The second part of the article wasn't as hard-hitting as the first, and didn't have an author's name on the by-line (it's listed as "Staff.")
It relies too much on what Prather has to say, without checking up on her words. I do wish they'd checked it out more completely.
It relies too much on what Prather has to say, without checking up on her words. I do wish they'd checked it out more completely.
There is a third article about PA at Publishers Weekly
It' s dated November 22 and is a summarization of the first two articles with a bit of new stuff added.
Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com
It' s dated November 22 and is a summarization of the first two articles with a bit of new stuff added.
Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com
Re: There is a third article about PA at Publishers Weekly
So the supposedly hard-hitting article we'd all hoped for basically gets turned into fluff. Incredible. These guys continue to keep winning, and it seems there's nothing for it but watch them do it. Wow.
So the supposedly hard-hitting article we'd all hoped for basically gets turned into fluff. Incredible. These guys continue to keep winning, and it seems there's nothing for it but watch them do it. Wow.
Elliott Spitzer solution
Perhaps all that is needed is for one New York writer to get his state's Attorney General's attention. Then something just might happen.
Again, I recommend that all PA writers contact their own state Attorney Generals and ask them to apply pressure on Maryland's AG to do the right thing.
Perhaps all that is needed is for one New York writer to get his state's Attorney General's attention. Then something just might happen.
Again, I recommend that all PA writers contact their own state Attorney Generals and ask them to apply pressure on Maryland's AG to do the right thing.
Re: There is a third article about PA at Publishers Weekly
I posted a response at PW to this article, for all the good it will do. Here 'tis:
I'm a staff member of Writer Beware (www.writerbeware.org), a publishing industry watchdog group that collects information and provides warnings about questionable publishers, literary agents, and others.
Writer Beware has been receiving complaints about PublishAmerica since the company (previously known as Erica House, a print vanity publisher that charged thousands of dollars to publish--it's no accident that PublishAmerica's business model is so reminiscent of vanity publishing) started its print-on-demand operation in 1999. These many complaints reflect the same issues identified by the unhappy writers quoted in this article; we're also aware of documented complaints that PublishAmerica's conduct breached its own publishing contract (despite PublishAmerica's denial that it had ever done so). We've heard from writers who've been harassed and intimidated for speaking out, and have ourselves been the subject of a PublishAmerica-sponsored smear campaign.
On its website (which is devoted less to selling the company's books to readers than to pitching the company's publishing service to writers), PublishAmerica makes numerous misleading statements designed to play on the inexperience of aspiring authors--for instance, claiming that despite its exclusive use of digital technology "PublishAmerica is NOT in any way a POD...In our world, POD is vanity publishing, and PublishAmerica is no vanity publisher, by any stretch of the imagination." Also misleading: in touting the company's "substantial retail presence", Miranda Prather fails to mention that PublishAmerica (like the POD vanities from which it tries so hard to distinguish itself) offers short discounts and doesn't allow returns. Far from being "what the market will bear", PublishAmerica's book prices are among the highest of any digitally-based publisher--sometimes two or three times more expensive than comparable books from commercial publishers, yet another disincentive for booksellers.
PublishAmerica's claims of selectiveness are also exaggerated. We know of several deliberately unpublishable manuscripts submitted to the company to test its editorial screening process that have received contract offers.
We don't have any quarrel with the business niche PublishAmerica has established for itself, as a vanity publisher that doesn't charge an upfront fee. Like Kate St. Amour, however, we'd like it to be honest about what it is and does, and to show toward its authors the basic respect and service that any responsible business offers its customers.
- Victoria Strauss
I posted a response at PW to this article, for all the good it will do. Here 'tis:
I'm a staff member of Writer Beware (www.writerbeware.org), a publishing industry watchdog group that collects information and provides warnings about questionable publishers, literary agents, and others.
Writer Beware has been receiving complaints about PublishAmerica since the company (previously known as Erica House, a print vanity publisher that charged thousands of dollars to publish--it's no accident that PublishAmerica's business model is so reminiscent of vanity publishing) started its print-on-demand operation in 1999. These many complaints reflect the same issues identified by the unhappy writers quoted in this article; we're also aware of documented complaints that PublishAmerica's conduct breached its own publishing contract (despite PublishAmerica's denial that it had ever done so). We've heard from writers who've been harassed and intimidated for speaking out, and have ourselves been the subject of a PublishAmerica-sponsored smear campaign.
On its website (which is devoted less to selling the company's books to readers than to pitching the company's publishing service to writers), PublishAmerica makes numerous misleading statements designed to play on the inexperience of aspiring authors--for instance, claiming that despite its exclusive use of digital technology "PublishAmerica is NOT in any way a POD...In our world, POD is vanity publishing, and PublishAmerica is no vanity publisher, by any stretch of the imagination." Also misleading: in touting the company's "substantial retail presence", Miranda Prather fails to mention that PublishAmerica (like the POD vanities from which it tries so hard to distinguish itself) offers short discounts and doesn't allow returns. Far from being "what the market will bear", PublishAmerica's book prices are among the highest of any digitally-based publisher--sometimes two or three times more expensive than comparable books from commercial publishers, yet another disincentive for booksellers.
PublishAmerica's claims of selectiveness are also exaggerated. We know of several deliberately unpublishable manuscripts submitted to the company to test its editorial screening process that have received contract offers.
We don't have any quarrel with the business niche PublishAmerica has established for itself, as a vanity publisher that doesn't charge an upfront fee. Like Kate St. Amour, however, we'd like it to be honest about what it is and does, and to show toward its authors the basic respect and service that any responsible business offers its customers.
- Victoria Strauss
Re: Victoria, I saw your post on the PW website...
Ditto to what Ed said, Victoria. Sadly, though , it appears PA is unstoppable. I really thought the PW article would turn the trick and raise a furor, but these guys appear to be Teflon. Decidedly discouraging...oh well.
John R.
Ditto to what Ed said, Victoria. Sadly, though , it appears PA is unstoppable. I really thought the PW article would turn the trick and raise a furor, but these guys appear to be Teflon. Decidedly discouraging...oh well.
