The Firearms Thread (Questions and Discussions)

hester said:

I'm looking for a type of gun a young girl could use (age seventeen, average to slim build--not sure any of this matters, but looking for something she can carry/conceal easily--also one she can learn to use pretty fast). Is there any particular type that would be appropriate? Any help would be hugely appreciated (and will be rewarded with reppies ).

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The real questions you need to answer are related to the story.

How important is it that reader have all the details about the gun? Simply write "She wrapped her fingers around the gun in her pocket, the one her boyfriend gave her to defend herself, and walked into the bar." Does that work?

Or maybe "She snuck her mother's Glock 19 out of the house. The gun her dad had bought her mom but her mom had refused to touch. It was big, but not so big she couldn't get her hands in position, and her dad had showed her how to shoot it several years ago. The magazine was fully loaded and she racked a round into the chamber, then slipped the gun into her boot, pulling her jeans down to cover the butt."

Or "David had bought the tiny Ruger LCP for her, lying on the form at the gun store and saying he was the buyer. At 17, she couldn't legally own the gun, but she needed it for protection in the world she faced. The Flash Bang Ava holster she ordered from the internet felt smooth against her belly, with it's purple velvet against her skin, and the gun tucked easily into that sweet spot just below her appendix. David had bought three extra magazines, loaded them with the Hornady Zombie defense ammunition she saw on the shelf and she carried those in her left rear pocket, in a case meant for cigarettes. Nobody could tell she was packing heat and the secrecy of the deadly defender provided a tension that was almost sexual in nature as she pushed her cart down the aisles at WalMart."

Now, go find a range that rents guns, take a concealed carry class and bone up on your character so you can actually write her. And if you're ever in Florida let me know, I'll let you try that Ruger in the sexy holster for yourself.

Jeff

Though if a gun itself ever makes you feel sexy...seek help.

Of course, the outfit of a Bond villainess and a few kilos of gold would make it okay.

Willow: "Does that gun turn you on?"
Xander: "I'm seventeen years old. Linoleum turns me on."

Article I had published a few years back. Just uploaded, I'll need to format a bit. A summary of firearms from the beginning to the present, and things writers should look for.

http://www.michaelzwilliamson.com/politics-800 Years of Firearm Techie Talk in 4000 Words.html


The hilarious part is, after I mentioned making sure pictures are the right way around, the publisher flipped an image of a revolver and made it left handed. There are very few left-handed revolvers, and the one they showed wasn't one of them.

Wow, this thread has been dormant for a while.

What's a good way (if you don't have access to the firearm in question) to figure out whether or not a round can penetrate whatever object a character is using for cover? In this case it's fairly rare historical weapon, but the caliber and muzzle velocity is pretty close to a 0.50 AE Desert Eagle, so would that be a fair comparison for what it could blow through?

Probably. You'd have to consider bullet shape as well, along with target strength. But I'd buy it.

CWatts said:

Wow, this thread has been dormant for a while.

What's a good way (if you don't have access to the firearm in question) to figure out whether or not a round can penetrate whatever object a character is using for cover? In this case it's fairly rare historical weapon, but the caliber and muzzle velocity is pretty close to a 0.50 AE Desert Eagle, so would that be a fair comparison for what it could blow through?

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There's no magic formula for figuring that out. Bullets do funny things and the exact specifics make a difference.

What do you need to work in your story?

What is the exact firearm and projectile? Bullet weight, bullet design, and velocity are the key things.

What is the exact thing you want to use for cover?

Trebor1415 said:

There's no magic formula for figuring that out. Bullets do funny things and the exact specifics make a difference.

What do you need to work in your story?

What is the exact firearm and projectile? Bullet weight, bullet design, and velocity are the key things.

What is the exact thing you want to use for cover?

