Regarding F/F Couples in Lit...

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It's funny you mention that. Isn't it stereotyped that guys LOVE when girls have fun with each other? D:

It's all so weird they *wouldnt* read f/f. XD
The stereotype seems to be two girls having fun with each other and then a man joins in and it's even more fun. That doesn't happen in f/f.
 

KaiReader

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Personally, I'd LOVE to see more books with f/f relationships! I'm not really a romance reader though, more SF/F... Perhaps that's because I don't relate well to 99% of romance characters?
It would be nice to read some stories that I can better relate to!

Oh, by the way, I will have a F/F adult novel out next year. Just an FYI...

I'd like to check that out when it's available :)
 

slhuang

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Oh! Are there any books that have female x female romances? Anything fantasy/supernatural/paranormal would be super.

*tiptoes into thread*

*points to second book cover in sig* :D (fantasy short story, a fairy tale subversion about Beauty and Red Riding Hood -- and their daughter -- many years later, and the link takes you to where you can read it for free on the publisher's website)

*tiptoes back out again*

*tiptoes back in to add . . .*

The story has had a fantastic response. I didn't feel like I was doing anything particularly revolutionary with it -- I mean, I wrote it from the heart for sure, so to speak, but I didn't feel like I was trampling through barriers with a flag raised or something -- but I've gotten a fair number of very touching responses to it from how people connected with it. I have no good comparison metric for the response, being pretty new to the short story market, but I would at least say that there do seem to exist people who are either very open to f/f relationships in fantasy or actively want them.
 
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Lillith1991

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*tiptoes into thread*

*points to second book cover in sig* :D (fantasy short story, a fairy tale subversion about Beauty and Red Riding Hood -- and their daughter -- many years later, and the link takes you to where you can read it for free on the publisher's website)

*tiptoes back out again*

*tiptoes back in to add . . .*

The story has had a fantastic response. I didn't feel like I was doing anything particularly revolutionary with it -- I mean, I wrote it from the heart for sure, so to speak, but I didn't feel like I was trampling through barriers with a flag raised or something -- but I've gotten a fair number of very touching responses to it from how people connected with it. I have no good comparison metric for the response, being pretty new to the short story market, but I would at least say that there do seem to exist people who are either very open to f/f relationships in fantasy or actively want them.

I have to say, I really really love your story SL. It has such emotion, and the bits of Rosa and Mei's relationship as seen by their daughter are very sweet.
 

Melanii

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KaiReader said:
Personally, I'd LOVE to see more books with f/f relationships! I'm not really a romance reader though, more SF/F... Perhaps that's because I don't relate well to 99% of romance characters?
It would be nice to read some stories that I can better relate to!

I don't read romance either. Like you, it's mainly SF/F. Having a f/f couple would just be awesome!

slhuang said:
*points to second cover in sig*

'Tis on my to-read list already! :3
 

absitinvidia

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It's funny you mention that. Isn't it stereotyped that guys LOVE when girls have fun with each other? D:

It's all so weird they *wouldnt* read f/f. XD


There is some f/f written by straight men, and you can usually identify them fairly quickly because they're written for the viewer (the reader) and the characters do ridiculous crap that real women don't (such as looking into a mirror and--holy Moses! She has breasts! Which apparently haven't been there since she reached puberty!). Men do like watching girls have fun with each other--but only when they're (a) attractive to men and (b) performing for a (male) audience.

(note: this is a huge generalization and somewhat tongue in cheek)
 

KaiReader

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Men do like watching girls have fun with each other--but only when they're (a) attractive to men and (b) performing for a (male) audience.

(note: this is a huge generalization and somewhat tongue in cheek)

Yeah you can tell it's written for a male audience when it's all about thrusting and phallic objects with little emotional intimacy :p
 

J.S.F.

