The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

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emeraldcite

Re: ooh... I'm special!

lol...Hb's a real champ of PA:

Did you notice the literary expert forgot a comma?
"You will never, ever become a writer with literature like that which is not even worthy of my time if it were printed on the inner walls of the restroom."
There should be a comma after 'that'. So do you still want to be bothered by that slammer? I repeated English in high school and I caught that.

and then...

The funny part is that he thinks he took a step forward with this other publisher when PA is miles ahead of them. It's a satellite publisher. It's not a big name to be prowd of.

PA is something to be 'prowd' of. whoops, ended that one in a preposition...
 

DaveKuzminski

Re: ooh... I'm special!

I've noticed that very few of those individuals who visit those other boards are brave enough to post the same message on forums where they can be answered. Talk about slamming, some of these individuals ought to look in a mirror.
 

FM St George

Re: ooh... I'm special!

actually, Steve's a hoot - he got into a huge fight with Mark over at writers.net and then tried to bolster his argument by posing as another person and boosting his own work - forgetting that writers.net keeps track of the IP...

whoops...

I will somehow survive this...

*giggles*

I'm just waiting to see how long Lisa's post stays up...

:D
 

Ed Williams 3

Check this quote out from a PA Davidian...

....

"You are published Valentine, you've lived the dream many would die for. A lot of cowards on writers net would love to get published by PA and because of their arrongance or wanting to blend in well with other crowds, they wont. They might never realise their dream as you have, to see your thoughts written on paper PUBLISHED for any and all to see!!!!!"

In a lot of cases, those thoughts would be better off staying within the minds of those who thought them. I don't think it has yet registered over at PA that some authors slavish devotion to PA will keep them from ever being picked up by a traditional publisher. Bottom line, publishers today expect some modicum of business savvy from their authors, which would eliminate some of the more well known PA Davidians. If they can't figure out what PA is, will they be able to figure out a marketing plan? A book tour itinerary? Extremely doubtful, to put it mildly.

Let's lay down the gauntlet to some of our cult brethren over at PA. Y'all can even answer these questions on your own board, as your bravery seems to be more pronounced there. Please answer the following:

1. Name any PA titles that have been carried nationally by any bookstore chains.

2. Name any traditionally published authors that you know of who opted to publish with PA after having their initial works traditionally published.

3. Just what does being designated an "Independence" author/title mean? If it means "going national," please name what bookstore chains are nationally stocking these titles?

We're waiting...
 

James D Macdonald

Re: Check this quote out from a PA Davidian...

Name any traditionally published authors that you know of who opted to publish with PA after having their initial works traditionally published.

Actually, I can see that happening. Bad things happen to authors, bad things happen to careers.

There's a whole raft of authors who managed to get one or two books published but didn't manage to get number three placed. This really does happen. Written fiction is part of the entertainment industry, where you're only as good as your last review.

How about authors who only had one good book in them? It happens. How about the ones sodden with drink, overtaken by senility? The ones whose chosen genre is currently unmarketable, the ones who have an experimental thing they'd like to try ... you can find all kinds of authors.

Not all writers are automatically savvy about the business.

So no, I'm not going to rule out the idea that some people who are traditionally published today might not be vanity published tomorrow.

A better challenge might be this: Name a writer who was offered a contract by a traditional publisher who turned it down in order to publish the same book with PublishAmerica.

(Oh, and here's something funny: We've all heard about the book by Jamie Farr and his wife, right? PA isn't the only vanity publisher that boasts of celebrity writers: Vantage Press got Ellen Corby. (You remember Ellen Corby, right? She played Grandma on The Waltons.) )
 

Ed Williams 3

You're right...

...I really hadn't thought about the scenarios you described, but you're right. You could have an initial book or two that sells and then the well run dry (Personally, I would just stop attempting to publish if the well dried up for me, but that's just my take on things). In that case, I could see someone going the POD route, at least they would understand exactly what they're getting themselves into. That's what bothers me so much about PA - if they were honest on the front end as to what they are, I would have no beef with them. Instead, they prey on aspiring writer's dreams, and that bothers me a lot.
 

vstrauss

Re: Check this quote out from a PA Davidian...

>> So no, I'm not going to rule out the idea that some people who are traditionally published today might not be vanity published tomorrow.<<

I agree. I've gotten a fair number of inquiries about PA from freelance journalists and nonfiction authors--some with impressive careers--who are considering it because they're having a tough time placing their first fiction.

- Victoria
 

FM St George

and the delusions continue...

www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/2263.htm

I still find it funny that all these brave souls dare not grace any other boards with much more than a trolling rant while parading around with no clothing on the safety of the PA boards...

guess real conversations just don't turn them on...