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Some of the cover is sandbags, so I'm finding some good examples through my google-fu, for instance: http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-7-the-sands-o-truth/

Weapon is a very early machine gun. (I may switch it to a Gatling as they had a few.) Need to keep people pinned down for awhile and realising This Won't End Well. Some heads that dare poke up may explode.

There's theory, and marketing claims, and Box of Truth. I'll go with the Box every time.

If your weapon is using black powder, your practical muzzle velocity is going to be somewhere between 1300 and 1500 feet per second. Modern cartridges use smaller, harder, precisely-shaped bullets traveling at least twice as fast. The usual energy calculations make the faster bullets disproportionately more powerful... but a 400 to 500 grain soft lead slug loafing along at 1400 feet per second is impressive.

Box of Truth has some examples of a .45 caliber Sharps against concrete and "bulletproof" glass. Also look for "Sandy Hook trials" for the Army's test of the .45-70-500 back in the 1880s.

CWatts said:

Weapon is a very early machine gun. (I may switch it to a Gatling as they had a few.) Need to keep people pinned down for awhile and realising This Won't End Well. Some heads that dare poke up may explode.

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This is believable with any firearm from the Civil War to present. Given a high enough firing rate, either though automatic/autoloading firearms or larger number of single-shot firearms, an enemy would hide behind cover as much as practical unless there was an overwhelming reason to charge into fire. You don't need withering fire to mow down enemy attackers just to pin down a group of enemy soldiers. Heck, a decent sniper an do that alone.

End result, write it as you need it, don't worry about penetration unless you need someone shot dead behind a wall or cover.

Jeff

Damn do I wish I'd known about this thread sooner. Had the following posted over in "western" for over a month. Hopefully y'all can be of some help:

Anybody out there ever shot a Tranter or Beaumont-Adams, or Tranter-Adams? I have a scene where the MC borrows a Tranter minutes before getting into a gunfight. He's completely unfamiliar with the action. Never having shot one of these guns before, I can relate. Which is unfortunate, since this puts me firmly into the territory of writing what I DON'T know.

I'd like to get the trivia right. I've read up on the Tranter, but reading and shooting are very different things. Hoping someone out there's shot one or something similar, and can share the details of their experience, especially the intricacies of handling the double trigger.

Jack Judah said:

Anybody out there ever shot a Tranter or Beaumont-Adams, or Tranter-Adams? I have a scene where the MC borrows a Tranter minutes before getting into a gunfight. He's completely unfamiliar with the action.

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There's nothing terribly exotic about the dual trigger (there were single trigger versions as well) Tranter firearms, which are similar to many cap and ball revolvers of the era. Assuming it is correctly loaded, one trigger cocks it and the other trigger fires it. You can pull both triggers at the same time, which many users did, although it isn't always successful. Generally, pulling the lower trigger was done when preparing to shoot, the upper, which fires the gun, when you're on target and ready to fire.

Which way do you need your story to work? If you need him to struggle, it's an easy gun to struggle with. Have him pull the top trigger, it doesn't fire, he pulls the bottom one, still doesn't fire so he panics and pulls them both (or the top one again) and it fires. If you need a better/quicker shot, there are better firearm options out there.

And why did you select a Tranter to begin with? It's an odd choice to come up with when you don't have a background in firearms. (Personal curiosity for that question).

Jeff

WeaselFire said:

There's nothing terribly exotic about the dual trigger (there were single trigger versions as well) Tranter firearms, which are similar to many cap and ball revolvers of the era. Assuming it is correctly loaded, one trigger cocks it and the other trigger fires it. You can pull both triggers at the same time, which many users did, although it isn't always successful. Generally, pulling the lower trigger was done when preparing to shoot, the upper, which fires the gun, when you're on target and ready to fire.

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Maybe I got it right after all. In the current draft, the character who loans my MC the Tranter describes the action thus:

“Little trigger cocks it. Hopin’ you know what the big trigger’s for. Tug ‘em at the same time, and you’ll be throwin’ lead faster’n Casey can catch it.”