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Yeah you can tell it's written for a male audience when it's all about thrusting and phallic objects with little emotional intimacy :p

---

Since writing two SF/F novels featuring a F/F relationship, I've run the gamut of responses from the lesbian audience, those saying that they don't mind reading stories written by men as long as they're well written (which I hope that I've done) and those who have declared they'd never read anything written by a man no matter how well it's written.

Can't say I blame the latter crowd. All I've ever asked for is a chance. Judge me on the book, not on my gender. I try to stay as respectful as possible to the subject matter and am keenly aware of offending people. Then again, I'm trying to sell a novel in which one of the main characters is a trans-woman, so I'll probably piss someone off there as well.

But a little respect goes a long way, and a lot of respect travels even further. JMO...
 

hrj

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Personally, I'd LOVE to see more books with f/f relationships! I'm not really a romance reader though, more SF/F... Perhaps that's because I don't relate well to 99% of romance characters?
It would be nice to read some stories that I can better relate to!

As someone who is writing SF/F with female same-sex relationships, I'll note my experience that you get a bit of a double-bind. There's a bit of an expectation from the lesbian readership that if there's a lesbian romance in a book (especially from one of the small presses), it will be at the very least "steamy" if not out and out erotica. So no matter how good a story you're putting out, you're going to trip over that expectation if (like me) you aren't writing erotica.

Conversely, from the readership who love SF/F and who would be open to reading good stories in that genre with lesbian characters, you're going to run into a perception that the quality of small press books simply isn't there. And you may have to fight to get your book taken seriously by serious SF/F fans.

It's probably easier to find what you're looking for by searching the output of the small specialty presses for the genres you're interested in--with the understanding that 95% of what they publish is contemporary romance, mystery, and erotica--and then judiciously using reading samples to see if it hits your sweet spot. Because searching through the output of mainstream publishers to try to guess which books might have central female relationships is a heckuva lot more work.
 

Isobel Lindley

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I am all for more lesbian representation in books by people regardless of gender identification, J.S.F., and kudos on it. But I also perfectly understand what KaiReader meant. Maybe can tell it's written by a man *for male titillation* would be more accurate? It sounds like that wouldn't apply to you, given your emphasis on respect.
 

J.S.F.

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I am all for more lesbian representation in books by people regardless of gender identification, J.S.F., and kudos on it. But I also perfectly understand what KaiReader meant. Maybe can tell it's written by a man *for male titillation* would be more accurate? It sounds like that wouldn't apply to you, given your emphasis on respect.

---

Isobel, I understand what KaiReader meant perfectly. I've read similar comments, and if I were a woman, regardless of orientation, then I'd be offended if some guy wrote a story about two women going at it using sex toys and whatnot for the express purpose of "male titillation" as you put it, or fetishistic fantasies, as others on different forums have said.

I have no doubt that there are books like that. I've never read them, for that simply isn't realistic in my mind; that's more in the realm of porn, and we all know how realistic that is.;) (Sarcasm intended)

Both my Lindsay/Jo novels have been published by Regal Crest which is an LGBTQ publisher. It's not big, but it strives to put out well-written books for the LGBTQ crowd. The owner knows full well I'm straight. So do her editors. It's not a secret. And if my work had ventured over the line into the fetishistic realm, believe me, they would not have accepted it.

With my adult F/F novel due out next year, there are a couple of very (IMHO) tame sex scenes. If my editor feels that something is inappropriate, she'll tell me to change it or cut it out, and I will. I am not here to offend anyone in the LGBTQ set nor do I wish to. I simply want to write the best story that I can and hope that people will buy it.

PS...If this sounds like I'm angry over your post, far from it. In fact, I greatly appreciate you taking the time to post your comment. This kind of dialogue, I feel, is necessary in order to help writers understand more fully different points of view so that they can improve and turn out a quality product...and become better people in the process.
 