John R.
Oh, the Publishers Weekly article had an effect allright
More later...... later next week.
I think I shall post a rebuttal to Mr. Mike Hill's post at
www.publishersweekly.com/...er_id=1307
Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com
More later...... later next week.
I think I shall post a rebuttal to Mr. Mike Hill's post at
www.publishersweekly.com/...er_id=1307
Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com
Re: Oh, the Publishers Weekly article had an effect allright
Over at Publishers Weekly Mike Hill says:
<BLOCKQUOTE>Publish America does everything they say they will do according to their contract. The authors who contacted you are nothing but a bunch of whiners who are upset that their book didn't make them rich. PA charged them nothing to publish their books and puts no pressure on them to buy books. PA has given many of these authors the rights to their book back--which they don't have to do--before their signed contracts ended. If these authors books are so great then why hasn't a major publisher picked them up? I'm sorry Mr. Zeitchik but you've been suckered by a bunch of losers. And because of your naivete you've soiled the reputation of a publisher that has published a lot of author's books that if not for them would never have seen the light of day. And again, they do it at no cost to the author. </BLOCKQUOTE>
Let's overlook the standard PublishAmerica "whiners who are upset that their book didn't make them rich" line, and concentrate on checkable facts. (Anyone who gets into writing as a get-rich-quick scheme is, well, not too observant.)
No one is saying even that these particular authors' books are great -- only that authors in general shouldn't be tricked into a vanity publishing scheme masquerading as a traditional publishing deal.
"Publish America does everything they say they will do according to their contract," Mike says, ignoring the fact that PA's contract is seriously non-standard and author-unfriendly, as documented by HapiSofi (and others) here and here. Let's also ignore the false and misleading advertising PA does to induce authors to submit their works and sign that contract in the first place.
"PA charged them nothing to publish their books and puts no pressure on them to buy books," Mike says, even though the authors all had to buy their own copyrights for $30 each, and, in the last year alone PA has sent no less than six emails to their authors, each one with a high-pressure sales pitch to buy their own books -- the most recent one just last Thursday (18 November).
Vantage and Dorrance also publish books that, "if not for them, would never have seen the light of day." Publishing unpublishable books isn't anything to boast about if you're a traditional publisher. It's business as usual if you're a vanity press. Mike, you've just convicted PublishAmerica out of your own mouth.
Here's the way PA's plan works: They've made production so cheap (no editing, for example) and set the cover prices so high (typically $19.95 for a slender trade-size paperback), that they can make a profit off the number of books (typically under a hundred) that authors will predictably buy themselves to sell to their families and friends.
PA books aren't shelved in physical bookstores for three main reasons:
1) No return policy
2) Short discount through distributors
3) Non-competitive cover prices.
Other reasons why they aren't shelved include:
1) No catalog
2) No salesforce
3) No advertising to the trade
4) No major reviews prior to publication
5) No Library of Congress CIP data.
Look at the total sales for the year to date on the twenty books that PA has advertised in the New York Times Book Review as their monthly best sellers:
Ingram reports that those twenty books had, on the day their ads were printed, 31 sales among them through normal trade channels (one book by itself counted for 19 of those sales). If those are PA's best-selling books, just imagine how badly their worst-selling books must be doing.
Question for you, Mike: How many of your own books have you bought? How many of your books have sold to people you don't know by name, or who you weren't looking in the eye at the moment the cash changed hands?
Folks, I rest my case.
Over at Publishers Weekly Mike Hill says:
<BLOCKQUOTE>Publish America does everything they say they will do according to their contract. The authors who contacted you are nothing but a bunch of whiners who are upset that their book didn't make them rich. PA charged them nothing to publish their books and puts no pressure on them to buy books. PA has given many of these authors the rights to their book back--which they don't have to do--before their signed contracts ended. If these authors books are so great then why hasn't a major publisher picked them up? I'm sorry Mr. Zeitchik but you've been suckered by a bunch of losers. And because of your naivete you've soiled the reputation of a publisher that has published a lot of author's books that if not for them would never have seen the light of day. And again, they do it at no cost to the author. </BLOCKQUOTE>
Let's overlook the standard PublishAmerica "whiners who are upset that their book didn't make them rich" line, and concentrate on checkable facts. (Anyone who gets into writing as a get-rich-quick scheme is, well, not too observant.)
No one is saying even that these particular authors' books are great -- only that authors in general shouldn't be tricked into a vanity publishing scheme masquerading as a traditional publishing deal.
"Publish America does everything they say they will do according to their contract," Mike says, ignoring the fact that PA's contract is seriously non-standard and author-unfriendly, as documented by HapiSofi (and others) here and here. Let's also ignore the false and misleading advertising PA does to induce authors to submit their works and sign that contract in the first place.
"PA charged them nothing to publish their books and puts no pressure on them to buy books," Mike says, even though the authors all had to buy their own copyrights for $30 each, and, in the last year alone PA has sent no less than six emails to their authors, each one with a high-pressure sales pitch to buy their own books -- the most recent one just last Thursday (18 November).
Vantage and Dorrance also publish books that, "if not for them, would never have seen the light of day." Publishing unpublishable books isn't anything to boast about if you're a traditional publisher. It's business as usual if you're a vanity press. Mike, you've just convicted PublishAmerica out of your own mouth.
Here's the way PA's plan works: They've made production so cheap (no editing, for example) and set the cover prices so high (typically $19.95 for a slender trade-size paperback), that they can make a profit off the number of books (typically under a hundred) that authors will predictably buy themselves to sell to their families and friends.
PA books aren't shelved in physical bookstores for three main reasons:
1) No return policy
2) Short discount through distributors
3) Non-competitive cover prices.
Other reasons why they aren't shelved include:
1) No catalog
2) No salesforce
3) No advertising to the trade
4) No major reviews prior to publication
5) No Library of Congress CIP data.
