bucks. I certainly would strive for that myself if I had the goods.

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I disagree with this very strongly. NYT best sellers aren't necessarily the best novels or the best written. In fact, I find it often the opposite--I can't stand the majority of NYT best sellers. What they ARE, is written to the least common denominator in a way that people like. That doesn't mean good. I'd give examples, but I don't want to piss anyone off.

CrastersBabies said:

Nonfiction is somewhere between poetry and fiction. I'm still learning.

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Start by unlearning this. It makes no sense at all. It's like saying an elephant is somewhere between a whale and a three-toed sloth.

caw

blacbird said:

Start by unlearning this. It makes no sense at all. It's like saying an elephant is somewhere between a whale and a three-toed sloth.

caw

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He means his ability level.

ArchaWriter said:

I have spent four years writing my little masterpiece. Okay, maybe only my family will buy a copy but that’s not the point.
But I have been objective to myself. I have read it as a stranger. I have read it slowly, looking at each word.
Trust me, I know some people can’t edit. But can you?
Just be honest with me. On a scale of 1-10, how competent are your editing skills?
And yes, I mean catching things like ‘your’ instead of ‘you’re’.
And I’m not referring to storylines and plot for beta readers.
How good are you at editing your own book?

PS: I would never represent myself in court.

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I suck plums at editing.

While I can see problems with story etc, when it comes to line by line, forget it. I have a blindness for punctuation and my spelling is approximate at best.

I NEED someone to work with on a word by word, line by line basis because I need the reader to be able to actually READ the story that is hidden behind my errors.

I think writers can self edit to an extent, and then there really is a need for a fresh set of eyes, someone who knows what they are doing and who is able to help.

CrastersBabies said:

Not what I meant. My bad for not clarifying.

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Ohhhhkay - understood.

For the record - I do use my betas for all my writing, and I definitely would not be a wunderkind as far as agents/editors! But grammar is one thing my betas don't have to deal with (for the most part).

Assuming that you ARE a competent editor, the thing is going to be okay in terms of grammar, syntax and spelling. So, if the market is your immediate circle, or yourself, what's to be gained by having someone else go over it?
If it's for publication, as long as it's in good form when accepted, there'll be plenty of editing during pre-production.

The problem I have is that outside editors don't have your eye or ear for the material, characters, and setting. And they often are pretty formulaic. If you're writing a cookie-cutter book, they can certainly help.

shaldna said:

my spelling is approximate at best.

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This made me giggle. Too cute!

shadowwalker said:

Ohhhhkay - understood.

For the record - I do use my betas for all my writing, and I definitely would not be a wunderkind as far as agents/editors! But grammar is one thing my betas don't have to deal with (for the most part).

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Yeah, I didn't even get to betas or writing groups because I was blathering on enough, lol! I am pretty clueless w/o my betas! And I think I got myself a little more off track because when I think of self-editing, I think of more than just grammar, but for some reason was focusing all on the grammar. I think I'm just a mess right now. lmao.

In short, I think you are right in that a good number of people can write awesome and they have grammar awesomeness (like you.) I have pretty good grammar in my writing as well. I'd actually put the grammar alone at around 80-85%. But, when I get into sentence clunkiness (that happens to everyone), then that number gets lower. I'd never give my betas/writing group something that was a grammatical mess and I'd polish that sucker to my utmost before submitting.

But, ya know, my idea of concise writing (that flows, that sounds good with my story) may not be someone else's, so that's where my editor pal comes in.

I'm talking too much again. =D I'll leave it at that for now.

WildScribe said:

He means his ability level.

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(s)he definitely means her ability level! =)

DennisB said:

The problem I have is that outside editors don't have your eye or ear for the material, characters, and setting. And they often are pretty formulaic. If you're writing a cookie-cutter book, they can certainly help.

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Wow. Allow me to express offense of behalf of myself and pretty much all other editors out there.

When it comes to editing, I'm okay - as long as I see the mistakes. Finding them, not so easy. My dyslexia strikes hard when it comes to grammar and typos.

Plot holes and story issues I generally need a little nudge to work out too. Once I know there's an issue there, no problem finding it. But as long as I don't know it's there, I have the most horendous of times trying to find it.

As many have said, both is the way to go. When it comes to spelling and grammar, that has always come naturally to me, but that doesn't mean I don't mess up once in a while. Everyone makes mistakes, even perfectionists, and sometimes I will read something I wrote and I'm not sure if a comma or a semi-colon or something like that belongs in a certain place and I have to look it up. And plot holes are sometimes easy to spot for the writer; other times, they're not. I once had a character whose eye color switched halfway through the story. It's always good to have a fresh pair of eyes look it over. Putting away for a month and going back to it doesn't always do the trick.

Just my opinion.