Regarding F/F Couples in Lit...

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JimmyB27

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As a guy, though, and as a straight guy, I'm keenly aware that if I do write F/F, and if there is a sex scene or two between them, then I run the risk of women (lesbian or straight) saying that I'm fetishizing the whole thing. I haven't had anyone say that yet, but all the same, I've been very careful not to get too deep into the whole description thing, lest I inadvertently offend someone.
Another straight guy here with a f/f relationship in my WiP. It's a fantasy rather than a genre romance, so the relationship is just by the by, just like any straight romance in any other non-romance book.
I hope I'll avoid claims I'm fetishising, since I'm unlikely to have explicit sex scenes. Far too British for that sort of thing, whether it's straight, gay, or a dog humping a convenient leg.
 

Dave.C.Robinson

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I'm currently working on the second in a series of pulp action novellas, and it has an f/f relationship in it.

It wasn't something I'd necessarily planned. In fact, I'd say it simply grew out of the interaction of two characters. Because I'm writing pulp adventure, there isn't anything explicit in the book, so I'm trying to combine emotion with adventure.

I am finding it difficult to try and get right in some ways, because I'm not used to writing romance at all, but the characters deserve the best I can do, especially since as a 51 year old straight white male I don't have any first hand experience of an interracial lesbian relationship.

All I can do is focus on it as a relationship between two people, and try to treat them and the relationship with respect. I can certainly say I'm not focusing on the physical, but that's the nature of the story.
 

J.S.F.

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All I can do is focus on it as a relationship between two people, and try to treat them and the relationship with respect. I can certainly say I'm not focusing on the physical, but that's the nature of the story.

---

Agree with all this. If nothing is fetishized, and if the relationship is treated with honesty, then all should turn out well, assuming the writing is good. :) (And I'm sure your writing is)
 

The Seanchai

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F/F romance DOES sell, but it's not as popular (for wont of better term) than M/F stuff. That said, one thing I was always told as a writer is to write the book you want to read. If you want to read a book with a lesbian romance, then write it! That's how I got started writing lesbian fiction. *shrug*

As for recommendations: you could try anything by Malinda Lo. Holly Black has some good queer characters, too. Sarah Waters does some Historical Lesbian Romance stuff (not by usual jam, but they are good stories). Sarah Diemer has good fiction and she writes strictly lesbian fiction. :)
 

Lillith1991

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F/F romance DOES sell, but it's not as popular (for wont of better term) than M/F stuff. That said, one thing I was always told as a writer is to write the book you want to read. If you want to read a book with a lesbian romance, then write it! That's how I got started writing lesbian fiction. *shrug*

As for recommendations: you could try anything by Malinda Lo. Holly Black has some good queer characters, too. Sarah Waters does some Historical Lesbian Romance stuff (not by usual jam, but they are good stories). Sarah Diemer has good fiction and she writes strictly lesbian fiction. :)

Oh! New name! I looked her up and she seems promising, does mainly shorts I noticed. I've been looking for more collections and short stories to read.
 
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Neegh

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Val McDermid writes high quality detective mysteries where many of her characters are lesbian and gay. I would reccomend any novel in her collection. However, for a lesbian lead character try her, Lindsay Gordon series.

 

The Otter

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Because a lot -- a LOT -- of straight women read m/m novels. As, of course, do gay/bi men.

F/f is read largely by lesbians/bi women, and by a few straight women. And by a very, very few straight men. So, smaller readership = fewer sales = less profitable = fewer presses interested in f/f compared to m/m.

My (vague) understanding is that a lot of straight women read m/m because "one cock is good, two cocks are better!". They can put themselves into the characters and enjoy the experience of being 'the other'. Etc. Whereas, straight men may find f/m/f the ultimate fantasy, but f/f (where a man and his penis are wholly superfluous and unwanted) excludes them and therefore they are not interested in reading it.

Note, that's my take on it based on just a few random people's comments; I could well be dead wrong!

There are some straight men who are only interested in f/f if a man can join in. There are others who prefer f/f with no males involved because they're squicked by dicks, or because they just aren't interested in seeing another man in a romantic/sexual context, or because they prefer to identify with a female character rather than a male one. Depends on the individual.

I think the reason that f/f doesn't sell as well is simply because women are the primary readership for romance/erotica and there are more women who like m/m than f/f.
 
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Melanii

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Well I'm a different woman. I'm not find of m/m and love f/f!