Roxxsmom

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It's funny you mention that. Isn't it stereotyped that guys LOVE when girls have fun with each other? D:

It's all so weird they *wouldnt* read f/f. XD

I think they might read F/F erotica that's written to the male gaze, but not romance or stories with an all (or mostly) female cast, even if the emphasis is on something other than the actual relationship. Most of them would likely just assume that the story isn't *for* them, and yes (sigh), there's that "girls/women are boring because they only do boring girl/woman stuff" angle that some men (and women) still subscribe to.

There are agents out there who say they're looking for stories that present underrepresented voices and female protagonists, however. The only "cure" I can think of for this malaise is for there to be a greater and greater variety of interesting books out there, until this "girls are boring" thing is counter conditioned out of existence.
 
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ULTRAGOTHA

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Daughter of Mystery by Heather Rose Jones and My Real Children by Jo Walton both feature f/f relationships. The former is Fantasy set at the beginning of the 19th century, the latter AH SF set in the lifetime of a woman born just before
WWII.
 

Roxxsmom

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And much of MZB's stuff focused on relationships between women, romantic and friendships. I shudder to recommend her work after I learned about the whole thing with Breen and with her kids too, but those renunciates of darkover stories were popular in their day.

And Mercedes Lackey has some books (Vows and Honor trilogy) that focus on a buddy relationship (not romantic) between two women. I believe they were pretty popular.

So there are some out there.
 

ULTRAGOTHA

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Best f/f buddy books that are not romantic I have read are the Steerswoman books by Rosemary Kirstein.
 

The_Ink_Goddess

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Not directing this at anyone or anything in particular, but it's interesting to me that the thread opened with quotes from two YA authors and yet we've sort of moved into discussing erotica. Or perhaps I'm just imagining it to make my point. (Sorry for the blathering.)

It really, really pisses me off that lesbianism is automatically sexualised. Not just in the 'obvious' sense that it's "two girls having sex" (although of course it's not always - it's like being asexual is actually a thing, wow!), but the (very few) f/f relationships I've read seem to fall into two categories - very explicit stuff and incredibly PG stuff, nary a mention of bras, let alone vaginas. I've read YA m/f and m/m rape scenes with more details and that's seriously wrong. *shudder*

I will admit that I don't particularly like sex scenes - they just don't interest me - but they definitely have their place, so I don't mean to speak from any voice of authority AT ALL, but explicit f/f scenes make me uncomfortable only in the (wrong) context that I'm so used to seeing the female body sexualised for "masculine" pleasure - descriptions of how turned on the female characters are, very delicate gasping/moaning etc. - that I'm far more critical of them (and m/f, to be fair) than I am a m/m scene because I find it so hard to imagine somebody writing for a female reader and not for the male gaze. I want there to be more f/f relationships, and it galls me that all the 'iconic' pairs seem to be male (where are my tragic wonderful lesbians? where are they?) but I can't get away from the media lens.

There is a massive double standard. M/m YA books are more likely to be praised for their beautiful love stories; f/f YA books are most likely, at best, to be praised for their "brave representation." It's a complex issue, but I think it also stems from how much more generally acceptable the male body is. YA novels are constantly tearing off shirts, examining chests (as well as shoulders, ankles and just about every other part of the body you could conceive of), and describing penises (not explicitly, but I've read tons of descriptions of guys jerking off or getting hard - ugh) but the female body is nowhere to be seen. You'd think we all had smooth, sweet-smelling marble under our clothes, and nothing else. Also, as sad as it is to say, girls tend to have hella internalised poison about their bodies - describing ripped abs and swelling muscles is a fantasy, but rock-hard female abs are a sad failed comparison, slutty or pornographic.

[/incoherent rambling]
 
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Viridian

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This is random. But. If anyone here enjoys webcomics:

One of my favorite webcomics is Gunnerkrigg Court. It's a story about a young girl, Antimony, who is abandoned at a magical boarding school. Antimony is a really interesting character; unemotional, quiet, intelligent, observant. And the court is a strange place. Robots, monsters, ghosts, ect.

