Preditors and Editors - Outdated?

ghost:
They still believe that all writers are still seeking the same tired old contracts from mass-market publishers who give you absolutely no control over editing or book cover design, and pay you a nickel a book if you're lucky, who will pull your title out of bookstores within a month and not release rights back to you for five years, if you're one of the one in a thousand (maybe) that they deem worthy enough

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Sounds like this person has absolutely no idea how commercial publishing works.

A commercial publisher will pay you an advance for your book - that's money in the bank that you get prior to the book being released. I would suggest that most people who receive an advance of "only" a couple of hundred quid, still find themselves financially better off than authors who self-publish - even if they don't earn out that advance and get into royalties.

A person who goes down the self-publishing route has to pay for everything - copies of their book, marketing, design etc etc. Having control over editing or book cover design is worth diddly squat if you don't have a clue what you're doing in the first place - witness the huge number of self-published books with crappy clip art and basic English mistakes that make your eyes bleed.

The other thing to bear in mind that those very few self-published books that have gone big, have done so because they've been picked up by a commercial publisher. If you self-publish, then you're lucky if you can shift even 500 books and you will be doing well to break even on that, let alone make a profit.

Self-publishing works if you know the risks when you go into it and have planned accordingly or if you're releasing a book with a small, specialised market that you can readily access. Sadly though, my feeling is that too many people go into self-publishing because they think it's a short-cut to getting the quids-in The Shack type deal and then they find themselves in for a nast shock.

Finally, some people go with a publisher not realising that what they're signing up to is essentially self-publishing. They're sold certain things as being normal practice and then get a nasty shock as to the reality.

P&E is a good resource that can help writers who start off prepared to do their research on a company, although it shouldn't be the only resource that authors use to check up on a publisher.

MM

The truth is, with the advent of devices like Kindle and I-pad and Nook, a new digital publishing paradigm is throwing a wrench in the works of traditional publisher

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Just to add - Kindle, iPad and Nook (which is a new one on me, but then I am a Luddite) may be popularising the take-up of electronic books and invigorating a debate on epublishing rights, returns and conditions of use, but "throwing a wrench in the works of a traditional publisher"? I'm not convinced. The big publishers are already adapting their business models to encompass epublishing rights and while certain big names like Ian McEwan might be taking advantage of going to places like Kindle direct, remember that they built their reputations on print sales and critical acclaim through the print media - which is precisely why their epublishing rights were so heavily solicited.

The problem with epublishing is this: how does anyone know about your book when there are thousands and thousands of other ebooks out there on that medium?

Commercial publishers have big marketing budgets and they're doing a hell of a lot of work at the moment to strategise publicity and marketing for their authors on the web. I met some of the marketing bods at S&S UK a couple of weeks ago and the initiatives that they're putting into play and the resources that they're commiting is pretty impressive. It's difficult to see how anyone who self-publishes can compete with that, given how difficult it is to establish an effective web presence.

MM

Oh, good. The more people who buy into this attitude, the less slush there is for the real agents and publishers to wade through.

I call this a win for real writers.

Memento Mori, the Nook is the Barnes & Noble e-reader. It's a little slower than the Kindle, but I like a lot of its features. How long has it been since you visited your local B&N in person? There's a good chance you'll find a big chunk of their prime floorspace is now taken up by the Nook/ebook department. They're making a major investment in customer service and in-person browsing.

You know how for years now, the ebook has been the recordholder for publishing model that has the most disproportionate ratio of words expended on it per copies sold? That's finally changed. Sales are really taking off. B&N has the Nook, Apple has its iBook operation, and Amazon's launching versions of the Kindle software for a bunch of platforms other than its own dedicated reader. It's just remarkable to watch. Nothing changes quickly in book publishing, except when it does, and then it's epochal. We're living in interesting times.

However, the person Ghost quoted at the beginning of the thread is still wrong. Look at the shape of the rant. It's the same one we've seen a zillion times now, announcing that the advent of POD publishing/self-publishing/author self-promotion is throwing a wrench into the et cetera of traditional publishing. (Actually, it's a little more outdated than most of 'em. Mass market isn't precisely dead, but its glory days have passed.) It even has the traditional bitter remark about conventional publishers being too choosy ("if you're one of the one in a thousand (maybe) that they deem worthy enough"), signifying that the author's book was rejected.

