A question about plastics and polymers for scientists

CynHolt

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Will plastics and/or polymers ever degrade? or alter over time in a landfill? I'm working on a piece of science fiction and I need to know what would be dug up 5,000 or 10,000 years in the future? Please feel free to hypothesize if necessary.

Thanks
 

blacbird

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Synthesized hydrocarbon molecules, the stuff of plastics and polymers, do not get created by non-human natural processes. They exist outside the normal environmental system in which other stuff gets created, broken down, and chemically recycled. Therein lies the problem. Many plastics and similar artificially-made compounds just are not subject to what we consider "normal" biodegrading processes.

Now, given that, such materials have only existed for about a century, and we really don't know how they will behave, chemically, over a long period of time. Efforts are being made currently to produced such materials as will biodegrade in reasonable lengths of time. Some progress has been made.

But, for your question, you really need to be more specific. There exist many thousands of "plastics and polymers", with more being created every day in industrial chem labs. Meaning that there isn't a blanket answer to your question.

caw
 

usuallycountingbats

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It also depends on the landfill environment. If they're buried in an anaerobic environment and no anaerobic bacteria exist there, then all kinds of things which usually degrade do not. For example things like wood and even bodies can be preserved for huge amounts of time in peat bogs because of their anaerobic and acidic conditions. So if you want something to be preserved, just set up that kind of environment in your landfill.
 

CynHolt

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Oh, you both raise interesting questions for me. Let me see if I can set this up a little better for you.

Humans find and settle on a planet with Earth like conditions, size, distance from the sun, land to water ratio, atmosphere, etc. They are surprised to NOT find any sentient life. Many years of exploring, harvesting and building go by and they slowly see signs that some sort of higher life form must have been there. There are no buildings, no roadways, etc, but like humans they have left permanent marks on the planet. I've assumed holes in mountains where minerals were mined. I'm looking for changes to a planet that it's nature won't destroy over thousands of years. I'm assuming that the humans would eventually dig up plastics. Since, as you pointed out, they are not found in nature, they should be evidence of a lost race of people. I'm assuming that even with time and pressure the basic chemical structure would still be there.
 

ClareGreen

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There are plenty of things that aren't found in nature and might be found on a once-civilised planet. On this one, I'd have to nominate concrete/tarmac roads, concrete buildings, things made out of glass (which does occur naturally, but not often, regularly or in lots of colours), gold, cut diamonds etc. We use a lot of hard stone and inert metal, and manufacture more artificial-and-inert things than just plastics.
 

waylander

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I would imagine that PTFE will survive unchanged for as long as you want.
 

King Neptune

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Eventually, even the most durable synthetic polymer will degrade, but some of them may last for more than a hundred thousand years in a suitable environment, such as buried in an anaerobic place. There are some alloys that will last as long; some bronzes are pretty durable, and gold doesn't degrade at all for thousands of years.
 
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Buffysquirrel

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The book The World Without Us by Alan Weisman might help you out here. It goes into a lot of detail about degradation of the artificial.
 

usuallycountingbats

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How would you have had polymers created without buildings and roadways? Plastics require oil drilling and oil refinement, which come with a highly industrialised infrastructure. Given that we can see the remnants of structures built by non-industrial civilisations, it's stretching my credulity to think no evidence of a highly industrial society would be present except stuff they made.
 

Buffysquirrel

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Maybe they went over to organic polymers and dismantled the industrial buildings.
 

usuallycountingbats

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Maybe they did - it's just something to think about.

Also, that sort of feels a bit circular to me - either they had some way of synthesising organic polymers which were chemically altered to stop fast breakdown (which brings us back to a highly industrialised society) or they used natural organic polymers, and you're back to the 'how long would they last' question - thousands of years, maybe, but the conditions would have to be highly specific.

It's all possible, it just needs to follow logically!
 

Buffysquirrel

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Goats, damnit, goats! Goats solve all plot problems!

Sorry, Cath.

Plastics do degrade, often losing colour and becoming brittle. As I understood things from the Weisman book, the so-say biodegradable plastics are bits of plastic held together by an organic mesh. The mesh breaks down but the bits of plastic...not so much.
 
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CynHolt

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The book The World Without Us by Alan Weisman might help you out here. It goes into a lot of detail about degradation of the artificial.

Thanks! I love resources.

Well, I'm glad that you guys are having the same arguments as the ones in my head. I need the world to have no obvious signs of civilization, but there should be a few clues upon closer inspection and although I'm not a scientist, I want this to have facts based in current scientific knowledge and not just wishful thinking.

Thanks everyone!
 
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King Neptune

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How long ago had the planet's civilization disappeared? The time would dictate what had degraded and what might still be around. Consider how much material has been found from campsites of h. ergaster even more than a million years ago. Instead of plastics, there might be fossilized living room furniture made of wood and cloth. Are you trying to show that those earlier people were civilized? If so, then gold jewelry might work.
 

CynHolt

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How long ago had the planet's civilization disappeared? The time would dictate what had degraded and what might still be around. Consider how much material has been found from campsites of h. ergaster even more than a million years ago. Instead of plastics, there might be fossilized living room furniture made of wood and cloth. Are you trying to show that those earlier people were civilized? If so, then gold jewelry might work.

Jewelry! I hadn't considered jewelry - that's perfect!

thank you :)
 

King Neptune

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Sorry, that would give away too much of the story. :D

O.K., it almost makes me want to read it.

Were you aware that at least one item of human manufacture was found in a lump of coal (indicating an age of more than 250 million years)? There have been a few hoaxes of that sort, but one item, a gold chain, appears to be an actual artifact, so jewelry is a good choice.