Look at the total sales for the year to date on the twenty books that PA has advertised in the New York Times Book Review as their monthly best sellers:
Ingram reports that those twenty books had, on the day their ads were printed, 31 sales among them through normal trade channels (one book by itself counted for 19 of those sales). If those are PA's best-selling books, just imagine how badly their worst-selling books must be doing.
Question for you, Mike: How many of your own books have you bought? How many of your books have sold to people you don't know by name, or who you weren't looking in the eye at the moment the cash changed hands?
Folks, I rest my case.
Re: Oh, the Publishers Weekly article had an effect alright
Oh -- and here's something else interesting ... if Amazon is to be believed, no one named "Mike" or "Michael" Hill is a PublishAmerica author.
If Google is to be believed, neither has anyone named "Mike" or "Michael" Hill posted on the PA message boards.
(There is a Mike Hill whose AFTER WHITENESS : UNMAKING AN AMERICAN MAJORITY came out from New York University Press in 2004, but I doubt he's the same guy.)
Can someone help me out here? Who's Mike Hill?
Oh -- and here's something else interesting ... if Amazon is to be believed, no one named "Mike" or "Michael" Hill is a PublishAmerica author.
If Google is to be believed, neither has anyone named "Mike" or "Michael" Hill posted on the PA message boards.
(There is a Mike Hill whose AFTER WHITENESS : UNMAKING AN AMERICAN MAJORITY came out from New York University Press in 2004, but I doubt he's the same guy.)
Can someone help me out here? Who's Mike Hill?
Re: Oh, the Publishers Weekly article had an effect alright
>>Can someone help me out here? Who's Mike Hill?<<
We may not have heard Mike's name before, but his spiel is mysteriously familiar.
- Victoria
>>Can someone help me out here? Who's Mike Hill?<<
We may not have heard Mike's name before, but his spiel is mysteriously familiar.
- Victoria
Re: The Publishers Weekly article had an effect all right
If anyone wants to use my comments above as a basis for a post to the PW board, they have my permission to do so.
If anyone wants to use my comments above as a basis for a post to the PW board, they have my permission to do so.
Re: Another PA Sock Puppet
Meanwhile, back at Publishers Weekly, we read :
<Blockquote>Submitted by: Carl Ross ([email protected])
11/23/2004 10:10:28 PM PT
Location: New York
Occupation: Publishing
I'm sure the "traditional publishers" (whatever that means) are glad these whiners have posted using their real names and emails so they will be sure to toss any manuscripts, queries or proposals they submit straight in the trash. Ignorance is too light a word to describe the garbage these whinesters are spewing. One person is upset that she spent nearly $600 to market her book yet to date has received about $100 in royalties. What kind of argument is this? What did she expect for a whopping $600? It takes hundreds of thousands to promote a book properly. If it's not stated in the contracts you whiners signed that Publish America is going to spend X amount of monies on promotion then don't expect it. Here's another clue: ALL PUBLISHERS EXPECTS ITS AUTHORS TO HELP PROMOTE. And for all you who say that PA hasn't paid proper royalties because you know your friends bought your books. Chew on this. Amazon sell books buy individual sellers on the same page that it advertises the books for purchase via them. How do you know your friends aren't buying these books, usually at a reduce price, and not the full priced books through Amazon? If they are then you won't get any royalties from these sells. Duh!!!!!!!!!!! Publish America has done nothing but give these whiners an opportunity that nobody else--until them--would give them. And for that, these so called authors whine and complain about things they know absolutely nothing about. Usually the amount of promotion is tied to the amount of an advance an author receives. Publish America gives a $1 token advance. How much promotion did they think PA was going to give them for a buck? The people who are posting here are the same whiners who post on the Mindsight Forum. A forum set up for the sole purpose of criticizing PA, despite what its owner says. </BLOCKQUOTE>
We see that "Carl" is hitting the "whiners" gong pretty hard. We also see that for someone who claims to be working in publishing in New York, "Carl" doesn't have a really good grasp of the English language. The audience for PW is publishing professionals, guy. They notice things like grammar and spelling.
"If it's not stated in the contracts you whiners signed that Publish America is going to spend X amount of monies on promotion then don't expect it."
"Carl" probably hasn't seen a real publishing contract in his life. The contract that I signed just yesterday (with a major New York publisher for a nice five-figure sum, thank you very much) didn't say a word about dollar amounts that the publisher would spend on publicity. I don't recall any publishing contract that did. That's because real publishers are assumed to want to sell their books to the public -- promotion is their lookout and goes without saying. When PublishAmerica claims to be a "traditional" publisher, they're implicitly claiming that they do the same sort of publicity and marketing that the real publishers do.
But wait! There's more!
Did you notice this particular typo? "If they are then you won't get any royalties from these sells." [Emphasis mine.]
Now where have I see that particular error recently?
Ah, yes! Here: "Those authors who are successfully marketing their ebook and acquiring sells will be referred to PublishAmerica for immediate consideration for publication." [Again, emphasis mine.] That's over at the TomeToaster homepage.
Who or what is TomeToaster? It's a startup ebook company, run by the fellow who wrote Publish It Promote It Get Rich!
Mr. Goldwell thinks that "This is a unique opportunity for authors which allows them to test market their book at little or no cost, prove their ability to promote and market their book and open the door to a publisher that can get their book on bookshelfs across the nation." [Emphasis his, this time.]
Not that "opening the door" to PublishAmerica was particularly difficult to start with.
But I laugh, I snort, I chuckle. Here, at long last, is the guy who thinks that publishing his book with PA will make him rich. We'll see how he feels about that a year from now.
