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[Publisher] Black Rose Writing (Reagan Rothe)

Gillhoughly

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why shouldn't I be willing to take a chance on a new publisher?
Because a new publisher may have good intentions, but be wholly unable to give your book the distribution it needs to get into the stores to make money. Without distribution no one buys your work; no one hears about it.

That the man behind Black Rose was foolish enough to ever go to Publish America and even recommend them is a huge red flag to anyone who has bothered to Google Publish America + scam and checked the pages of bad press. All it showed to the world was a complete cluelessness about how professional publishing works.

The last I checked he had absolutely NO experience, and that's not what you want in a publisher.

Okay, I just checked again. He's still got no experience.

Good intentions are a wonderful thing, but I've found it's better to go with solid professional experience to get visible results in my bank account.

His resume looks impressive, but he has never worked for a publishing house. Even a few months at a small regional publishing operation is better than nothing at all, and he doesn't have even that much.

That said, rechecking the previous posts should confirm that we asked legitimate questions, some of which were not addressed by him.

We are not failed writers having a bitch session; my 23rd novel will be released from Penguin later this year and my agent's gotten me another editing contract with a major house. I've edited and will again edit NYT bestselling writers (which is pretty damn cool!).

Victoria Strauss is a very successful multi-published author, as are many others on AW. She is also a major name in the fine art of scam busting. If she says be careful, then pay attention.

We don't bash just for the sake of bashing. If things sound harsh, there's a good reason for it.

This publisher with his amateurish site is asking you to trust him with your writing career, and we have concluded that it would be a poorly judged move.

There are more than enough established publishing houses to try first. Always start at the top and work your way down.

It's a rookie mistake to start at the bottom. Small presses are more selective about what they publish since they have a much more narrow profit margin.

But I can't count Black Rose as being a small press. Compare their site to these other Texas publishers.

http://www.darkstarbooks.net/dsb03.html
They have distribution.

http://www.benbellabooks.com/
You will find their titles in the bookstores!

No contest.

And stay away from Publish America. They're so bad that they have their very own sub-forum here!

You are most welcome to hang out on AW and learn from the best.

I wish it had been around when I first started out. I'd have avoided wasting my time on a scam agent and probably have twice as many books in print!
 
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Pilot

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Gillhoughly, I appreciate your candid comments. The stuff I write is fictional adventure, and a problem I've seen here, as well as other places, is that the endorsed publishers aren't interested in the sort of thing I write. I just looked at your two sites, for example, and they are not interested in new writers in the case of Darkstar, or fiction in the case of Benbella. Back to square one. It would tickle me plumb if Bennet Cerf was still around and would talk to me, but that ain't the way it is. The rejections, per se, don't really bother me: It's the headache and blood from beating my head against a stone wall for over a year now that gets under my hide. I did as you suggest by starting with the major houses, and worked my way down to ... basically nothing, now. Perhaps I'm being delusional about my work, but I don't think it's all that bad. Certainly I've read published works that, at least to my eye, seem far inferior if not pure junk. I understand business, having operated my own for several years after leaving the military. You've got to have a good product or service to offer or there's no income. One publisher here in Texas I sent my first book to said it was great, but he didn't think he had a market. Was this just a sop for me? Perhaps, I just flat don't know. Seems to me there ought to be a house out there that would take a minute with someone trying to get into the industry. But what do I know? Obviously, not much.
 

Birol

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That's a good question right now.
The thing is, there are more writers trying to get into the industry than there agents and publishers able to handle them. As a result, writers with a dream but who are otherwise ignorant of how the industry works, are ripe pickings for scam artists, unscrupulous individuals, and people who are just as clueless as the writers they would like to represent.
 

veinglory

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If you can't get your dream publisher to bite I would think there are a good many others to try rather than skipping straight to a new micro-press. But I must say neither of the publishers you mention ring a bell with me. Why not try a large commercial fiction publisher?
 
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Gillhoughly

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Pilot, there is a market for adventure fiction, but it has to be well-written to get an editor's attention.

The sites were just to show what the difference is between an amateur and the pros. You don't want to waste your time with amateurs!

Benbella does publish fiction, quite a lot of it, with writers like David Gerrold, John Brunner, and the late Adam Hall, who wrote the best spy adventures EVER. (Sorry, Ian Fleming and Len Deighton, Hall was better.)

I sold my first book because the opening 50 pages were enough to distract a tired, eyesore slush pile editor from her subway ride home so she missed her stop.

I'm trying not to judge how your prose style might be based on your post, but there were some errors, and one long paragraph makes it hard to read. Perhaps you're just in "relax mode" here on a board.

If not, then a book like Strunk and White's Elements of Style will be of help. Every writer and editor I know has a well-used copy, myself included.

The submission process is a pain in the arse, but every writer goes through it. You get frustrated, you get tired, but you don't give up. When a book comes back, you rewrite.

Mine lasted for two years. Every time the book was rejected I did a rewrite. Chapter one got the business about 25 times, and the whole book got a full rewrite at least three times.