The novel I'm writing (a new one) has the main character in love with her mistress, the Empress of an entire country. Finally I'm able to write my f/f story. She likes some guys too... Probably because I can't help but make her bi like me.

I'm actually debating when she should be reunited with her empress, considering it's been a year since they've been separated. D:
 

jae_s1978

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I actually know several writers who make a living writing lesbian fiction, myself included. With the right publisher, that's entirely possible.

My publisher's books usually feature strong, female characters who happen to be lesbians. If you'd like to check out their website:
http://www.ylva-publishing.com/
 

Emermouse

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My novel contains a F/F couple, though if we must split hairs, if you asked each, point black, about their sexuality, one would identify as bisexual, while the other is a proud lesbian. When I originally was crafting the characters and their relationship, I originally saw it as being one-sided with one character taking advantage of the other's feelings in order to get her to do stuff for her, but at some point, between the thinking and the typing, I ended up completely rewriting it. The girl (the bisexual one) eventually became more of a heroic character, who is genuinely in love with the other girl. It's probably for the best: I've heard so many complaints about the Depraved Bisexual trope. It's probably best to avoid that kettle of fish, so to speak.

Generally though, in my story, no one really raises an eyebrow about their relationship. Both because it's set in an undetermined point in the future and because it's a post-apocalyptic story. My general belief is that society is moving to the point where, whether you like it or not, gay couples will generally be accepted. I see at as being similar to the interracial relationship debate. Until Loving v. Virginia struck down laws against such relationships, the bigots used many of the same arguments against those relationships that the bigots of today use against gay marriage. That it's unnatural and if we let black people and white people marry each other, who knows what will happen, and all that BS. I'm not saying interracial couples don't still face difficulties, but as a general view, only the most lunatic of fringes goes around ranting and railing about how they shouldn't be allowed to marry. That's what I see happening with the gay marriage issue.

Also, in a post-apocalyptic setting, people are generally more concern with staying alive than with someone else's sex life. So no one really cares if said character is gay or straight or bi, so long as their love life doesn't affect them. There are bigger things to worry about.

But I freely admit that I wouldn't be comfortable writing sex scenes with my characters, but in general, I'd be squeamish about writing erotica about straight characters as well. Really, the most my characters do is kiss. To paraphrase George RR Martin, I am a typical American in that I am more comfortable writing about an axe sliding into someone's skull than a penis sliding into someone's vagina. I'm not going to say I'll never write sex scenes, because life has taught me that God loves nothing more than upsetting never statements, but right now, it seems unlikely.
 

TessB

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I've just sold my F/F/M poly triad romance (She Whom I Love -- currently set for December release) to Samhain, and the first two sex scenes in it are between the two women. Both women are sexually active with other women and would probably call themselves bisexual today, though those concepts of identity rather than act didn't entirely exist yet in the early 19th century.

If I were going to do the full set, I'd say that Sophie's bisexual and biromantic, Meg is a lesbian with some interest in men (call it a Kinsey 5 or so), and is primarily homoromantic, and James is straight and counting his blessings.

It's Regency, but like the Victorians, the law couldn't really conceive of women having sex with each other -- their 'unnatural lusts' aren't nearly as legally persecuted as those of the gay men of the time. Phallo-centric concepts of sex had their uses!

I do write detailed sex scenes, and rather gleefully at that. Though I do pass them off for read-throughs by a friend to help catch any logistical / gymnastic problems or missing limb issues. :D (whose what goes where, now?)
 

Melanii

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I have two projects going on right now, both with the main girl eventually in a relationship with another girl. Strangely, I seem to be making the main characters bisexual, like myself. Ah wells.

I'm glad to see that f/f is getting more noticed now. :D I much like the womens. XD
 

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I just sold a f/f romantic fantasy novel to Harmony Ink in March. From what I've noticed in terms of GoodReads trends, it does definitely seem like f/f sells better in genre fiction where the whole plot is not the romance, rather than in traditional romance.

I get that. Straight women are by far the biggest demographic consumers of romance. Though, as a queer lady, I'd LOVE to see more category lesbian romances.
 

Emermouse

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Maybe I'm being short-sighted or whatever, but whenever I hear anyone talking about how hard it is to write GLBT characters or PoC characters, I feel like saying this: "Here's how you do it. Create an interesting character. Make them GLBT or of color." Maybe I'm being glib, but that's really kind of how you do it. You fall in love with characters because they are interesting had have flaws and quirks, along with strengths and weaknesses that define who they are. Whether they like to sleep with the opposite sex or happen to have dark skin is kind of secondary. In fact, my general approach when writing GLBT or PoC characters is to say, "Yeah, they're black or gay or whatever" and get back to telling my story where they do stuff. Because that's what makes you fall in love with a character: their actions.