Meanwhile, back at Publishers Weekly, we read :
<Blockquote>Submitted by: Carl Ross ([email protected])
11/23/2004 10:10:28 PM PT
Location: New York
Occupation: Publishing
I'm sure the "traditional publishers" (whatever that means) are glad these whiners have posted using their real names and emails so they will be sure to toss any manuscripts, queries or proposals they submit straight in the trash. Ignorance is too light a word to describe the garbage these whinesters are spewing. One person is upset that she spent nearly $600 to market her book yet to date has received about $100 in royalties. What kind of argument is this? What did she expect for a whopping $600? It takes hundreds of thousands to promote a book properly. If it's not stated in the contracts you whiners signed that Publish America is going to spend X amount of monies on promotion then don't expect it. Here's another clue: ALL PUBLISHERS EXPECTS ITS AUTHORS TO HELP PROMOTE. And for all you who say that PA hasn't paid proper royalties because you know your friends bought your books. Chew on this. Amazon sell books buy individual sellers on the same page that it advertises the books for purchase via them. How do you know your friends aren't buying these books, usually at a reduce price, and not the full priced books through Amazon? If they are then you won't get any royalties from these sells. Duh!!!!!!!!!!! Publish America has done nothing but give these whiners an opportunity that nobody else--until them--would give them. And for that, these so called authors whine and complain about things they know absolutely nothing about. Usually the amount of promotion is tied to the amount of an advance an author receives. Publish America gives a $1 token advance. How much promotion did they think PA was going to give them for a buck? The people who are posting here are the same whiners who post on the Mindsight Forum. A forum set up for the sole purpose of criticizing PA, despite what its owner says. </BLOCKQUOTE>
We see that "Carl" is hitting the "whiners" gong pretty hard. We also see that for someone who claims to be working in publishing in New York, "Carl" doesn't have a really good grasp of the English language. The audience for PW is publishing professionals, guy. They notice things like grammar and spelling.
"If it's not stated in the contracts you whiners signed that Publish America is going to spend X amount of monies on promotion then don't expect it."
"Carl" probably hasn't seen a real publishing contract in his life. The contract that I signed just yesterday (with a major New York publisher for a nice five-figure sum, thank you very much) didn't say a word about dollar amounts that the publisher would spend on publicity. I don't recall any publishing contract that did. That's because real publishers are assumed to want to sell their books to the public -- promotion is their lookout and goes without saying. When PublishAmerica claims to be a "traditional" publisher, they're implicitly claiming that they do the same sort of publicity and marketing that the real publishers do.
But wait! There's more!
Did you notice this particular typo? "If they are then you won't get any royalties from these sells." [Emphasis mine.]
Now where have I see that particular error recently?
Ah, yes! Here: "Those authors who are successfully marketing their ebook and acquiring sells will be referred to PublishAmerica for immediate consideration for publication." [Again, emphasis mine.] That's over at the TomeToaster homepage.
Who or what is TomeToaster? It's a startup ebook company, run by the fellow who wrote Publish It Promote It Get Rich!
Mr. Goldwell thinks that "This is a unique opportunity for authors which allows them to test market their book at little or no cost, prove their ability to promote and market their book and open the door to a publisher that can get their book on bookshelfs across the nation." [Emphasis his, this time.]
Not that "opening the door" to PublishAmerica was particularly difficult to start with.
But I laugh, I snort, I chuckle. Here, at long last, is the guy who thinks that publishing his book with PA will make him rich. We'll see how he feels about that a year from now.
Re: Another PA Sock Puppet
People masquerading as writers, attempting to tell others how it's done, who've sold themselves a load of manure, never cease to amaze me. A year from now, after he's received a couple of $10.00 royalty checks, he'll probably think he's hit the big time.
People masquerading as writers, attempting to tell others how it's done, who've sold themselves a load of manure, never cease to amaze me. A year from now, after he's received a couple of $10.00 royalty checks, he'll probably think he's hit the big time.
Re: Another PA Sock Puppet
Gee, given the use of capitals, exclamation points, and the word "spew", I sorta thought ol' Carl might be our good friend H.B.
- Victoria
Gee, given the use of capitals, exclamation points, and the word "spew", I sorta thought ol' Carl might be our good friend H.B.
- Victoria
Re: More comedy from the Publishers Weekly Boards
"Carl Ross," who claims to work in publishing in New York, continues:
<blockquote>Submitted by: Carl Ross ([email protected])
11/24/2004 12:27:01 PM PT
How many of most publishers books can be found in bookstores across America? Not many. The major publishers pretty much own the space in bookstores because they put money behind the books they put out which draws customers into their stores. To think any small publisher is going to get your book much presence in bookstores is being both naive and dumb. There is no definition for "traditional publisher" that applies to all publishers. People can pretty much run their businesses the way they like to as long as they adhere to the law and their contracts. Only authors that can't write are concern about editing. Good writers don't want their work edited. I really don't understand this complaint. Most royalties to authors are low. Only a small percentage of writers get rich or live good off the royalties from their books. If you're looking to make a lot of money than writing books is not the best way to achieve that goal. None of you complainers and whiners has suffered any real losses. And if you had done any research or had an agent you would have known that Publish America was not Random House. Be thankful you got a royalty check from Publish America cause most authors never see one and often times never even see a statement. The royalties never seem to be enough to recoup the initial small advance. </BLOCKQUOTE>
and
<BLOCKQUOTE>Submitted by: Carl Ross ([email protected])
11/24/2004 7:50:03 PM PT
Tim and others. A publisher do not have to aggresively market their books. All they are obligated to do is to make them available to the public unless a stated dollar amount of an author tour is detailed in the contract. It's all about the contract. Something most of you Mindsight Whiners (and that's where all these negative comments are coming from) know nothing about. If you guys where writers and not whiners you'll be writing more books instead of all this bitchin' but of course you're not. Writing books and placing them with other publishers; and when you PA contracts expired reacquiring the rights and querying that book to another publisher. You'll be surprise how fast time flies when you're busy doing something you like (writing); but you guys aren't writers. Most of you wrote one or two badly conceived and written messes and struggled to get a publisher until PA came along. It won't be any different for any of you if you found another publisher. None of your books will sell many copies. Hell, even your family and friends don't purchase and read the crappola you guys spew to paper. And most of you whiners and complainers think you're too good to do one iota of promo in your own behalf. You complain that PA don't respond fast, well a major editor at a publishing house would hang up in your face if you show yourself to be a bug. THERE IS NO DEFINITION FOR TRADITIONAL PUBLISHER. </BLOCKQUOTE>
Poor guy, unaware that he's talking to an audience of publishing professionals over there. Alas, if he were aware of his audience he'd undoubtedly be a better writer.
