Marrying princesses off

Jacob_Wallace said:

I wanted to write a semi-realistic fairy tale where the princess is treated more like property (has a happy-ish ending though). I got everything but the opening scene.

I was having the two kings have dinner together, and one brings the topic of the other's daughters. He explains he has three single daughters, the eldest is in her twenties so he tries to get the other king to take her for his son. The other king is adamant about the youngest (the protagonist).

What could he offer the king to make him agree to take the youngest instead of the eldest? I was thinking money, but that seems a bit too straightforward for royalty.

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The money would traditionally be coming with the princess in the form of a dowry--if the king were really adamant about getting a particular princess he could say he would take a reduced dowry. So he wouldn't be shelling out cash, just accepting less.

Or it could be something less tangible--reduced tariffs or other more favorable trade agreements, or a promise to sign agreement to come to other king's aid if a third country attacks.

Cosimo, Grand Duke of Florence in the 16th century, turned down the older daughter of the Viceroy of Naples, who was ugly and stupid, in favor of the younger, beautiful daughter, and accepted a dowry that was less than half the amount offered for the older daughter.

There's nothing wrong with a mercenary arrangement.

Especially if part of the dowry was in the form of land.
"I'll take the youngest one, and you may keep that duchy that makes up our mutual border."

A lot depends on the balance of power between these 2 kings. Are they equals? Marriage alliances were all about strategy. A weaker king would never dare request the daughter of a stronger king, even if he offered a fortune for her. The request itself would be an insult. By the same token, a stronger king would never marry a daughter off to anyone unless there was something in it for him strategically. Princesses may have been property, but they were very valuable property.

Does the other king have any other sons that he could offer for the older princess? Could be a good incentive.

Sorry, this thread makes me think of Monty Python. She has vast...tracts of land.

MM

Littlebit66 said:

Does the other king have any other sons that he could offer for the older princess? Could be a good incentive.

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Actually no, not a good incentive at all.

1. That would be two dowries to the same King (father in law).

2. That would be two girls on the same alliance instead of spreading it around to get two alliances. You also want to be very careful on alliances - look at the start of World War 1 and the chain reaction of having to support allies.

3. The younger sister would then be senior to the older sister in the father-in-law's court. Not happy family time.

Not all princesses were married off. George 3rd had nine sons and six daughters and three daughters didn't marry.

A lot depends on the relative status of the 2 kings, the nature of their prior relationship, the strategic importance of the alliance to each of them, and the terms of the deal (i.e. the dowry).

If the king with the daughters is in a superior position (more powerful kingdom, senior title, wealthier, etc.) he either wants the alliance with the suitor for reasons of his own, or is being generous/condescending to permit the offer in the first place. If he wants the alliance badly enough the suitor may be able to bargain for the bride of his preference by offering some other concessions on top of the original terms. Otherwise, he'd better offer something really amazing or the father-king will be insulted and refuse him altogether.

On the other hand, if the suitor is starting off in the superior position, he can probably pick his princess as one of his starting requirements for the alliance, and just not accept any substitution regardless of how attractive the offer. In that case the father-king will have the choice of giving in or refusing the alliance altogether.

In royal marriage negotiations, money is always a factor. So is land (which represents an income stream & a source of manpower as well as a physical asset). The pre-existing alliances and strategic dependencies of the parties are also important considerations. So are dynastic interests.

For example: in the 16-17c the dominant rivalry in Europe was between France & Spain. In the context of almost continuous warfare (or proxy warfare) the French & Spanish royal houses intermarried repeatedly (to the point of genetic catastrophe for Spain). Both sides also used marriage to attract & bind alliances with smaller clients around Europe, e.g. England, Sardinia/Savoy, Bavaria & other German states.

Isn't it true that in some cultures one would never think of 'allowing' a younger daughter to marry unless/until her older sisters were all well-situated? If a king really and truly wanted the youngest daughter, then it would behoove him to assist the girl's father in finding husbands for the older girls - or he'd enlist a female relative to do the same. Surely they could dig up a friend, knight, or elderly widowed uncle and get them married off so the younger girl would be next one up available for them.

I think, as Ben said, that it would come down to the status of the kings. If the king who wants the young one is far more powerful and wealthy than the father king, he'll get whichever daughter he wants. Obviously he will take politics into account in his decision but if he's fallen in love, who is going to tell him no?

jaksen said:

Isn't it true that in some cultures one would never think of 'allowing' a younger daughter to marry unless/until her older sisters were all well-situated? If a king really and truly wanted the youngest daughter, then it would behoove him to assist the girl's father in finding husbands for the older girls - or he'd enlist a female relative to do the same. Surely they could dig up a friend, knight, or elderly widowed uncle and get them married off so the younger girl would be next one up available for them.

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No, it's not true, though it has often served as a plot point—Taming of the Shrew, for example.

jaksen said:

Isn't it true that in some cultures one would never think of 'allowing' a younger daughter to marry unless/until her older sisters were all well-situated? If a king really and truly wanted the youngest daughter, then it would behoove him to assist the girl's father in finding husbands for the older girls - or he'd enlist a female relative to do the same. Surely they could dig up a friend, knight, or elderly widowed uncle and get them married off so the younger girl would be next one up available for them.

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Again - Princesses are assets.

If inheritance of throne can go down the female line after they've run out of male line, then it usually goes in order of seniority. So the unwanted older sister has more political worth than the younger.


One other thought - would two Kings have the conversation? Wouldn't they exchange ambassadors and have ambassadors talk to ministers? Big loss of face for Kings themselves if negotiations go belly up. King Henry 8 sent an ambassador to negotiate for Anne of Cleeves.
I do remember that Queen Elizabeth 1 was courted in person by the Dauphin of France - but there were all sorts of polite fictions of him not really being at the court and being referred to by one of his lesser titles (probably Duc of something)

Bolero said:

One other thought - would two Kings have the conversation? Wouldn't they exchange ambassadors and have ambassadors talk to ministers?

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Of course the negotiations would be conducted by ambassadors, ministers, & envoys. It would be extremely irregular (as well as unnecessary) for a king to do it himself. There's no need for the 2 kings ever to meet, unless they want to have a highly ceremonial meeting to ratify the terms that have already been settled.

Since the OP's scenario has one of the king's strongly preferring the youngest princess, they have presumably become acquainted somehow. But in general, with royal marriages, that's also extremely optional until the wedding -- or after it, in case of a proxy.

Occasions where kings did meet and negotiate in person were always highly unusual, and usually had a poor outcome. See for example the meeting of Henry VIII & Francois I at the Field of the Cloth of Gold. And the madcap escapade of young Charles I of England (while still Prince of Wales) who went to Spain incognito to court an Infanta (culmination of 10 years of negotiation) and came home with his tail between his legs and a determination for war with Spain and a French alliance.

Are you assuming a European-inspired setting for your story? If you make it an Asian one, the rules may be a bit different. Though the relative power of the two kings would still be crucial.

In some cultures betrothals happened in childhood, long before either party was of marriageable age.