When the MC prepares to fire it for the first time, I wrote:

He raised the Tranter, centered its front sight on the back of the killer’s head. Took a long, deep breath. Held it. Squeezed the small trigger, felt the cylinder turn and heard the click as the hammer cocked. He let the breath out slow as his finger brushed the main trigger. . .

The first time he fires, he hits what he's aiming at. Second time, now under fire himself, he jerks both at the same time and ends up pulling the shot. Does that sound about right? Or did I totally hump the bunk?

Also, have you shot one? If so, I'm curious about the trigger pull. Due to the dual triggers, I've been assuming that the main trigger would effectively be as light as a SA. But assuming is something I'm not all that comfortable with.

Why did you select a Tranter to begin with? It's an odd choice to come up with when you don't have a background in firearms.

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My background in firearms is. . .eclectic, and more of the practical than obscure variety. So when it comes to a lot of this antique stuff, I know just enough to get myself in trouble.

As for why the Tranter. . .WIP is a true story, and the facts called for a DA gun, but my sources never actually named the type. One of the men killed by the anonymous gun was named Moriarty, which gave me the not-so-bright idea to give ol' Sir Arthur a nod -- a Tranter or Adams (of later vintage) allegedly is featured in several Sherlock Holmes stories. Initially, I was going to use a Beaumont-Adams, but a few weeks later, I realized the gunfighter in Hannie Caulder favored one, so that left me with the Tranter.

Jack Judah said:

The first time he fires, he hits what he's aiming at. Second time, now under fire himself, he jerks both at the same time and ends up pulling the shot. Does that sound about right? Or did I totally hump the bunk?

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Quite believable, in even modern gunfights.

Jack Judah said:

Also, have you shot one? If so, I'm curious about the trigger pull. Due to the dual triggers, I've been assuming that the main trigger would effectively be as light as a SA. But assuming is something I'm not all that comfortable with.

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Best I've done is see them on display. The versions I'm familiar with are old cap and ball guns that are not likely safe to shoot today. My uncle had a single trigger one and the trigger pull was similar to any of the revolvers of the era, long and a little gritty. Can't imagine any different for the double trigger ones. Of course, a 100 year old gun will feel different in today's environment, back then it probably just felt normal.

Jack Judah said:

As for why the Tranter. . .WIP is a true story, and the facts called for a DA gun, but my sources never actually named the type. One of the men killed by the anonymous gun was named Moriarty, which gave me the not-so-bright idea to give ol' Sir Arthur a nod -- a Tranter or Adams (of later vintage) allegedly is featured in several Sherlock Holmes stories. Initially, I was going to use a Beaumont-Adams, but a few weeks later, I realized the gunfighter in Hannie Caulder favored one, so that left me with the Tranter.

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The Tranter, as well as the Beaumont-Adams (basically same gun) were relatively common in the Wild West era after the Civil War. It was popular in Europe but was also one of the guns used by the Confederacy in reasonable numbers, then taken West by the ex-Confederate soldiers who moved (were pushed?) West when carpet-baggers took the South. The real killer for the double trigger models was the switch from black powder cap and ball to metallic cartridge, which made it obsolete. But there were people well into the 20th century that preferred a cap and ball as more reliable than the new-fangled cartridges.

Sounds like your story works fine and, given the era, the Tranter would fit.

Jeff

WeaselFire said:

The Tranter, as well as the Beaumont-Adams (basically same gun) were relatively common in the Wild West era after the Civil War. It was popular in Europe but was also one of the guns used by the Confederacy in reasonable numbers, then taken West by the ex-Confederate soldiers who moved (were pushed?) West when carpet-baggers took the South.

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I actually wrote that bit into the story as well. The character who loans the gun to my MC is a whorehouse madame. She claims to have gotten it from a "reb officer with lots of braid on his shoulders". When I started researching the gun, I was amazed at how many notable folks favored either the Adams or the Tranter, and the various hybrids thereof. If men as disparate as JEB Stuart and Allen Pinkerton thought it was worth betting the farm on, it must've had something going for it.