I thought it was a silly and boring at first, but it becomes incredibly emotional. And deep. And interesting. Nothing is as it seems, and the mysteries just keep getting more intricate.

It starts off a little slow. The artwork starts off like this:

viLRXPU.png

but as Antimony grows older, the artwork evolves with her.

rC7Uhrw.png

Anyway, I thought I'd mention it. It's not a romance, but one of the two protagonists develops an f/f relationship. Which was shocking and delightful, because I'm still not used to seeing LGBT representation unless the story is specifically about being LGBT. It was really pleasing to see it just... happen.

(And the worldbuilding is really interesting and original! And there are tons of female characters! Who are interesting and well-developed in diverse ways not limited by gender! And there is no weird, intrusive sexism!)
 
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Melanii

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I'm must admit something rather silly: when I read YA books with a main female character describing the guys with their abs and faces and muscles, I cringe. Do straight girls really see guys this way? I've never thought of a guy like that.

In fact, I find women more attractive than men. Which is why I want more f/f books. Sex scenes or not. Just a good story with a f/f couple. Yup!

I always read about m/m romances. Strangely, I laugh when I see shirtless "hunky" men on the covers of books. And I turn away.

I have plenty of ideas that could involve f/f love. I usually don't go through with it out of random fears. Being judged, having it feel forced, etc.

I dunno. :(
 

Viridian

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I'm must admit something rather silly: when I read YA books with a main female character describing the guys with their abs and faces and muscles, I cringe. Do straight girls really see guys this way? I've never thought of a guy like that.
IDK. I'm not a "straight girl," but I definitely notice muscle (on anyone). I remember when I was serving a customer at work, a guy came in with this shirt where the sleeves had been cut off (you know, like how people wear when they want to go to the gym). The holes nearly went down to the hem, and when he shifted just right, I could see his entire chest. He. Was. Ripped. I had to step into the back because I couldn't stop giggling stupidly. I mean, goddamn.

There are lots of things that can make a person attractive, though. Muscles are just one of them, and they're just a preference. I see a lot of preference for pretty boys as well. There are people who like Captain America because he's tall and muscley. There are people who like Loki because he's lithe and cruel. There's people who like Tony Stark because he's got a nice face and a smart mouth.
I always read about m/m romances. Strangely, I laugh when I see shirtless "hunky" men on the covers of books. And I turn away.
Me too. Covers suck. I find it amusing that you can usually determine the pairing by the cover: one naked male torso is m/f. Two naked male torsos is m/m. Two male torsos plus a sexy lady is m/m/f. Three naked male torsos is m/m/m. :roll: I still love the books inside, but the covers often make me cringe.
I have plenty of ideas that could involve f/f love. I usually don't go through with it out of random fears. Being judged, having it feel forced, etc.
I'm not going to lie, you're definitely going to have people criticize you for "forcing queer romance in where it doesn't make sense." Or "making the book suddenly about gay people." But if it's important to you, then it's important. And JMO, but writing what you want is worth the price.

And you can always go the route of working it into later books.
 

J.S.F.

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The last few posts from #41 onwards have some interesting points of view. I don't particularly care for sex scenes in any of my novels although I have written them, but not in a graphic manner. One, because they're YA (and it doesn't matter if I write straight YA or F/F YA) and two, because writing sex scenes, for me, is extremely difficult. Go too far in one direction, you run the risk of veering into pornography which I do NOT want to do, and too far in the other direction, you'll get readers saying "Too vague" or "Give us some more details."

Therefore, I keep it sort of chaste, pretty light, and let the reader figure it out. Is it necessary? No, not in any genre. I think it's perfectly fine to have couples, straight or otherwise, being buds and having a good time without sex to screw things up. ;)

As a guy, though, and as a straight guy, I'm keenly aware that if I do write F/F, and if there is a sex scene or two between them, then I run the risk of women (lesbian or straight) saying that I'm fetishizing the whole thing. I haven't had anyone say that yet, but all the same, I've been very careful not to get too deep into the whole description thing, lest I inadvertently offend someone.
 