:D
 

darbyj

Re: and the delusions continue...

FM,

Did you see my PA post? Please tell me you did.

Lisa
 

DaveKuzminski

Poor HB

I hope he doesn't get banned from the PublishAmerica forum for visiting my site. I mean, what could he have been thinking by doing that?
 

James D Macdonald

Re: and the delusions continue...

Here're some comments for Chickie:

John Grisham's first book was traditionally published. His big break came when his agent managed to sell his second book to Hollywood prior to publication.

Edgar Allen Poe was a well known writer and editor during his lifetime. He died broke partly because with the state of copyright at the time people were pirating his works left, right, and sideways. The initial payment he got for first publication was the only money he saw despite being widely reprinted. (Does this sound familiar?)
 

Ed Williams 3

Well, look at it this way...

...HB charges off on these rants because he can - no one can challenge him on the PA boards, and he has failed to answer even a few of the questions put to him here. Obviously, he wants PA to be a traditional publisher, so it is so for him. And so be it, he has every right to think and believe that, and he will still be defending PA years from now, provided they survive. And let's face it, they, or some version thereof, will survive, as so many people want to be published and have no avenue for doing so. A writer's dreams are an easy thing to prey on, and PA does a masterful job of that. Conversely, no one has an inherent right to be published, but PA does a good job of promoting that belief as well. Maybe they should consider venturing into the political realm one day.

I do think he should be more careful about his comments about professional achievements - I think both from a sales and scope of publishing achievement standpoint that many on this board could swamp him five times over. Face it, PA books aren't stocked nationally in any stores that I'm aware of, and getting library placement is tough for them - what achievements can there be?

One final thing, HB - if I were you, I'd work on my spelling, syntax, and verb tenses before I'd be casting out many more insults about anything writing related....
 

darbyj

To HB Marcus

HB (or to anyone who can make him aware of this message),

I tried to post a message to you on the PA board, but it was pulled very quickly and I was banned from the board again. How very glad I am to have this board to post on, where I know my message to you will be here the next time I look. I am hoping you will see this and understand.

When I sent my manuscript to PA and it was accepted AND I signed the contract, I really liked the idea of PA. I appreciated that I didn't need to pay them to publish me and that they would design a cover at no cost to me (a cover with which I was very happy, by the way). Looking back, it might have done me some good to be aware of the cover price ahead of time (not stated in my contract) and the difficulties involved in getting my book into brick and mortar stores. But I don't blame PA for that, I blame myself.

I wanted to tell you that not all PA authors who are disgruntled with PA suffer from "sour grape" syndrome. I knew what I was getting into when I signed my contract. PA serves authors in a way that I don't think any other publisher does, and that is wonderful, but for them to tout themselves as traditional is...well, deceptive. They may not take an author's money. They may offer an advance. They may offer some sort of editing. They may offer royalties. As I said, they do provide a service to authors, but they are not traditional.

I resent their pulling any message and banning any author that states that fact and I resent authors like you who defend that pulling and banning. I don't understand why PA can't be PA, a company that provides a type of publishing without cost to the author. I don't see why PA has a problem with that. I signed up with them thinking that, and I'm sure many others would as well.

Again, I apologize for having to place this message here instead of on PA, but I did try. I don't want you to think I am trying to "have it both ways" as I believe another PA author was accused not too long ago before he was banned.

Lisa
 

emeraldcite

Re: To HB Marcus

PA serves authors in a way that I don't think any other publisher does, and that is wonderful, but for them to tout themselves as traditional is...well, deceptive. They may not take an author's money. They may offer an advance. They may offer some sort of editing. They may offer royalties. As I said, they do provide a service to authors, but they are not traditional.

exactly, darby: putting up cardboard cut-outs of people in your restaurant doesn't mean that it's a great place to eat. most of their services are more for the sake of saying they provide, rather than being full-scale services.

also, i found this quote interesting off the boards:

Traditional publishers don't really do a whole heck of a lot more than PA, just give us a bigger advance and have our books sitting in piles in a warehouse.

lol. right. they pay you more and have a supply of books on hand (or if there is a demand for them, they can actually provide them). they keep them in the warehouse so they can ship them to the brick & mortars.

for being on demand, PA doesn't deal well with getting the books out in a timely manner when they are demanded. not even for their own authors' signings...
 

aka eraser

They just don't/won't get it

4000+ "happy" authors. Two (3?) of whom have sold 500+ books. Let's pretend they didn't by any themselves (a stretch, I know).