It strikes me that "Carl" is probably one of the happy authors somewhere between the happy day when the book is accepted and the happy day when the author's copies arrive. He hasn't yet reached the less-happy day when he enters his first bookstore to try get his book shelved, and the utterly miserable day when he gets his first royalty check. He's parroting the PA party line. What this gives us is an inside view of a PA author's impression of what exactly it is that PA is and does, and what a PA author thinks the rest of the publishing industry is. We've seen this before: <a href="http://www.prweb.com/releases/2004/8/prweb146480.htm" target="_new">All Authors Are Created Equal</a> by the indefatigable Terri Von Rieman, for example. It's good to see that they're still beating the same drum.
True enough, there is no legal definition of what a "traditional publisher" is -- that's what lets PublishAmerica describe itself as a "traditional publisher." Still, we all know what a traditional publisher is and does -- they're the guys who get books onto bookshelves in bookstores or onto wire-rack spinners down at the bus station. They're the ones who publish the books we read, who publish the authors we've heard of.
Line-by-line time.
How many of most publishers [sic] books can be found in bookstores across America? Not many.
Most publishers don't publish books. Most publish newsletters, magazines, catalogs, newspapers, and other material unsuited to bookstore distribution. Others publish textbooks, legal/medical/engineering reference books, or maps that aren't meant for bookstore distribution. Vanity publishers' books aren't found in bookstores. Among the remainder, the publishers who print trade books, the novels, the how-to books, the recipe books, the diet books ... those publishers' books are found in bookstores across America. They're out there hustling to get their books onto the shelves. They're trying to get the whole print run out there, because it isn't earning them any money sitting in a warehouse. The ones that the public buys are reprinted, the rest are replaced by others in the never-ending quest to sell authors' books to readers.
The major publishers pretty much own the space in bookstores because they put money behind the books they put out which draws customers into their stores.
The major publishers don't own the stores. But tell me, "Carl," are you claiming here that the major publishers do promote their books?
To think any small publisher is going to get your book much presence in bookstores is being both naive and dumb.
Naive and dumb? And this from "Carl"? Goodness!
Small publishers get small presence in bookstores (which is why they're small publishers). But still, they get their books onto shelves. Local and regional publishers get their books into local and regional bookstores. How do they do that? Through promotion and marketing. Is that spelled out in their contracts? No. There's no need to do it, since that's the business they're in -- selling books. They don't leave the distribution and marketing in the hands of amateurs.
There is no definition for "traditional publisher" that applies to all publishers.
This is true, and that's what's keeping Willem, Larry, and Miranda out of jail -- for now.
People can pretty much run their businesses the way they like to as long as they adhere to the law and their contracts.
Laws like the ones against false advertising? Like the ones against printing books to which you don't own the rights? Like the contractual requirement to pay royalties, however pitiable, that the contract specifies? Those laws and contracts?
Only authors that [sic] can't write are concern [sic] about editing.
!!!
Good writers don't want their work edited.
!!!!
I really don't understand this complaint.
You know, "Carl," I believe you.
Most royalties to authors are low.
I'm having a hard time understanding what you're saying here, "Carl." Are you talking about the royalty rate, or about the size of the royalty checks?
Royalty rates from traditional publishers are based on cover price. Unlike PA -- which not only has a low 8% rate, but bases it on net. The checks can range from small to quite large. And the traditional publishers have paid advances, usually in the multiple thousands of dollars, to the authors. Compare that to PublishAmerica.
Only a small percentage of writers get rich or live good [sic] off the royalties from their books.
True enough. Very few writers go into this business in order to get rich, either. For most it's a hobby that pays for itself, or a profitable second job. But tell me -- where's this obsession with "getting rich" coming from? The people who are complaining about PA aren't claiming that PA didn't make them rich -- they're claiming that PA mislead them into signing a contract based on the belief that PublishAmerica was a real publisher, a publisher with a bookstore presence, a publisher that played fair, a non-vanity press.
If you're looking to make a lot of money than [sic] writing books is not the best way to achieve that goal.
Again true, but again that isn't the complaint.
None of you complainers and whiners has [sic] suffered any real losses.
Is your argument here that it's only a small scam? Or are you claiming that PublishAmerica prints worthless books?
And if you had done any research or had an agent you would have known that Publish America was not Random House.
What, the authors would have found out that PublishAmerica is a vanity press beforehand, rather than after the fact? Legitimate agents don't send material to PA, true enough. But this is blaming the victim for falling for a professional con-artist's spiel. Con men go to jail every day, even though they too might argue that if the little old ladies had only done some research they would have found out that the stock being touted was worthless.
Be thankful you got a royalty check from Publish America cause [sic] most authors never see one and often times [sic] never even see a statement.
This is an astounding statement. Are we talking about "most authors" as in "counting all the people who've ever written a book, whether they ever submitted it, whether it was ever bought"? Or are we talking about "counting all the people whose books have been accepted by legitimate publishers," or are we talking about "folks whose books have been accepted by trade houses?"
If it's the first case, true, most will never see a royalty check because most will never sell. If it's the second case, also true, because a good part of the publishing world doesn't work on royalties at all -- those textbook writers, for example, usually don't get royalties. If we're talking about folks who write for the the trade, then nope, sorry, wrong. Even if the book never earns out, the advance is an advance against royalties.
The royalties never seem to be enough to recoup the initial small advance.
This is a nonsensical statement. I can't figure out what what "Carl" is going on about. Any help from the Peanut Gallery?
Moving right along....
Tim and others. A publisher do [sic] not have to aggresively [sic] market their books.
No, they don't have to unless they plan to stay in business. Have you ever noticed that while traditional publishers don't have to aggressively market their books, somehow they all do?
All they are obligated to do is to make them available to the public unless a stated dollar amount of an author tour is detailed in the contract.