That was on a manual typewriter with carbon paper and White Out.

Two years. And I was on the fast track.

It ended in a multi-book contract. After all that work the book was worth something. I'd also finished two more novels in the process and sold some short pieces to a magazine.

It's not enough to finish a book, you have to hand it off to beta readers to get feedback. Some brave souls looked at my book and helped me tweak it into shape so my words were worth buying, and I'm grateful to them still.

I didn't want to know if it was good; I needed to know what was wrong with it so I could fix its problems. It had plenty: a deadly slow opening, one too many characters, and not enough "omph." (A hard to define quality, but you know when it's missing.) At least I'd not committed a "data dump." (Yes, I'm talking to YOU, Tom Clancy.)

One publisher here in Texas I sent my first book to said it was great, but he didn't think he had a market.
I sent my book to an agent in Texas who told me "You're a good writer, but unpublishable."

As that made no sense to me I got PO'd and did yet another full rewrite. I wanted to make that jerk eat his words. Two more submissions (with rewriting) and I clicked with that slush editor.

Seems to me there ought to be a house out there that would take a minute with someone trying to get into the industry.
There isn't. They're busy acquiring books, editing, working with the writers they have, trying to sell new books to the suits upstairs, getting ideas through to the marketing and art departments, dealing with writers who hate their covers, and nagging literary divas who are past their deadlines. In between they read new manuscripts passed to them by agents and the slush pile readers--usually at home, when they've clocked out for the day.

The days are gone when an editor has time to nurture new talent. They're wearing too many hats; they have to in order to keep their jobs.

Ditto for agents. They WANT to find new talent, but it's hard going. (I've had a look through slush piles and I'm amazed that most agents don't gouge their own eyes out to end the misery.)

What you do have on your side is Absolute Write. The writers here are willing to help.

Many of them are pros, either giving back or paying it forward. We don't get paid for this; we do want to help others up the ladder.

Check out the Share Your Work forum and when you feel comfortable, post a chapter of your work for feedback. It's polite to offer constructive crit while you're there.

Good luck!
 

JulieB

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Pilot, are you in Texas? If so, you might want to attend one of several literary SF conventions in the state. You'll have a chance to talk to other writers, maybe an editor or two, perhaps take part in a workshop.

If you're not in Texas, you should be able to find a literary SF convention in your region. It's a great way to connect with other genre writers in your part of the country.
 

Gillhoughly

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Hell, yes--what JulieB said! Why didn't I think of that? D'oh.

There's a S.F. convention in Dallas this February heavily geared toward the literary end of things.

Writers, editors, and publishers will be there. Doesn't matter if you're not in to S.F. --writing is writing! There's going to be mystery writers, romance writers, hard S.F. you name it. WELL WORTH GOING!
 

Pilot

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Yep, I'm down here in the armpit of the world, otherwise known as Houston. My February and March are committed, but I'll certainly take the advice of a couple of pros regarding the conventions. My first book was an historically accurate SF, by the way. That one I KNOW needs to be in rewrite. And yes, Gillhoughly, I'm definitely in the relaxed mode on here. Believe it or don't, I've got one of them thar smarty-aleck edumacations, but relaxed I'm still just a dumb ol' South Texas country boy. When taking care of business, I switch back to USAF colonel mode. Changing the subject, I'm curious: It takes me about two months to write one of my novels, including research. Is that about normal? I refer to the initial write, not all the editing that follows.
 

Stacia Kane

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Changing the subject, I'm curious: It takes me about two months to write one of my novels, including research. Is that about normal? I refer to the initial write, not all the editing that follows.

There really is no "normal". :) It depends on word count and how much time you spend and how much research you do and...oh, any number of things.

The book that got me my agent and sold to Del Rey took me just under eight weeks to write. So I'm certainly not going to say two months is too short a period of time, at all. It's the editing that matters, not how long it took to write it.

I know it's frustrating and I know how tempting it can be to see a newbie press and say "Who knows? Maybe they're going somewhere!" But as has been pointed out, if you've decided you give up on the big houses...there are a TON of small presses, legitimate ones, who will pay you and get your books in stores.

Wildside Press is one. My first mmp was released by their Juno imprint; now Juno is an imprint of Pocket but before that I was with Wildside and was treated well with Wildside. My book was in stores nationwide. It got great reviews and sold very well.

That's just one that comes immediately to mind. There are plenty of others.

Keep trying. Don't give up your dreams, or hand them over to someone who means well but won't actually do anything for you.

Say you've saved up ten grand. Would you give that ten grand to a qualified investment banker with experience and connections? Or would you give it to your neighbor who thinks stocks are neat and he'd like to give it a go?
 

Pilot

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A closing note regarding the Black Rose Writing publisher: 5 days ago I queried the folks and got a 2 sentence rejection today. Either my writing is so atrocious that even an outfit following Publish America's style of business can't use it, or the guy is trying to clean up his act.
 

Marian Perera

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Either my writing is so atrocious that even an outfit following Publish America's style of business can't use it, or the guy is trying to clean up his act.