I'm a first-time, no-name author of a fishing-related book. It was published by a small arm of a large, traditional publisher and released late. Review copies were not sent out until it arrived in bookstores. With the long lead times of magazines combined with the book's release at the end of the traditional fishing season, I've received only one tiny mention. I hope for, but don't really expect, more ink in the Spring. (Yes, I've been doing some prodding, and will do more.)

My point though, is that despite virtually no publicity and without buying a single copy myself, or having a signing, or a puff piece in my local weekly paper, my book sold between 500-600 copies in December alone.

Those numbers won't make King, Grisham or Uncle Jim nervous but it's a far sight better than probably any 10 PA titles did combined in December.

THAT is the main advantage of being traditionally published and placed in brick and mortar stores without begging and whining. My book was in a catalogue distributed to stores and supported by a sales force. It is available to anyone, anywhere, at any time within a day or two.

HB Marcus can bluster, Ho-Ho and even, apparently, levitate; but his claims that PA is superior to even a small, legitimate, traditional publisher are laughable.

Oh, and I got a $5,000.00 advance too.
 

FM St George

Re: They just don't/won't get it

I saw the post, Lisa... thanks for having the guts to post it and bear the wrath again of the PA Bully Boys...

I agree with everything you said - and if HB had a leg to stand on he'd be here discussing it with us instead of standing on his own personal soapbox at PA and bleating at the converted.

The sad thing is that he may actually be a good writer - but I fear for any editor who would have to work with him or any publicist who might have to now that he's been pumped up by the PA monster... he probably truly believes that every word is sacred and would refuse outright to cut a comma!

ah, well... more's the pity...
 

emeraldcite

Re: They just don't/won't get it

actually, he has admitted in several post how grateful he was for PA fixing his grammar. need i cite 'prowd' again...lol

\:rollin
 

darbyj

Re: They just don't/won't get it

Eraser,

Great for you on the advance and the sales. While I am aware that a first time author published with a traditional or small press wouldn't get the pub that King or Grisham or Grafton get, and while I've never worked with any publisher other than PA, I just KNOW that those other presses must at least open the door for the author in some way, shape, or form. The books must be in catalogs or signings are set up for the author (yes, the author gets the work of the signing, but not the begging and bargaining that must come before it) or something. Not with PA. And that's okay, if your not into the traditional way of publishing. Then don't say you are, you know what I mean?

FM, glad someone saw my message. I can believe how fast it went. I was so pissed. Imagine my surprise when I came here and my message was still here! What a relief.

Lisa
 

FM St George

Re: They just don't/won't get it

ah, but here we have discussions...

not one-sided rants pulled by the moderators without a single comment nor reason why.

PA certainly is fast on the boards... too bad they're not as fast answering questions from their authors on things like slow delivery or responses to questions about their "free" websites and all that...

LOL!
 

darbyj

Re: They just don't/won't get it

"If you're not up to the challenge, then whining and pointing fingers at your own inadaqucies tells me you're losing. Sad day in loser land."

Again, not being able to respond to something like this because I've been banned is very frustrating, HB. Not every disgruntled PA author is whining and pointing fingers at his/her own inadequacies, or even at PA's- just aggravated that PA and some of its authors consider it a traditional publishing company. It's not the company and what they do, but the deceptive way they present themselves to authors who long to be published and may not realize how much their book is going to cost after it's printed or how hard it will be to sell, not matter how much they believe in it.

Sigh, I can't wait to get back to work.

Lisa
 

FM St George

Re: They just don't/won't get it

don't sweat it too much, Lisa - if you look at the posts you see very little logic and way too much emotion. That tells me that while he may be holding the banner high, he still has trouble justifying it to himself in the long run and falls back on the emotional pleas and diatribes to keep himself (and the authors he gathers under his wing) going.

if you check he doesn't even try to refute any of your argument (or those of the rest of us); he just rants on about how it's *YOUR* problem if the book isn't selling - as if we're all just sitting back and waiting for the cash to roll in.

maybe it's just me, but I didn't sign up with PA to be a door-to-door salesman of my own book. I didn't sign up to have every bookstore refuse to carry a POD when I was told BY PA that they would. And I refuse to become the neighbourhood bully forcing my product on friends and family and perfect strangers because somehow I'm supposed to be the only one flogging my book.

That's the job of the publisher. It's in THEIR best interest to have my book succeed; more than myself. But since PA counts on resales by the author for their income, they don't bother. How many threads have you seen that recommend authors keep buying copies of their own books to resell? Ask James M. or AC or VS if they had to buy their own copies and then resell them to make money...