Again, if they plan to stay in business, they will promote and market their books. If by "make them available to the public" you mean "move heaven and earth to get them onto physical bookstores," they do it -- without having it specified in the contract. If all they do is list the books with Ingram, Amazon, bn.com, and on their own website, then either a) they're a vanity press, or b) they're staring down the barrel of Chapter Eleven. Did I ever tell you about my four-state book tour? Somehow that happened, without my having to arrange it, and without it being specified in my contract. How did that happen, "Carl"?
You're paying too much attention to the contract, and not enough to the whole panoply of things assumed in the phrase "traditional publisher."
It's all about the contract.
You just go on thinkin', Butch. That's what you're good at.
Something most of you Mindsight Whiners (and that's where all these negative comments are coming from) know nothing about.
Be honest, "Carl," it's something you're pretty ignorant on too. Let me fill you in on something, though, my friend. People you'd never suspect, folks who have never posted anywhere outside of the PA boards, have told me horror stories.
If you guys where [sic] writers and not whiners you'll [sic] be writing more books instead of all this bitchin' but of course you're not.
And who's to say they aren't, "Carl"? When did complaining about wrongs done to you become a bad thing? Can I come to your house, steal your manuscript, and expect you to go write another book instead of complaining?
Writing books and placing them with other publishers; [sic] and when you [sic] PA contracts expired reacquiring the rights and querying [sic] that book to another publisher.
And let PA go on with its fraud, and let Willem suck in other, newer, writers? That would be immoral, "Carl." How about the writers whose careers have been derailed by publishing with PublishAmerica? How about the ones who, after their experience with PA, say "If this is what traditional publishing is like, I don't want any part of it"?
You'll be surprise [sic] how fast time flies when you're busy doing something you like (writing); but you guys aren't writers.
Seven years is forever in publishing, "Carl." And you know something else? These folks you're pleased to call "whiners" are acting exactly like writers.
Most of you wrote one or two badly conceived and written messes and struggled to get a publisher until PA came along. It won't be any different for any of you if you found another publisher. None of your books will sell many copies. Hell, even your family and friends don't purchase and read the crappola you guys spew to paper.
Are you claiming that PA publishes badly conceived and written messes? That PA publishes "crappola"?
And what of the PA authors who have well-written and delightful books? They aren't getting bookstore distribution or sales either.
And most of you whiners and complainers think you're too good to do one iota of promo in your own behalf.
Oh, baloney, "Carl." Have you read Molly Marx Brent's story of her adventures? Or Rebecca Easton's? Those folks went above and beyond. PublishAmerica's business plan is designed so that even if you do all the promotion that they suggest, and you do it perfectly, you'll still fail.
Let me assume that you're a PA author, "Carl." Come back in a year and tell all of us how well your promo efforts worked.
You complain that PA don't [sic] respond fast, well a major editor at a publishing house would hang up in your face if you show [sic] yourself to be a bug.
"In your ear" is what you probably mean, but ... "not respond fast" is an understatement. "Not respond at all" would be closer. And we've seen PA not respond at all to perfectly reasonable requests from perfectly polite authors.
I do wonder how many major editors you've met. Where exactly in publishing in New York did you say you work?
THERE IS NO DEFINITION FOR TRADITIONAL PUBLISHER.
And Willem, Miranda, and Larry should get down on their knees and thank God for that fact.
But like pornography, while we can't define it, we all know it when we see it. Tell me, "Carl," what do you think when you hear the phrase "traditional publisher?" Is what comes instantly to mind "vanity press"? That's what PublishAmerica would have us believe.
"Carl Ross," who claims to work in publishing in New York, continues:
<blockquote>Submitted by: Carl Ross ([email protected])
11/24/2004 12:27:01 PM PT
How many of most publishers books can be found in bookstores across America? Not many. The major publishers pretty much own the space in bookstores because they put money behind the books they put out which draws customers into their stores. To think any small publisher is going to get your book much presence in bookstores is being both naive and dumb. There is no definition for "traditional publisher" that applies to all publishers. People can pretty much run their businesses the way they like to as long as they adhere to the law and their contracts. Only authors that can't write are concern about editing. Good writers don't want their work edited. I really don't understand this complaint. Most royalties to authors are low. Only a small percentage of writers get rich or live good off the royalties from their books. If you're looking to make a lot of money than writing books is not the best way to achieve that goal. None of you complainers and whiners has suffered any real losses. And if you had done any research or had an agent you would have known that Publish America was not Random House. Be thankful you got a royalty check from Publish America cause most authors never see one and often times never even see a statement. The royalties never seem to be enough to recoup the initial small advance. </BLOCKQUOTE>
and
<BLOCKQUOTE>Submitted by: Carl Ross ([email protected])
11/24/2004 7:50:03 PM PT
Tim and others. A publisher do not have to aggresively market their books. All they are obligated to do is to make them available to the public unless a stated dollar amount of an author tour is detailed in the contract. It's all about the contract. Something most of you Mindsight Whiners (and that's where all these negative comments are coming from) know nothing about. If you guys where writers and not whiners you'll be writing more books instead of all this bitchin' but of course you're not. Writing books and placing them with other publishers; and when you PA contracts expired reacquiring the rights and querying that book to another publisher. You'll be surprise how fast time flies when you're busy doing something you like (writing); but you guys aren't writers. Most of you wrote one or two badly conceived and written messes and struggled to get a publisher until PA came along. It won't be any different for any of you if you found another publisher. None of your books will sell many copies. Hell, even your family and friends don't purchase and read the crappola you guys spew to paper. And most of you whiners and complainers think you're too good to do one iota of promo in your own behalf. You complain that PA don't respond fast, well a major editor at a publishing house would hang up in your face if you show yourself to be a bug. THERE IS NO DEFINITION FOR TRADITIONAL PUBLISHER. </BLOCKQUOTE>
Poor guy, unaware that he's talking to an audience of publishing professionals over there. Alas, if he were aware of his audience he'd undoubtedly be a better writer.