TessB

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And then on the other end (she mused aloud, not sure of the core point she's making), you have those of us who are so sick of 'hearts and flowers and soft tender lighting' as the epitome of 'respectful' f/f sex scenes. Women's sexuality is so often presented as only animalistic in response to male desire, and so there's this whole thing that comes across as 'loving her for her mind' and removing that sexual gaze from a female love interest character.

I don't know. I've met women to whom my first instinctive response is "F*** - I want to rip her clothes off and bite the $&(( out of those biceps"... and men for whom that's also my first draw. Yay, Kinsey 3!

And yet while I can get scenes of the latter in books everywhere (as long as the heroine is carefully constructed so that she doesn't appear to be "a slut," of course...) the purely sexual gaze between female characters is sorely lacking. It's like we're still hanging on to the old Victorian ideals of women being asexual until and unless they're 'unleashed' by application of penis.

... I need more coffee.
 

Isobel Lindley

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I massively prefer the hearts and flowers and soft tender lighting, in fic and in real life. I don't think that means I have Victorian ideas of myself being asexual without a man, just that lovingness and connection and cuddles and gentleness are valued parts of my sexuality, and how my lesbianism is experienced, because I turn to women (a woman! happily married for years and years) for that. That doesn't make me any less of a sexual being. Perhaps the hearts and flowers are there appealing to those of us to whom it represents our sexuality, not because of any kind of censorship.

Maybe things have changed, but the last time I bought a "Best lesbian Erotica" type book (admittedly a long, long time ago) it was all about the sexual gaze and animalistic sex, which is why I didn't buy another. For me, personally, the stories were about as erotic as a girlie magazine, i.e. not at all. Presumably they worked just as well for some readers as they failed for me, just as it sounds like the kind of thing I enjoy reading is failing for you.

I guess I'm just trying to say that it's probably less of a conspiracy against depicting female sexuality independent of men as a case of different strokes.

TheInkGoddess, you speak my mind about a lot of things up in that post there.
 

TessB

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different strokes.

Heh.

(I'm an adult, I swear.)

Fair point -- I'm not thinking of it as a sign of overt censorship so much as long-held-over ideas about female sexual agency and sexual aggression that still permeate the landscape... Jokes about lesbian bed death, the serious lack of girl-on-girl-for-girl porn out there (other than Crash Pad, anyway. If anyone has other recs, hit me), the persistent myth that "men are visual, women aren't," as though we were all categorizable.

It all hits some of the same marks for me in terms of discontent with the options and the messages out there about alpha-style female sexuality. "Good girls play hard to get," and so on.
 

Isobel Lindley

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I can't judge your adulthood, I'm the one to have made the awful pun. :)

When I've seen references to lesbian bed death, it's generally been in the context of shaming women for not having sex the "right" way or "enough" and "why can't lesbians be more like gay men?" (Direct quote). It's part of policing female sexuality by determining what counts as real sex.

And I do see your points, too. I think it boils down to the fact that we are *always* going to be judged as getting it wrong; either too assertive or not enough. Because there's no man there to tell us how to do it right. :p

Basically I think we both agree that sexuality is a very individual thing, and also a culturally constructed one, and it sucks that people want to determine for us what is okay or normal about our desires. I just wanted to defend the hearts and flowers on the basis that, well, some of us just like that.
 

TessB

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I concede the point, and my unfair blanket categorization.

If I may be so bold as to presume, I think we agree on the ultimate solution as well - more queer ladies! All the queer ladies! Hearts and flowers queer and deep fisting with lube queer, femmes and stone butch and those who hate the false binaries. Once we have some mainstream variety, we'll all have a lot more choices of media.
 
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