Simultaneously querying agents and submitting to small presses

dascmom said:

I have been querying agents for the past three weeks and have so far received all personal rejections that express interest but say that ultimately the project is just not right for them. (Does it mean anything that rejections are not form letters? random question)

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Those sound like form letters to me...

Are these based on the query only? Or have you gotten partial/full requests, then rejections? If you have queried several agents and not gotten any requests to see the manuscript, then I suggest working on the query...maybe post it in QLH.

dascmom said:

Is it ethical to simultaneously query agents and to submit to small presses. There are several schools of thought. There is the "cast a wide net" school and there is the "it wastes agents/small presses valuable time and is just plain wrong" school. (I am only referring to agents and small presses who allow for multiple submissions, of course.)

I have a completed manuscript. I have been querying agents for the past three weeks and have so far received all personal rejections that express interest but say that ultimately the project is just not right for them. (Does it mean anything that rejections are not form letters? random question) There are many agents I have not yet heard from. The manuscript is burning a hole in my pocket. I have published 9 books at a small press and I feel that my books' exposure is limited, which is why I decided to seek an agent, but I have my eye on a step-up from my usual presses small press, and I am having trouble not sending my submission to them. Also, time is passing and I want to make a decision about where this book is going. I feel that maybe I'm wasting time by not subbing to this small press I am really interested in.

Any thoughts? THANK YOU!!

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Just my thoughts for what they're worth:

Three weeks is nothing. Many people here have been trying to land an agent for years. (I'm one of them.) On the other hand, I sympathize with that need to know if the awesome manuscript you just finished polishing is the one that will make it. But unless you are incredibly lucky to find an agent who both loves it and reads incredibly fast, you won't know for several months or more.

Submitting to small presses at the same time is not advised, as you're closing off markets that your future agent might be able to get you into later. You can, however, feel free to send out as many queries as you like, as long as you're not sending queries to multiple agents at the same agency at the same time.

On the rejection letters, if they are personal, that's awesome and definitely a good sign. The only bad thing is that form letters can be tricky to identify. I just got one today from an agent's assistant that read something like, "Mr. Agent has read your submission and asked me to reply to you." It sounds personal, but when you think about it, presumably Mr. Agent has asked his assistant to reply to all the queries he's not pursuing any further. ^_^ So it's still a form rejection, just a nicely worded one. In fact, I've started assuming that unless the letter goes so far as to name specific elements that only apply to my story (as opposed to generic comments like "your concept and/or writing is interesting"), I assume it's a form rejection and think nothing more of it than that.

(BTW, if you're re-reading and thinking maybe some of them weren't personal at all, that's not automatically a bad sign. Some agents write personal notes on rejections and some don't, even if they thought the submission had a lot of promise. It's a matter of personal preference and not a reflection on you in any way. Another sign of a genuine reply: a request that you send the agent your future work.)

Hope this is helpful.

Don't submit to presses if you're submitting to agents. Just don't do it. If you come to a point where you give up on the agent hunt, then submit to publishers. If you get an agent, they will want to query publishers. It's bad form to query publishers when seeking an agent.

KTC said:

Don't submit to presses if you're submitting to agents. Just don't do it. If you come to a point where you give up on the agent hunt, then submit to publishers. If you get an agent, they will want to query publishers. It's bad form to query publishers when seeking an agent.

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I'm doing it.

I queried a bunch of agents. A shitload. Got some bites, waiting on a couple who have the full. But my novel is going to be a tough sell, no doubt. And I figure, I am giving myself every chance. After working my last query, somebody suggested I try some indie publishers. So I did that, and shall continue to do that, even as I seek agents. I figure it can't hurt. I'm being extremely judicious in choosing publishers, sending just a few queries out and right now, the full is being considered by a couple.

This is a risk, I know that. But bad form? My thinking is, if a publisher decides to take it on, that's great. If an agent takes it on, I shall provide the short list of indie publishers I've queried. I don't want to step on toes but on the same token, my thinking is, nothing ventured. Hoping it works, one way or the other. We'll see how it goes. . .

Many small presses will respond quickly and simultaneously making the submitting to agents at best a waste if time.

dascmom said:

kkbe- I feel the same way you do but the response to this question when I googled it was like five to one- Five saying- No!! Don't Do it and One Saying- Why not? If they allow simultaneous submissions, I really can't see how it is different. All of the agents and small presses have a lot to read through, and they are all getting a chance to read it and offer for it. I really would prefer an agent or this one particular small press. I might query the one small press- if they accept it I will tell any agents who are interested in my manuscript and who I am interested in that I have an interested publisher before I draw up a contract with the publisher.

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If you want a career in publishing, you will need to learn patience. You might as well start now.