Best I've done is see them on display. The versions I'm familiar with are old cap and ball guns that are not likely safe to shoot today. My uncle had a single trigger one and the trigger pull was similar to any of the revolvers of the era, long and a little gritty. Can't imagine any different for the double trigger ones. Of course, a 100 year old gun will feel different in today's environment, back then it probably just felt normal.

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Understandable you wouldn't want to shoot the real thing. I'm jealous you even got to dry fire one. Was it a family heirloom, or was your uncle a collector?

Thanks for the help!

I'm not sure if it makes sense to post here or start a new thread, but my question is definitely about firearms, so... here goes...

My MC is ex-military (US Marines, 4 tours of Afghanistan) and then an LAPD officer (now homicide detective).

He's out of LA and has just been in a gun battle with some militia types.

I want him to have the knowledge that a competent Marine/cop would have, but not be Mr. Wizard. And I want my militia to be very well-armed, definitely into the realm of illegal weapons, but not to the "backpack" nuke level.

So, while looking at three dead militia men, still in a fairly combative situation, what would he be able to observe about their weaponry without deep investigation?

I've already figured they'll have an M32 grenade launcher, and it's distinctive enough that I assume he'd be able to identify it at a glance.

But for the other weapons? My cops have M4s in their cruisers, so they'd know that weapon well, even without the military background. Would my guy be able to tell at a glance that the militia were carrying M4A1s rather than the simple M4? Or if they were carrying other rifles, maybe the type that can be configured for semi-automatic or automatic firing, would he be able to tell at a glance that these were automatic, and therefore illegal?

Are there other distinctive weapons that would be useful for militia to carry, assuming they'd just gotten a shipment from their illegal weapons supplier?

Thanks for any help!

ETA: Setting is Montana, if that makes any difference.

Assuming that they demand that everything be made in USA, then there isn't much difference in appearance that would be readily noticeable at a few hundred yards. Pretty much all assault rifles are generally similar in appearance. If they are willing to use foreign equipment, then there are some that are distinctive H&K, FN, and AK particularly. Look at the list

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assault_rifles

Captcha said:

I want him to have the knowledge that a competent Marine/cop would have, but not be Mr. Wizard.

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He'd know the tools of his trade - current Marine arms and whatever his PD issues. He might have been familiarized with military arms of NATO allies and the (mostly ex-Soviet) arms the enemy would have used. He wouldn't necessarily have any knowledge or interest in sporting arms or antiques.

Would my guy be able to tell at a glance that the militia were carrying M4A1s rather than the simple M4? Or if they were carrying other rifles, maybe the type that can be configured for semi-automatic or automatic firing, would he be able to tell at a glance that these were automatic, and therefore illegal?

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Not likely. The differences are often quite small, and sometimes not visible from outside. And many semiauto conversions deliberately copy the external features of the "not crippled" fully-automatic originals.

Are there other distinctive weapons that would be useful for militia to carry, assuming they'd just gotten a shipment from their illegal weapons supplier?

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The only things they would have to get illegally would be machine guns. Everything else is available at Wal-Mart or your friendly sporting goods store, at least for most places.

A decently-equipped militia might standardize on the same 5.56 and 7.62 cartridges NATO uses. "Distinctive" yet easily available, he might see an FAL, G3 or CETME, or a Galil. If the militia guys are providing their own guns, they could be carrying almost anything at all, from the latest Tavor to something from the 1800s. If some organization was buying, they'd probably standardize on ARs. Not necessarily all identical, the AR is considered a "platform", and umpty-dozen companies build mostly-interchangeable variants.

Dave Williams said:

He'd know the tools of his trade - current Marine arms and whatever his PD issues. He might have been familiarized with military arms of NATO allies and the (mostly ex-Soviet) arms the enemy would have used. He wouldn't necessarily have any knowledge or interest in sporting arms or antiques.





