Somewhat Obscure references...should they be avoided?

Nogetsune · Nov 2, 2014

I've been working on my NaNO stuff, and I've found that some of my characters are making references that readers unfamiliar with anime/manga may not exactly get. My protagonists in question are both gamers and anime fans, and as a result they have made a few references to anime that I'm not sure I should include in the story despite it being totally in character to make these references. Now, I know some degree of "geeky" references are fine, because some geeky things are universally known. Marvel/DC, for example, are well-known enough that if a character says "X person reminds me of Lex Luthor" people will "get" what the character is saying because, even if they don't read comic books Superman is well-known enough that most people will have a general idea of who Lex Luthor is.

However, my characters are not referencing only "big names." They are not making a LOT of obscure references, mind you, but so far they have referenced both Madoka Magica and Code Geass, comparing certain characters to Lelouch and Kyubei, respectively. They have also used the term "moe" several times, and called at least one character a "genki girl." While most anime fans will immediately get all these references(CG and Madoka are fairly "big" animes, and terms like moe and genki are often-used terms when discussing anime characters). However, I am wondering if these references are just so blatantly otaku-centric that non-anime fans will just be left confused by them and, if so, are they even worth including despite the fact it is in character for my protagonists to use these terms when and how they do? I mean, I could communicate the same messages without using the references, or in some cases substituting a more well-known but just as geeky reference in place of the otaku-centric one. For example, when they compare the main antagonist to Kyubei from madkoa, they could instead compare her to, say, the rabbit from Monty Python. You get the same general message across(looks cute, but underneath the adorableness there is evil), it's still geeky(Holy Grail is considered a "geeky" movie) but unlike the anime reference of Kyubei, non-otaku readers will likely at least know whats being talked about since the Rabbit from Monty Python is probably more universally known then Kyubei from Madoka.

Likewise, when one of my protagonists compares the other to Lelouch from code geass, I could substitute any Marvel/DC manipulator mastermind that is fairly well known(the aforementioned Lex Luthor immediately springs to mind, but I'm sure there are others that are well-known enough and get the message across) for Lelouch and still have a reference that is geeky enough, while not alienating non-anime fan readers.

However, the only downside to switching the otaku references for more "well known" geeky references is that, these characters are both meant to be otakus as well as gamer geeks. So, while the anime references would be less well-known then Marvel/DC references or references to other geeky media, the anime references would be more in character for these protagonists.

So the question is, how far can I go with anime references? Would it be best not to include them at all unless they are massively well-known(such as, say, a reference to pokemon)? Any opinions on this would be great.

Becca C. · Nov 2, 2014

If your characters are into this stuff and it's part of the plot and story, I don't think a non-anime fan would even want to read the book. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but with anime type stuff, you're either in or you're out. I say go for it, make all the references you want.

However, if the book isn't largely centred around anime culture, you might want to drop references, because if I was reading a book I thought was about, for example, a school shooting in a Western setting and all the characters were making these really obscure (to me) anime references, I'd probably stop reading.

Dennis E. Taylor · Nov 2, 2014

How many of these anime references could be resolved with a quick googling?

I may be a minority opinion here, but I love inside references. And not the easy stuff either -- Star Trek is for wannabes and amateurs. If your readers don't get a particular reference, I'm betting they'll look it up (and get a charge out of the fact that they nailed it) or just accept it as an obscure reference and move on.

I think the only way you might get a bit of flack is if an obscure reference is required in order to understand the basic plot. Then you'd be limiting yourself.

lenore_x · Nov 2, 2014

I think this could work if it's either very sparse or really laid out plain for readers, e.g., "Man, that guy's acting like Lelouch from Code Geass." This borders on As You Know Bob territory, but it's the only way I would get the idea "Oh, they're making a reference to something" rather than "Who's Lelouch? *flips back several pages to make sure I didn't miss anything*"

For the record, I'm an anime fan. I would actually love to see some anime fan characters in YA. (Although I haven't seen CG or Madoka Magica.)