No such wrench has been thrown. The conventional publishing houses are scrambling like crazy to get their frontlists and backlists converted into ebooks, and legal departments are likewise scrambling to figure out who's used what language to convey which rights in contracts that in some cases are decades old. It all makes me passionately sorry that Ian Ballantine isn't around, because I'd love to hear his comments on how this compares with the paperback revolution. Nevertheless, in the midst of all this excitement I haven't seen any evidence that the sudden boom in ebook sales is changing readers' tastes, though it's altering their decision-making processes just a tad. Readers still don't want to read sub-par self-published books, or books that might as well be self-published. Also as usual, the exception continues to be tightly focused nonfiction wiith a well-defined target audience.

One hesitates to refer to the eternal verities as eternal verities; but you know, they're holding pretty steady.

miamyselfandi said:

Oh, good. The more people who buy into this attitude, the less slush there is for the real agents and publishers to wade through.

I call this a win for real writers.

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YES! Let them all self-publish!

I don't know what's wrong with you lot.

I take my 2 lb cuneiform tablet with the 150 words I'm currently reading, a 1 lb block of damp clay, and three reeds everywhere I go.

This whole modern thing of books and pages -- it won't last.

miamyselfandi said:

Oh, good. The more people who buy into this attitude, the less slush there is for the real agents and publishers to wade through.

I call this a win for real writers.

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What she said. Somehow this guy has managed to step on his johnson with both feet, and is trying to convince himself he's dancing.

HapiSofi:
How long has it been since you visited your local B&N in person? There's a good chance you'll find a big chunk of their prime floorspace is now taken up by the Nook/ebook department.

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Erm ... probably about 6 years because that's the last time I went to the States. We don't have B&N in the UK, more's the pity - just Waterstones, whatever WH Smith decide to stock and the independents.

Honestly, first time I heard about the Nook was on ghost's post. But good to know anyway - over here you hear about the Kindle, the Sony Ereader and the iPad and that's about it.

Medievalist:
I take my 2 lb cuneiform tablet with the 150 words I'm currently reading, a 1 lb block of damp clay, and three reeds everywhere I go.

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Three reeds? What, are you made of money? No one likes a show-off, you know ...

MM

I will say that the Kindle has changed some of the basics of the industry. When our latest book came out, we sold over 1,000 copies by Kindle in the first two weeks. That's nothing to sneeze at. Of course, it didn't match the print sales, but still...

Momento Mori said:

Three reeds? What, are you made of money? No one likes a show-off, you know ...

MM

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I grow my own. They're completely organic. They're right across from the Cyperus papyrus plants.

callalily61 said:

Medievalist, I you. I've made my own goose-quill pens, but I cheated and wrote with them on regular 20-lb printer paper. I hang my head in shame.

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If you take paleography and codicology classes, they make you start with partially ready sheepskin; you have to scrape, stretch and trim it.

The cuneiform stuff happened because I helped with a really neat database of cuneiform tablets, and they thought it would be good if the scans weren't upside down . . .

callalily61 said:

About the B&N floor space: I was in my local B&N last week buying AWer's Tasmin21's and Kasey MacKenzie's books. There was a Nook display right when you walked in the door. It was about 5 feet wide and 3 feet deep. The rest of the THOUSANDS of square feet of the floor was books, books, books, plus the coffee shop in the corner and the music/magazine displays. Conclusion obvious.

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I haven't been to one yet--it's on my list. I've seen pretty every ereader but the Nook at this point, and am curious.

P&E is always ready to list new publishers and related businesses. However, I hang my head in shame that P&E only updates itself once each day rather than every hour.

Owen Glendower: I can release my novels on the Nook!

Hotspur: Why, so can I, and so can any man. But who will read when you do publish them?