If you want the best for your book, that you worked so hard on, why won't you even give it more than 3 weeks?

And how do you know this small press is the best place to publish your book? Since you are already querying agents, why not give it more than three weeks, and then if an agent is interested, you can talk with that agent about whether the small press should be included in your submissions list.

But if you query this small press, and they make an offer, unless they are a well-known, advance paying small press, you are unlikely to be able to use that to find an agent.

It just boggles my mind that you would put s much effort into a manuscript, and then not give it the best chance it has to be published well (which may or may not include the small press) because you are impatient.

While you are sending queries and waiting to hear, start working on something else. It's going to make you more attractive as a prospective client to agents and as a prospective author to publishers, if you are working on something else, as well.

~suki

I queried about a hundred agents with three of my books, and got nowhere until I started querying small presses. I got all three books published without an agent. Plus, I had a lot of input on the cover design, higher royalties, etc. It wasn't until I got a four-book contract offer that I finally landed an agent. I think you should do whatever feels right to you. There is no one way that works the same for everyone - you have to carve your own path. I say go for it.

dascmom: kkbe- I feel the same way you do but the response to this question when I googled it was like five to one- Five saying- No!! Don't Do it and One Saying- Why not? If they allow simultaneous submissions, I really can't see how it is different. All of the agents and small presses have a lot to read through, and they are all getting a chance to read it and offer for it. I really would prefer an agent or this one particular small press. I might query the one small press- if they accept it I will tell any agents who are interested in my manuscript and who I am interested in that I have an interested publisher before I draw up a contract with the publisher.

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I didn't start querying small publishers until the agent pool was getting thin--I spent, quite literally, months querying agents first. With my latest novel, I am querying agents, period. For now.

I know Janet Reid is really against querying both agents and publishers at the same time. I understand her reasoning. In my case, like I said, agents weren't biting or, if they did, they took a pass. Generally speaking, that is. Like I said, two have the full now.

I gave it a grand shot going the agent route before taking a chance with indie publishers. And I am very mindful of the fact that every indie publisher I query is one less possible publisher an agent might shop my novel to. That's why I didn't do that right away.

And yeah, I started writing that next novel whilst querying agents. That just makes sense, work the new while shopping the old. You have to patient, for sure. One of the editors who has my full now tweeted that he has over 300 thingies in his email inbox yet to read. . .

I think the problems come when people make a decision that differs from that commonly held wisdom without understanding it. But you do understand the plusses and minuses of doing it the way you want to do it anyway and have a plan for handling the possible results. I don't see a problem with it.

It's pretty concerning to see you wanting to throw your work out there so fast in the hopes of placing it as soon as possible. It's a hasty decision that might leave you very unsatisfied. Especially knowing how you've been through this with other small presses. You yearn for more, because you're not getting the kind of treatment you want for your book.

It takes a lot of time (so be prepared) to research the best places for your work. Agents should be looked at first. If you can go as long as possible, maybe give yourself a time frame. Say, if this doesn't happen in such and such time, I'm going to submit to publishers.

It is SO not worth it to take this route. And it's highly advised for you not to take the route for a reason. Because nine times out of ten, (as I said before) it will leave the writer unsatisfied, maybe even dampen their writing all together and cause them to quit. It's extremely frustrating for me to see SO many small presses that add up to a whole lot of nothing. Please, whatever you do, be careful and cautious of what you sign. Because once you do, you've sealed the fate of that book. It's a mind boggling mess to get out of.

It's a good idea if you assume the first to respond is the one you want.

Ethical? Whatever. I don't think ethics really enter into it.

But, wise? I'd say no. What do you want for your writing? Do you want it to be represented by an agent and sold to a larger press, or do you want to sell it yourself to a smaller press? There's no right answer to that question in general, but surely there's a right answer for YOU, and for this book.

Slow down. Give yourself a chance to explore whichever option is your favourite, and THEN, if the first option doesn't work out, pursue the second. But mixing the two together doesn't make sense to me.

Just wanted to add about the bigger/smaller press thingie (yeah, I can write all kinds of nifty woids, esp. when I'm tired. . . what was I saying? )

Oh yeah. I purposefully have been looking at indies, as opposed to the bigger publishers. For me, money would be great but it's not the main draw (I don't think) and I already know--first novel, chances are I won't be getting too much dough, regardless. I just don't want my novel to get lost in the cracks. I want somebody who is willing to take a chance on a chancy book, who'll champion that thing as much as I will. Trying to find the right fit; of course, we're all doing that, I think, in one way or another, finding our niche. . .

Okay, stepping off the soap box before I fall off.