There's a third option: he doesn't have the resources to take on another book at the moment, and the quality of the submission is of no relevance.

Even PA has been known to reject books, and they're definitely not trying to clean up their act.
 

Bryan

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I am new to the world of writing and seeking a good, well-rounded publisher. I am also new to absolute write but I have seen a vast degree of knowledge and intellect from everyone here. I had almost sent a submission to Black Rose Writings but after reading these forums I for one have decided to stay away from them. Thank you everyone!
 

JephC

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Current update:

I'm new to this, so please bear with me, but hello, all! A pleasure to meet you all!
I have recently had some experience working with Black Rose Writing, and so far, my experience has been relatively positive. I'll admit, aside from a few published short stories, my publishing experience is relatively low and on a steep learning curve. But here are a few things I found:
After reading through some of the PublishAmerica posts, I was curious about contract lengths. The original contract I was offered from Black Rose was for three years. With no hesitation, Black Rose dropped it down to two years at my request.
On their site, Black Rose lists using Lightning Source Inc. for their printing, which appears to have a vast amount of clients and is owned by Ingram Press.
There are now a few published authors listed on their website aside from the company owner, including one author who has a review on a novel by James Rollins, a bestselling New York Times author. The reviewed novel was not published through Black Rose Writing, but the author does have a novel now published through Black Rose.
The company also says they will buy back unsold books from bookstores.
They are also part of the IBPA (Independent Book Publisher's Association)
Again, I'm relatively new to the publishing game, but these all stood out as positives, especially after reading through some of the forums on here.
Pricewise, the books all seem to be around the $15 mark for trade paperback, a far cry from the $25 mark it seems from PA.
Hopefully these are steps in the right direction for Black Rose Writing. I'm curious to see what you think of this. There seem to be a great deal of educated and intelligent writers in this forum, and I'm very excited to advance my learning in the field of publishing with your help!
 

veinglory

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I would say that one of their authors having written a book reveiw means less than nothing, and $15 is steep even comparing POD to POD (between real publishers).

What is meaningful is whether the books sell in significant quantities. Best of luck, but I still see nothing to recommend this press.
 
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JephC

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PS

As well, in the contract, the copyright is taken out under my name.
 

Marian Perera

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Is the publisher actually putting books in bookstores? If they're not, then a promise to buy back unsold books doesn't mean much.

The fact that one of Black Rose Writing's authors had a NYT bestselling author review a novel not published through BRW doesn't seem significant to me. PublishAmerica has an author who was published by Daw in the seventies or eighties, but who now went with PA for his own reasons. Doesn't mean PA is a good choice for other writers.

After that I checked Black Rose Writing's website, and saw this:

[FONT=Modern, sans-serif]
Let us do your editing and rewriting,

I would have thought that publishers edit as a matter of course... and that authors do rewriting. However, some of the sentence constructions on the website are clunky, and the book description I looked at wouldn't have inspired me to buy the book.

This marvelous book contains a unique combination of prose interspersed with over 90 poems!... In this first book, only a few tales are told.

I'd have checked out more of the descriptions, but they're all in pdf form, which takes longer for my computer to open, plus I can't copy anything from them.
 

JephC

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Review

Sorry...I should have been more clear. The author didn't write the review on the bestselling author's book (in this case James Rollins). Rollins wrote a review for the author's book.
 

JephC

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I did look up a price on a similar sized trade paperback book, with nearly the same page count, and produced by Harper Collins. It has the price listed at $14 US, $17.50 CAN.
I'm sure the fact that it's a well-established writer helps the price, but seems comparable.
Thank you for the responses!
 

JephC

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The author of which I was speaking has a few reviews on his work by best-selling authors (there are more than one, and authors I do recognize), which hopefully suggests a hint of credibility as an author and towards the publishing companies he selects. I know to still be careful, though,especially after reading through the Publish America posts (eep...those are frightening to say the least).
 

veinglory

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It looks like Mr Park is good at getting quotes from bestselling authors (which he seems to do on his own): http://www.wrparkbooks.com/

The Amazon rank for the same book (p.s. which Amazon says is published by Winterwolf Publishing, a press that folded unceremoniously) is #6,164,647 -- meaning no recent sales. If he had even one sale int he last week or so the rank would be 50,000 or lower. The same can be said of all BRW books on Amazon. The same author's earlier books are published by Publish America.

$15 isn't crazy expensive but I would call it average at best; other small presses manage more like $11-12.

My estimate would be that triple figure sales would be about the best you could expect at BRW. In which case there are probably many better options. In the end the trappings and the suits don't matter. The question is: do they sell books?
 
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JephC

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Thank you for your help. I will certainly be frequenting these forums often, I think!
 

JephC

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The newest release for them is listed at 225,976 on the Amazon sales rank after about a week. How is that ranking? I'm new to the rankings, so just enjoying really all the learning curves coming my way
 

JephC

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And one other question...what's the requisites necessary to get a listing on writer's market as a publisher?