Not likely. The differences are often quite small, and sometimes not visible from outside. And many semiauto conversions deliberately copy the external features of the "not crippled" fully-automatic originals.




The only things they would have to get illegally would be machine guns. Everything else is available at Wal-Mart or your friendly sporting goods store, at least for most places.

A decently-equipped militia might standardize on the same 5.56 and 7.62 cartridges NATO uses. "Distinctive" yet easily available, he might see an FAL, G3 or CETME, or a Galil. If the militia guys are providing their own guns, they could be carrying almost anything at all, from the latest Tavor to something from the 1800s. If some organization was buying, they'd probably standardize on ARs. Not necessarily all identical, the AR is considered a "platform", and umpty-dozen companies build mostly-interchangeable variants.

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Gun rookie, here - is "machine gun" the same as "fully automatic"?

Captcha said:

Gun rookie, here - is "machine gun" the same as "fully automatic"?

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Not necessarily.

By definition, "machine guns" are belt-fed, and fire automatically - that is they go bang as long as there's ammo and the trigger is held back.

A number of rifles are capable of "full-auto" fire, like the M-16, the M-14, the M-3 carbine (Korean vintage weapon), but they fire from magazines. The M249 SAW can fire from magazines, but it's considered a light machine gun.

All of the above is meaningless if you're talking about legal definitions, as if you were dealing with the ATF and so forth.

cmhbob said:

Not necessarily.

By definition, "machine guns" are belt-fed, and fire automatically - that is they go bang as long as there's ammo and the trigger is held back.

A number of rifles are capable of "full-auto" fire, like the M-16, the M-14, the M-3 carbine (Korean vintage weapon), but they fire from magazines. The M249 SAW can fire from magazines, but it's considered a light machine gun.

All of the above is meaningless if you're talking about legal definitions, as if you were dealing with the ATF and so forth.

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So when Dave Williams said all the guns are legal except machine guns...?

It's my understanding that fully automatic weapons are illegal in the US, even if they aren't belt-fed like what I'd consider a machine gun. Have I got it wrong?

In 1934, the US passed a law that severely limited the ownership of certain firearms, including all full-auto guns. It required a special $200 tax over and above any normal taxes, and lots of background investigation and such.

In 1986, the US passed a law banning the manufacture of any new machineguns - by the legal definition of machinegun.

So they're not illegal in the US (although some jurisdictions ban them), but they are very difficult to come by, and very expensive. An M-60 machinegun would go for well over $20,000, plus the 6-9 months for the background checks.

But a modern military rifle with automatic fire capability would be legal?

Captcha said:

Gun rookie, here - is "machine gun" the same as "fully automatic"?

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Civilians often call anything fully-automatic a machine gun, but that's not really correct.

A machine gun is a heavy weapon, usually belt-fed and usually incapable of selective fire. They are used in military operations for supressive fire or when you need to throw a lot of lead down range. Other fully-automatic weapons include, assault rifles, submachine guns, machine pistols, automatic shotguns, automatic grenade launchers etc. Some machine guns are small-ish and can be carried like an assault rifle, but many are designed only to be mounted, like the .50 calibre Browning, the GE Minigun, and heavier, faster versions like the Aegis system on ships.

Also, if your character is ex-military, you should familiarize yourself with some terminology, things like "guns", "clips", and "bullets", are probably not what you think they are, and your ex-soldier would know how to use the terms correctly.

Captcha said:

But a modern military rifle with automatic fire capability would be legal?

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It's legal to sell them in many states without proof of ID, residence, or even a license. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_show_loophole

Laws vary widely state-by-state, but some places you can buy silencers and weapons (including machine guns) up to .50 Caliber (which is huge).

For comparison, the .308 Winchester is the larger of the two common military rifle rounds and the 5.56 NATO is what an M16 fires.