It strikes me that "Carl" is probably one of the happy authors somewhere between the happy day when the book is accepted and the happy day when the author's copies arrive. He hasn't yet reached the less-happy day when he enters his first bookstore to try get his book shelved, and the utterly miserable day when he gets his first royalty check. He's parroting the PA party line. What this gives us is an inside view of a PA author's impression of what exactly it is that PA is and does, and what a PA author thinks the rest of the publishing industry is. We've seen this before: <a href="http://www.prweb.com/releases/2004/8/prweb146480.htm" target="_new">All Authors Are Created Equal</a> by the indefatigable Terri Von Rieman, for example. It's good to see that they're still beating the same drum.
True enough, there is no legal definition of what a "traditional publisher" is -- that's what lets PublishAmerica describe itself as a "traditional publisher." Still, we all know what a traditional publisher is and does -- they're the guys who get books onto bookshelves in bookstores or onto wire-rack spinners down at the bus station. They're the ones who publish the books we read, who publish the authors we've heard of.
Line-by-line time.
How many of most publishers [sic] books can be found in bookstores across America? Not many.
Most publishers don't publish books. Most publish newsletters, magazines, catalogs, newspapers, and other material unsuited to bookstore distribution. Others publish textbooks, legal/medical/engineering reference books, or maps that aren't meant for bookstore distribution. Vanity publishers' books aren't found in bookstores. Among the remainder, the publishers who print trade books, the novels, the how-to books, the recipe books, the diet books ... those publishers' books are found in bookstores across America. They're out there hustling to get their books onto the shelves. They're trying to get the whole print run out there, because it isn't earning them any money sitting in a warehouse. The ones that the public buys are reprinted, the rest are replaced by others in the never-ending quest to sell authors' books to readers.
The major publishers pretty much own the space in bookstores because they put money behind the books they put out which draws customers into their stores.
The major publishers don't own the stores. But tell me, "Carl," are you claiming here that the major publishers do promote their books?
To think any small publisher is going to get your book much presence in bookstores is being both naive and dumb.
Naive and dumb? And this from "Carl"? Goodness!
Small publishers get small presence in bookstores (which is why they're small publishers). But still, they get their books onto shelves. Local and regional publishers get their books into local and regional bookstores. How do they do that? Through promotion and marketing. Is that spelled out in their contracts? No. There's no need to do it, since that's the business they're in -- selling books. They don't leave the distribution and marketing in the hands of amateurs.
There is no definition for "traditional publisher" that applies to all publishers.
This is true, and that's what's keeping Willem, Larry, and Miranda out of jail -- for now.
People can pretty much run their businesses the way they like to as long as they adhere to the law and their contracts.
Laws like the ones against false advertising? Like the ones against printing books to which you don't own the rights? Like the contractual requirement to pay royalties, however pitiable, that the contract specifies? Those laws and contracts?
Only authors that [sic] can't write are concern [sic] about editing.
!!!
Good writers don't want their work edited.
!!!!
I really don't understand this complaint.
You know, "Carl," I believe you.
Most royalties to authors are low.
I'm having a hard time understanding what you're saying here, "Carl." Are you talking about the royalty rate, or about the size of the royalty checks?
Royalty rates from traditional publishers are based on cover price. Unlike PA -- which not only has a low 8% rate, but bases it on net. The checks can range from small to quite large. And the traditional publishers have paid advances, usually in the multiple thousands of dollars, to the authors. Compare that to PublishAmerica.
Only a small percentage of writers get rich or live good [sic] off the royalties from their books.
True enough. Very few writers go into this business in order to get rich, either. For most it's a hobby that pays for itself, or a profitable second job. But tell me -- where's this obsession with "getting rich" coming from? The people who are complaining about PA aren't claiming that PA didn't make them rich -- they're claiming that PA mislead them into signing a contract based on the belief that PublishAmerica was a real publisher, a publisher with a bookstore presence, a publisher that played fair, a non-vanity press.
If you're looking to make a lot of money than [sic] writing books is not the best way to achieve that goal.
Again true, but again that isn't the complaint.
None of you complainers and whiners has [sic] suffered any real losses.
Is your argument here that it's only a small scam? Or are you claiming that PublishAmerica prints worthless books?
And if you had done any research or had an agent you would have known that Publish America was not Random House.
What, the authors would have found out that PublishAmerica is a vanity press beforehand, rather than after the fact? Legitimate agents don't send material to PA, true enough. But this is blaming the victim for falling for a professional con-artist's spiel. Con men go to jail every day, even though they too might argue that if the little old ladies had only done some research they would have found out that the stock being touted was worthless.
Be thankful you got a royalty check from Publish America cause [sic] most authors never see one and often times [sic] never even see a statement.
This is an astounding statement. Are we talking about "most authors" as in "counting all the people who've ever written a book, whether they ever submitted it, whether it was ever bought"? Or are we talking about "counting all the people whose books have been accepted by legitimate publishers," or are we talking about "folks whose books have been accepted by trade houses?"
If it's the first case, true, most will never see a royalty check because most will never sell. If it's the second case, also true, because a good part of the publishing world doesn't work on royalties at all -- those textbook writers, for example, usually don't get royalties. If we're talking about folks who write for the the trade, then nope, sorry, wrong. Even if the book never earns out, the advance is an advance against royalties.
The royalties never seem to be enough to recoup the initial small advance.
This is a nonsensical statement. I can't figure out what what "Carl" is going on about. Any help from the Peanut Gallery?
Moving right along....
Tim and others. A publisher do [sic] not have to aggresively [sic] market their books.
No, they don't have to unless they plan to stay in business. Have you ever noticed that while traditional publishers don't have to aggressively market their books, somehow they all do?
All they are obligated to do is to make them available to the public unless a stated dollar amount of an author tour is detailed in the contract.
Again, if they plan to stay in business, they will promote and market their books. If by "make them available to the public" you mean "move heaven and earth to get them onto physical bookstores," they do it -- without having it specified in the contract. If all they do is list the books with Ingram, Amazon, bn.com, and on their own website, then either a) they're a vanity press, or b) they're staring down the barrel of Chapter Eleven. Did I ever tell you about my four-state book tour? Somehow that happened, without my having to arrange it, and without it being specified in my contract. How did that happen, "Carl"?