If you want an agent, query agents. Don't make their job harder by querying publishers too.

kkbe said:

Oh yeah. I purposefully have been looking at indies, as opposed to the bigger publishers. For me, money would be great but it's not the main draw (I don't think) and I already know--first novel, chances are I won't be getting too much dough, regardless. I just don't want my novel to get lost in the cracks. I want somebody who is willing to take a chance on a chancy book, who'll champion that thing as much as I will. Trying to find the right fit; of course, we're all doing that, I think, in one way or another, finding our niche. . .

Okay, stepping off the soap box before I fall off.

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You're looking at this wrong.

The chance of being paid a big advance has nothing to do with debut status; and the odds are different for every single book. Some novels have no chance of earning a big advance, while others have a really strong chance of it happening, and it's all to do with quality--not the author's publishing status.

First novels don't usually get smaller advances because they're first novels; they get smaller advances because they're usually not so good.

If your book is brilliant it's got a great chance of earning you a whopper of an advance. If it's not so good, then nope, it's not going to do this.

The size of the publisher doesn't affect whether or not your editor will champion your book: what matters is how much they love it.

dascmom said:

Thank you, Fruitbat. I have thought it out- what would happen if I hear first from an agent and if I hear first from the one publisher I submit to. And I have thought about if I am rejected by all. Thank you for encouraging me. I need it.

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Have you thought about what would happen if you submitted it to the small press, were rejected, landed an agent and the agent said, 'oh, this would be perfect for small press; I know an editor there really well.'

Or if you were accepted by the press and the agent and the agent said 'I think this would be perfect for Editor X at Other House, because Y and Z, which small house couldn't compete with,' but you'd already told small house yes?

Whatever you decide to do, don't do it because you're impatient.

Old Hack said:

First novels don't usually get smaller advances because they're first novels; they get smaller advances because they're usually not so good.

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I know my little voice doesn't count for much but I'm going to disagree.

I would assume if someone likes a book enough to pay it an advance (even one some might consider modest), the book is far from "not so good." You know I think most of your advice is awesome, Old Hack, but to me, this is a bit insulting to anyone here who is quite proud of their advance, even if it didn't hit those big figures we all dream about. Also, if a book that got an advance is not so good, what does that make the manuscripts that have not gotten an advance yet? I choose to believe that good books can still struggle to find a home sometimes. Because I don't buy the argument that I (or anyone else who got really close, but didn't quite make it) haven't written anything good yet.

Old Hack said:

If you want an agent, query agents. Don't make their job harder by querying publishers too.



You're looking at this wrong.

The chance of being paid a big advance has nothing to do with debut status; and the odds are different for every single book. Some novels have no chance of earning a big advance, while others have a really strong chance of it happening, and it's all to do with quality--not the author's publishing status.

First novels don't usually get smaller advances because they're first novels; they get smaller advances because they're usually not so good.

If your book is brilliant it's got a great chance of earning you a whopper of an advance. If it's not so good, then nope, it's not going to do this.

The size of the publisher doesn't affect whether or not your editor will champion your book: what matters is how much they love it.

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Realistically, don't most of the bucks big houses spend go to the well-known names? Paying them, paying advertising, the whole bit. I know there are exceptions, of course there are. But generally speaking, I think that's the case.

Smaller presses publish fewer novels, and some of them--the ones I'm targeting--seem more receptive to a novel like mine. If my novel gets picked up by one of them, I'm hoping it might get a little more of that attention. It's a gamble for them and me. Of course, you can say that about any publisher and any novel. . .

Like I said, I didn't even consider querying indie publishers until I found myself running out of possible agents. I figured at that point, try a new tactic. And while the agent pool is becoming slim pickins, it isn't quite exhausted so I'm leaving no stone unturned.

I do realize this is unconventional and not recommended by a lot of savvy folks who know their stuff. Maybe it'll come back and bite me in the ass. At this point, I'm willing to take that risk.

Forgive the long-winded response and derail.

It's a brutal business. I've seen so many different pathways for writers to get their work published, I have to say the more I learn the less I know.

Some have been working for years submitting to agents and publishers, following the "rules," and gotten nowhere. Some landed an agent in an impossibly short period of time; and some of those never succeeded in getting their work placed. Some landed a contract with a small press in an impossibly short time. Some (like myself) waited seven months to hear back from a small press and start moving toward the contract phase.

None of that is to discount the good advice above. In fact, what I would underline is patience. I'm also one of those writers who spent years querying about 100 agents. At times, I've felt it was a colossal waste of time. But during those years, I honed my work and honed my pitch and query, and I wouldn't have found publishers if I hadn't spent that time improving my craft and marketing savvy. You also do a lot of good networking during that process if you share your experiences with others, via forums like this, conferences, writing groups, etc.

I can understand why it feels like a tough pill to swallow, but your time waiting on those agents and small presses can be well spent.