I do hope that isn't the wrong approach. I admit that I am white, female, and straight, so I may have stumbled into some pitfalls. But that's generally the approach I take when writing minorities: mention it and get back to the story. Because just as you don't vote for candidates based on whether they have a penis or a vagina, you don't fall in love with a character based on the color of their skin or their sexual orientation.
 

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I do agree with Evermouse that there seems to be a bit of a trend with creating characters, then deciding to try and make them 'interesting' through making them diverse. I think you can only create believeable diverse characters if they came to you in your mind that way organically, and their diversity is part of how you imagined them as a person.

Otherwise you get a bit of what I'm calling The Dumbledore Effect ... where the author randomly inserts: OH BTW GUYS, HE'S GAY! as an afterthought, almost? The diversity should seem organic, but doesn't have to be 'the focus' of the story.

Maybe I'm not making sense. It's early. I haven't had coffee.
 

J.S.F.

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Maybe I'm being short-sighted or whatever, but whenever I hear anyone talking about how hard it is to write GLBT characters or PoC characters, I feel like saying this: "Here's how you do it. Create an interesting character. Make them GLBT or of color." Maybe I'm being glib, but that's really kind of how you do it. You fall in love with characters because they are interesting had have flaws and quirks, along with strengths and weaknesses that define who they are. Whether they like to sleep with the opposite sex or happen to have dark skin is kind of secondary. In fact, my general approach when writing GLBT or PoC characters is to say, "Yeah, they're black or gay or whatever" and get back to telling my story where they do stuff. Because that's what makes you fall in love with a character: their actions.

I do hope that isn't the wrong approach. I admit that I am white, female, and straight, so I may have stumbled into some pitfalls. But that's generally the approach I take when writing minorities: mention it and get back to the story. Because just as you don't vote for candidates based on whether they have a penis or a vagina, you don't fall in love with a character based on the color of their skin or their sexual orientation.
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I'd agree with this. I'm the same, except that I'm a cisgender straight white guy who writes lesfic from time to time. I wrote my Lindsay/Jo characters as young women who happened to be lesbian as opposed to making the statement of "THEY'RE LESBIANS!" Story and character first...orientation wasn't really a factor. It just so happened that they were gay, met each other, had a boatload of adventures, and fell in love along the way. If the story is decent enough with an engaging plot and solid narrative, then I think many readers would groove to that kind of thinking. Of course, some readers will always get sort of squicky if they read about a same-sex relationship, but that's their opinion and they're entitled to it. *shrugs*
 

Viridian

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I do agree with Evermouse that there seems to be a bit of a trend with creating characters, then deciding to try and make them 'interesting' through making them diverse. I think you can only create believeable diverse characters if they came to you in your mind that way organically, and their diversity is part of how you imagined them as a person.
Just a thought, here...

The thing about diversity is that, for a lot of people, it doesn't come "organically." Straight, white, cisgender, and male are default settings. Unless there's a reason to make a character female, or queer, or PoC, or trans, then oftentimes they're just not. A person who never actively thinks about race, gender, or sexual orientation (you know, those people who smugly insist they're colorblind) is not unbiased.

Bias is unthinking and passive. Diversity is, by its very nature, an active decision.
I'd agree with this. I'm the same, except that I'm a cisgender straight white guy who writes lesfic from time to time. I wrote my Lindsay/Jo characters as young women who happened to be lesbian as opposed to making the statement of "THEY'RE LESBIANS!" Story and character first...orientation wasn't really a factor. It just so happened that they were gay, met each other, had a boatload of adventures, and fell in love along the way. If the story is decent enough with an engaging plot and solid narrative, then I think many readers would groove to that kind of thinking. Of course, some readers will always get sort of squicky if they read about a same-sex relationship, but that's their opinion and they're entitled to it. *shrugs*
You know, I just want to say that I appreciate you writing about queer ladies. I don't think it's squicky. The way you talk about your characters shows a lot of respect and empathy.
 
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J.S.F.

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ViridianChick, I try to bring as much empathy to the table as I can. With regards to Lindsay/Jo, I was very conscious from the outset of any stereotypes and wanted to avoid them as much as possible. In large part, I succeeded, and those who've read the novels commented at how natural the relationship was. They did comment on the narrative--i.e. it needs improvement and they were right, so I fixed it!--and other authorial issues, and only one person mentioned "he's a guy writing lesfic"...no one else seemed bothered by it.