You're paying too much attention to the contract, and not enough to the whole panoply of things assumed in the phrase "traditional publisher."
It's all about the contract.
You just go on thinkin', Butch. That's what you're good at.
Something most of you Mindsight Whiners (and that's where all these negative comments are coming from) know nothing about.
Be honest, "Carl," it's something you're pretty ignorant on too. Let me fill you in on something, though, my friend. People you'd never suspect, folks who have never posted anywhere outside of the PA boards, have told me horror stories.
If you guys where [sic] writers and not whiners you'll [sic] be writing more books instead of all this bitchin' but of course you're not.
And who's to say they aren't, "Carl"? When did complaining about wrongs done to you become a bad thing? Can I come to your house, steal your manuscript, and expect you to go write another book instead of complaining?
Writing books and placing them with other publishers; [sic] and when you [sic] PA contracts expired reacquiring the rights and querying [sic] that book to another publisher.
And let PA go on with its fraud, and let Willem suck in other, newer, writers? That would be immoral, "Carl." How about the writers whose careers have been derailed by publishing with PublishAmerica? How about the ones who, after their experience with PA, say "If this is what traditional publishing is like, I don't want any part of it"?
You'll be surprise [sic] how fast time flies when you're busy doing something you like (writing); but you guys aren't writers.
Seven years is forever in publishing, "Carl." And you know something else? These folks you're pleased to call "whiners" are acting exactly like writers.
Most of you wrote one or two badly conceived and written messes and struggled to get a publisher until PA came along. It won't be any different for any of you if you found another publisher. None of your books will sell many copies. Hell, even your family and friends don't purchase and read the crappola you guys spew to paper.
Are you claiming that PA publishes badly conceived and written messes? That PA publishes "crappola"?
And what of the PA authors who have well-written and delightful books? They aren't getting bookstore distribution or sales either.
And most of you whiners and complainers think you're too good to do one iota of promo in your own behalf.
Oh, baloney, "Carl." Have you read Molly Marx Brent's story of her adventures? Or Rebecca Easton's? Those folks went above and beyond. PublishAmerica's business plan is designed so that even if you do all the promotion that they suggest, and you do it perfectly, you'll still fail.
Let me assume that you're a PA author, "Carl." Come back in a year and tell all of us how well your promo efforts worked.
You complain that PA don't [sic] respond fast, well a major editor at a publishing house would hang up in your face if you show [sic] yourself to be a bug.
"In your ear" is what you probably mean, but ... "not respond fast" is an understatement. "Not respond at all" would be closer. And we've seen PA not respond at all to perfectly reasonable requests from perfectly polite authors.
I do wonder how many major editors you've met. Where exactly in publishing in New York did you say you work?
THERE IS NO DEFINITION FOR TRADITIONAL PUBLISHER.
And Willem, Miranda, and Larry should get down on their knees and thank God for that fact.
But like pornography, while we can't define it, we all know it when we see it. Tell me, "Carl," what do you think when you hear the phrase "traditional publisher?" Is what comes instantly to mind "vanity press"? That's what PublishAmerica would have us believe.
Re: More comedy from the Publishers Weekly Boards
I think I might be able to help on this one. I believe Carl is referring to the oft-propagated myth on the Publish America boards that advances need to be paid back if the royalties don't exceed it.
It's one of the Big Lies (along with the one that Big Publishers yank unproductive books off store shelves in a matter of weeks) that makes publishing with PA so "great."
Since truth is verboten on those boards, propaganda like that spewed by Carl thrives. But I'm encouraged that day-by-day, week-by-week, more and more disenchanted PA authors are finding their way to this and similar boards and helping to spread the word to their friends at PA.
I think I might be able to help on this one. I believe Carl is referring to the oft-propagated myth on the Publish America boards that advances need to be paid back if the royalties don't exceed it.
It's one of the Big Lies (along with the one that Big Publishers yank unproductive books off store shelves in a matter of weeks) that makes publishing with PA so "great."
Since truth is verboten on those boards, propaganda like that spewed by Carl thrives. But I'm encouraged that day-by-day, week-by-week, more and more disenchanted PA authors are finding their way to this and similar boards and helping to spread the word to their friends at PA.
I Think
Carl meant that most books don't sell enough copies to clear the tiny advance (since PA pays a big ol' dollar, I guess he means like 50 cents or something) and begin paying royalties. Thus, he is saying most authors never see any royalties because they never sell enough copies to begin paying royalties.
Of course, he's not exactly informed so who knows for sure?
Carl meant that most books don't sell enough copies to clear the tiny advance (since PA pays a big ol' dollar, I guess he means like 50 cents or something) and begin paying royalties. Thus, he is saying most authors never see any royalties because they never sell enough copies to begin paying royalties.
Of course, he's not exactly informed so who knows for sure?
Re: TomeToaster
*chuckles*
from the author's site -
"First release copies will not last long so make sure to let your bookstore know you want a copy so you don't have to wait for the second ordering."
considering this is POD publishing, he seems to be blissfully ignorant of the fact that there IS no "first release" or second or third, for that matter...
methinks either PA sold him a bill of goods or he's really, really not aware of how the system works.
*shrug*
so it goes....
*chuckles*
from the author's site -
"First release copies will not last long so make sure to let your bookstore know you want a copy so you don't have to wait for the second ordering."
considering this is POD publishing, he seems to be blissfully ignorant of the fact that there IS no "first release" or second or third, for that matter...
methinks either PA sold him a bill of goods or he's really, really not aware of how the system works.
*shrug*
so it goes....
Re: TomeToaster
By the way, does anyone know what software PA uses to produce manuscripts that are ready to be published by Lightning Source?
By the way, does anyone know what software PA uses to produce manuscripts that are ready to be published by Lightning Source?
PA software
The 'page proofs' and I use that term for lack of a better one, are returned as an adobe Pdf file.
Dee
The 'page proofs' and I use that term for lack of a better one, are returned as an adobe Pdf file.
Dee