Cyia · Nov 2, 2014

One of the books in my sigline has a guy who regularly references movies made prior to 1960 as though people know what he's talking about. I doubt anyone reading the book knows what they are, but it's characterization and atmosphere. So basically, if it works, it works.

Liosse de Velishaf · Nov 3, 2014

Because of the way anime is viewed in Western culture, I think Becca's points are something you have to consider.

I'm a huge anime fan. Code Geass and Madoka Magica are almost the opposite of obscure in my frame of reference, being relatively recent and very popular, as well as in two very popular genres: magical girl, and mecha.

There are things that may seem equivalent, such as the movie references Cyia mentions, but they aren't quite the same. A movie buff in western culture may be considered a bit weird, but in generally they have a fairly long tradition as a character trope, and most people will let them go without thinking anything particularly negative, and obscure movies are still respectable references. Whereas anime fans have some pretty negative stereotypes, and anime has plenty, too.

Most anime fans in my experience are incredibly geeky about their areas of interest, and to be realistic, you'd risk alienating readers who are neutral or disdainful of anime/manga/light novels/visual novels as a hobby.

It could definitely turn off a lot of people, especially if it's plot relevant. If it's purely a characterization thing, you could go a bit heavier on the references.

Bluefish · Nov 3, 2014

It might depend on the target audience. Is the book aimed at those of the geekier persuasion? If so, then obscure references are probably a good way to earn their respect quickly. If not...well, I admit I love obscure references either way. So I say go for it.

And I really need to see Madoka.

poetinahat · Nov 3, 2014

You seem to want cut-and-dried answers to a number of questions. They might be best answered by reading books on your own and checking your own reactions.

People have all sorts of opinions, and they may all be valid. There are all sorts of scenarios and audiences.

It's your work; you're going to have to make some choices on your own. If you want a formula, you're probably in the wrong game.

Bufkus · Nov 11, 2014

Speaking as a mostly former anime fan, I usually cringe when I see anime references in novels, unless they are references to very mainstream stuff (like sailor moon or dragonball, aka stuff you expect most people to recognize/have grown up with). If you're going to reference flavor of the month stuff like Madoka, that's just going to be very cringe worthy for most people, and the ones who don't recognize it will just scratch their heads.

So in my opinion, reference timeless works, not stuff that was popular for a year and faded away.

Hapax Legomenon · Nov 11, 2014

I'm just scratching my head as to why you would want to repeatedly reference these things.

References should be one of three (or some combination) things:
1) subtle
2) throw-away
3) incredibly well-known

If you reference something like Star Wars, that should be fine. If you reference something in such a way that someone who would not recognize the work being referenced wouldn't even recognize it's a reference, that should be okay too. What I mean by "throw-away," I mean the reference is only there to add flavor. Like, say, if your story is set in the 80s and the characters are watching some 80s movie that really only someone who grew up in the 80s would remember, that should be fine because people who didn't will likely gloss over it, but at the same time it firmly roots the work in the 80s at a particular time.

Your references do none of these things so I'd say they have to go. The comparison is overt and obviously trying to be meaningful but will go way over some people's heads and worse off will make others cringe. Don't do it.

Emmet Cameron · Nov 22, 2014

I am a walking obscure reference, so I naturally lean towards including them in my stories.

I try to remember to:
-Give enough information within the scene that the reader can probably piece together what they're talking about and why it's relevant in context without heading to google. If they decide to check the thing out because it sounds cool, that's cool, but if they literally don't understand the scene without reaching for outside references, I've failed.
-Keep it brief enough that it's not boring to readers who don't care about the thing I'm referencing.

It's a tricky balancing act, and I end up deciding to delete more references than I keep, but I still find it fun seeing what I can slip in without disrupting the flow.

Somewhat Obscure references...should they be avoided?

Nogetsune

Becca C.

Dennis E. Taylor

Get it off! It burns!

lenore_x

Cyia

Rewriting My Destiny

Liosse de Velishaf

Bluefish

poetinahat

say it loud

Bufkus

Hapax Legomenon

Emmet Cameron