Of course, there are some lesbian readers who don't like the idea of a straight guy writing lesfic and I understand their concerns. Furthermore, they have told me that they will never read anything written by a guy no matter how good others say the book is. *shrugs* Nothing I can do about that.

I was very lucky that my editor works for an LGBTQ press and also writes for them. She knows how to get the best out of me and I relied then as now on her input.
 

veinglory

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Lesbian romance is far more firmly divided into F/F and by-and-for lesbian fiction. I think this is part of the reason why it had a smaller overall presence, although belle and bold strokes normally have a good showing at any chain book store
 

J.S.F.

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Lesbian romance is far more firmly divided into F/F and by-and-for lesbian fiction. I think this is part of the reason why it had a smaller overall presence, although belle and bold strokes normally have a good showing at any chain book store
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Interesting that you mention that. I read somewhere that the majority of M/M books are written by women--straight women. If that's true, I wonder if gay guys get upset when they know that a novel has been written by a woman as opposed to a guy with the experience and writing skills.
 

Dave.C.Robinson

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Maybe I'm being short-sighted or whatever, but whenever I hear anyone talking about how hard it is to write GLBT characters or PoC characters, I feel like saying this: "Here's how you do it. Create an interesting character. Make them GLBT or of color." Maybe I'm being glib, but that's really kind of how you do it. You fall in love with characters because they are interesting had have flaws and quirks, along with strengths and weaknesses that define who they are. Whether they like to sleep with the opposite sex or happen to have dark skin is kind of secondary. In fact, my general approach when writing GLBT or PoC characters is to say, "Yeah, they're black or gay or whatever" and get back to telling my story where they do stuff. Because that's what makes you fall in love with a character: their actions.

I do hope that isn't the wrong approach. I admit that I am white, female, and straight, so I may have stumbled into some pitfalls. But that's generally the approach I take when writing minorities: mention it and get back to the story. Because just as you don't vote for candidates based on whether they have a penis or a vagina, you don't fall in love with a character based on the color of their skin or their sexual orientation.

I know I mentioned having some difficulty with writing it (I've now finished the story and had good feedback on the depiction of the relationship), but that wasn't so much because it was a same sex romance as it was simply because I don't normally write romance, period. In the end it came down to answering the question of why were these two characters interacting with each other the way they were, and following from there.
 

veinglory

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Oh yes, they very much do, but not as many and not as emphatically (with a few exceptions). So that gay male romance and M/M have a heavy overlap whereas lesbian romance and F/F do not.
 

Roxxsmom

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I'm a straight female, and while I might not seek out F/F erotica, I certainly wouldn't shy away from reading a genre fantasy novel or work of contemporary fiction where the main character is a lesbian or bisexual woman and has or develops a relationship with another woman. A well done romantic subplot, or simply an existing partnership, in a story is something I enjoy, regardless of the genders involved. I don't generally read regular genre fiction with a desire to insert myself into any romantic situations that might exist in the story, but to connect with and relate with characters who are different from me in some ways. I can be very happy for a couple in a story and be interested with their story without wanting to be either of them.

Now stories that are specifically romance or erotica might be different, but if the story's well told, then maybe it would work for me on that level too.
 

hrj

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I'm a straight female, and while I might not seek out F/F erotica, I certainly wouldn't shy away from reading a genre fantasy novel or work of contemporary fiction where the main character is a lesbian or bisexual woman and has or develops a relationship with another woman.

I think this is a key element to keep in mind. Romance, and even more so erotica, tends to draw a readership that specifically identifies with the characters and situations. (Hence the profusions of highly specific and clearly labelled sub-genres.) In contrast, either contemporary or genre fiction where the primary focus is on the genre itself tends to be more accessible to a general readership.

Often when people talk about "f/f" or "lesfic" they specifically mean (or are understood to mean) works that focus strongly on the romantic or sexual elements, and that type of book will necessarily have a more narrowly targeted market. Quite frankly, it's one of the reasons why I never label my books as "f/f" or "lesfic" except when talking specifically to lesbian audiences. Because within that narrower usage of the terms, those labels aren't a good communication of the content and target readership of the books.

The flip side of this is that some of the people who are the core readership for f/f and lesfic (in the narrower sense) aren't interested in books--even ones with lesbian characters--that don't have erotic content. Whereas others are interested more broadly in stories that "just happen" to involve lesbian characters, but don't think to look outside those category labels.

It's complicated.
 
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