He knows the truth - he's just in too deep to get out and he's too hooked on the ego boost by being PA's main spokesman. It's an addiction and a sad one - I wonder how much money he's lost trying to sell books. And he just submitted his third one to PA to boot.

We state facts, he rants illogical and misspelt diatribes - who do you think looks better in the long run?

;)
 

darbyj

Re: They just don't/won't get it

I agree with you, FM, I am certainly no sales person and knew I couldn't go door to door, bookstore to bookstore selling. I did bring my book and a media kit to a few local stores, but I'm not into begging/convincing. I gave them a free copy of my book, figuring if they liked it and wanted to stock it, do signings, etc, they'd contact me. I'm not a pushy person and had no desire to keep going back. The end result was that my book was not stocked in any local stores. Maybe they didn't like the book. Maybe they didn't like the price. Maybe they didn't like the no return policy. I don't know.

I'm just so tired of the "sour grapes" thing. What PA does is not "bad". I don't know why they can't just admit what they do.

Lisa
 

FM St George

Re: They just don't/won't get it

well... because then they won't get the money.

if they came out at the start and said "Oh, by the way - you'll have a heck of a time getting your book into mainstream stores due to the no-return policy and the only way you're really going to sell is by harassing managers, friends and family while excusing the overpriced book..."

gee, I'd have still signed up.

NOT!

:D

think of it this way - at least we can walk into our local bookstores and still hold our heads high - I doubt that happens when HB walks into a bookstore - they probably duck down below the counter and the manager takes a lunch break; anything to avoid being harassed and verbally attacked by a salesman!

because in the long run those tactics will only carry you so far - after he's harassed the local stores, where do you go? It doesn't work so well online, as he's probably seen by now since we're still here and actually writing.

I'd rather sell NO books and still have my dignity and intergrity than sell 500 by harassing and shoving my book in someone's face every few minutes. It may never make me rich, but at least I can look at myself in the mirror.

something I doubt some PA authors can do at times...

:)
 

Canada James

subject

Mr. Kuzminski:

"Then you duck the real questions to always make yourself look good when you're totally undeserving."

It's funny when I prove you wrong. And I get to do it so often, too.

"I've noticed that very few of those individuals who visit those other boards are brave enough to post the same message on forums where they can be answered. Talk about slamming, some of these individuals ought to look in a mirror."

Not all of them have as thick of skin as do I. A cult is a cult is a cult. This one is no different than the one at PA.

Granny:
"OF COURSE there's a new release page. The simple truth is that you cannot save everyone."

But it's easier to get your point across when you argue points that both sides understand, Granny. The devil doesn't have to make you evil to get you into Hell, he just has to keep you from God. Think hard, you're almost there.

"Nor would I suggest that people like Dave and Victoria and Ann quit giving out warnings just because folks are still getting tricked into believing PA or poetry.com hype and double talk."

See, this is the problem right here. I'm having conversation (a) while you're stuck in conversation (b).

(Conversation a) Stay away from benign warnings such as movie rights, editing and distribution. All they do is give the author the idea that they can find ways around them (we are problem solvers). I've stated this from the beginning (Dave, if you mention my deleted posts I'll just post the link because it's still there) and I am restating it now.

I have always believed that people should know exactly what PA is before signing their contract, and I just can't agree with you that warning people of sex scenes in PA books is really a mark against the company. I guess you and I will just have to agree to disagree, Granny.

(You see, and I do understand that you don't get my subtlety so I will explain, Mr. Kuzminski's warnings are about the hypocrisy of sex scenes and not actually about contract problems. If you think he's doing a bang up job then you obviously agree with his tactics. I, for one, don't and am not afraid to publicly state so.)

(Conversation b) This is the argument you had with all those other PA authors that you are now taking out on me. I'd tell you what it was, but because I wasn't there in the beginning I don't get it half the time. It's like I walked into a movie half-way through or tried reading a Star Trek novel.

a.k.a. eraser:
"Have you ever said that on the PA message boards?"

Worse than that.

FM:
"I still find it funny that all these brave souls dare not grace any other boards with much more than a trolling rant while parading around with no clothing on the safety of the PA boards...
"guess real conversations just don't turn them on..."

Real conversation is just fine. I've yet to see it happen here or there.
I believe astonwest said:
"Yes, I can tell it has a really positive feel...just from that post right there...and all the others bashing the non-compliant..."

And I would have to say that it rings as true here as it does at PA.

The very non-compliant Canada James
 

absolutewrite

Re: subject

We still let our non-compliants post...

Until they seriously get on my nerves, that is. And sometimes long after that. ;)
 
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