So, in general, is the opinion such that while e-books are here to stay, they are never going to supplant print books? Is the fact that NY is scrambling to gain e-rights just another way for them to (finally) exploit the new frontier and that as more and more NY join in, less and less important will the small, indie E-publishers become?

Just curious, really. I'll admit bias toward a shift to E-publishing because I personally benefit from the E-publishing model. No advance, monthly paychecks from royalties at a significantly higher rate than print.

I'll add this caveat, from personal experience, that E-publishing is significantly more profitable in a few genres over others and I do not market my straight, spec-fic to the e-market. I save that for romantic/erotic fiction. But I've made more than 25K in the last five years. In truth, I made more than 20K in two years, and I took a two year hiatus. The first year, I put out one book at the fiscal end of that year and made 600 bucks.

I think e-publishing, through established and respected houses, will continue to see the largest growth in the publishing industry for a while to come. I can't say much about self-publishing, because I do not see the two being in any way interchangeable terms, and I have no experience with literal self-publishing. My opinion, fwiw, is that like any other publishing media there is good and bad in every facet, but in the end, if the product is of quality, I can appreciate the lure to authors in keeping all the proceeds of all sales. Even if they have to shell out for marketing and production, if the authors product sells well, the profits to be made are much larger than they'd likely see from NY.

omega12596 said:

So, in general, is the opinion such that while e-books are here to stay, they are never going to supplant print books?

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The opinion, at least mine, is so what if they do? Printing is not publishing.

I think e-publishing, through established and respected houses, will continue to see the largest growth in the publishing industry for a while to come. I can't say much about self-publishing, because I do not see the two being in any way interchangeable terms, and I have no experience with literal self-publishing. My opinion, fwiw, is that like any other publishing media there is good and bad in every facet, but in the end, if the product is of quality, I can appreciate the lure to authors in keeping all the proceeds of all sales. Even if they have to shell out for marketing and production, if the authors product sells well, the profits to be made are much larger than they'd likely see from NY.

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I think you're going to see the smaller e-publishers squeezed out, and you're going to see self-published ebooks vanish. Why? Because the big houses act as gatekeepers and the public wants the gates kept.

No one wants to be an unpaid slush-reader. Reading raw slush gives people an allergic reaction to anything that looks like slush.

Thus, a need for a This Is Not Slush marker. And that's what the big publishers bring to the table.

James D. Macdonald said:

The opinion, at least mine, is so what if they do? Printing is not publishing.


I think you're going to see the smaller e-publishers squeezed out, and you're going to see self-published ebooks vanish. Why? Because the big houses act as gatekeepers and the public wants the gates kept.

No one wants to be an unpaid slush-reader. Reading raw slush gives people an allergic reaction to anything that looks like slush.

Thus, a need for a This Is Not Slush marker. And that's what the big publishers bring to the table.

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In all business, if one can't keep up, one often falls to the side (small e-pubs giving way beneath larger ones). As to self-pubbed, I'm not convinced they'll completely disappear - though your point about quality is well taken - since self-pubbed in print hasn't disappeared yet either. And I adamantly agree that printing is not publishing. Perhaps I'm more of a mind that print does not mean published, owing to personal bias of course, but also to a more balanced model between authors and publishers (hopefully) going into the future.

Granted, big houses often act as gatekeepers and the public is more likely to buy from what they consider a well-run business than from an unknown individual. However, one thing e-publishing is able to do, much better and faster than big houses, is adapt to changes in readers interests and technology trends, which will likely be what aids in the media's continued growth.

As an aside to This is Not a Slush marker... Some of that is quite subjective. I've picked out an unacceptable amount of clerical and grammatical errors in twenty of the last twenty-five books I've purchased, in several different print formats, over the last three months. And all twenty-five had multiple typos/awkward sentences, though not all were littered with them. And despite its popularity, I couldn't get through Meyer's works at all. Print doesn't equal quality. And I wonder how many other readers may believe this as I do and find that spending a buck on a messy book is a lot easier to swallow than spending thirty-five bucks.

I don't think print publishing is ever going to take back the ground it's lost against e-publishing, but if print moves closer to the e model, I think that may be good news for everyone, readers and authors alike.