Israel's refusers
- Thread starter Michael Wolfe
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Conscription is government-speak for slavery, except with bullets whizzing at you. You're very fortunate that you didn't have to gather around a TV with your friends one night to see which of you were going to get a free trip to Vietnam or opt for a self-paid relocation to Canada.
Got no problem with either choice in the Viet Name era. I have a problem with those who came back after amnesty.
I'd question the wisdom of universal conscription, which is certainly nothing like slavery, and don't expect anyone to volunteer to serve, but if you are called, there is a responsibility to serve. It's not up to just those too poor to avoid service to maintain our way of life. On the other hand if you don't respect that way of life it's fine to leave it, permanently.
I'd question the wisdom of universal conscription, which is certainly nothing like slavery, and don't expect anyone to volunteer to serve, but if you are called, there is a responsibility to serve. It's not up to just those too poor to avoid service to maintain our way of life. On the other hand if you don't respect that way of life it's fine to leave it, permanently.
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Not a big fan of conscription anywhere. In Israel's case it's one reason attitudes have hardened so significantly on that side, as everyone is subject to the military perspective on things. (N.B. I said 'one', not primary, major, etc.)
I'm a little surprised to hear they're jailing these kids now - I have a character who's sarvanin (refuser) in a book I wrote a few years ago, and at the time, that kind of punishment was pretty uncommon. Speaks to the current situation, I suppose.
I'm a little surprised to hear they're jailing these kids now - I have a character who's sarvanin (refuser) in a book I wrote a few years ago, and at the time, that kind of punishment was pretty uncommon. Speaks to the current situation, I suppose.
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Did you really just say (obliquely) 'love it or leave it?'
How is conscription 'nothing like' slavery?
If enough people don't volunteer to serve in an army either in times of peace or war, perhaps the nation needs to reexamine itself, its army, or the war it's engaging in, rather than just suggest anyone who doesn't agree should leave.
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Indeed. Exactly so, doubtless.
It does seem a strange decision. You'd think a more productive and more sensible way might be found for them to be ambulance-drivers (maybe not the best example), or some other kind of public servants instead of doing military service per se? It's easy to say that, from this distance, probably.
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Seems possible. But of course Israel has had this policy for a long time, so I think it's hard to make a clear connection between conscription and a general shift in perspective. And importantly, the military perspective is really a host of different perspectives rather than a single one. Admittedly I only know a handful of people who have served in the IDF, but they seem like a pretty diverse group, imo.
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I'd agree it'd be hard to understand any kind of recent shift in this, except maybe as a sort of positive feedback loop.
I did find what looks like a really interesting study on the subject, and it looks like the full text is available:
https://sites.sas.upenn.edu/ggros/p...towards-war-and-peace-among-israeli-ex-combat
They do both a pooled and a separate analysis from 1998 to 2012. Full disclosure that I haven't read it yet, but I'm definitely going to take a look at it when I get home tonight.
I did find what looks like a really interesting study on the subject, and it looks like the full text is available:
https://sites.sas.upenn.edu/ggros/p...towards-war-and-peace-among-israeli-ex-combat
They do both a pooled and a separate analysis from 1998 to 2012. Full disclosure that I haven't read it yet, but I'm definitely going to take a look at it when I get home tonight.
I bet you're another one of those people who didn't read the "social contract" before you signed it, aren't you?
Compulsory military service!?! I cannot comment on the situation in America. But in Israel it's easier than ever before.
My son refused to do his duty in 2010. My daughter last year. I'm fucking proud of them!
All it takes is a psychologist's diagnosis--end of army.
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Given that the American way of life was not compromised by America's defeat in Vietnam, it follows logically that the Vietnam War was not fought to maintain the American way of life.
The American way of life was not threatened by the North Vietnamese therefore choosing not to be conscripted for that particular war at least, did not constitute a lack of respect for the American way of life and therefore such a choice did not impose a moral burden on anyone to stay away from America permanently.
On the contrary, imposing a type of slavery on people for the sake of a war which did not compromise the American way of life, compromised the American way of life.
Good for them.
In Australia when there was conscription for the Vietnam War, all you had to do (so I'm told) was wear wet socks for a few days before presenting for your pre-conscription medical.
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I'm not sure everyone who doesn't choose to join an army would either desire or qualify for some kind of psychological diagnosis.
I totally agree. It shouldn't be necessary and neither should cultivating tinea.
However, when politicians see other humans as objects to be used and manipulated or minor characters whose narratives can be legitimately hijacked, sometimes those people may need to resort to a psychological diagnosis or tinea in order to remain the subjects of their own narratives and the owners of their own lives.
This.
Forcing someone else to risk their life and/or kill other people for a cause they do not believe is a just cause strikes me as even more evil than the garden-variety, forced-labor version of slavery.
Good point! But instead of speaking of "an army", let's look at the IDF:
1. Unlike other armies, the IDF is there to defend its people ...or Israel would have been wiped out long ago.
2. Hence, the IDF can ill-afford to employ saboteurs. Compulsory conscription runs counterproductive to it.
3. The IDF's state-of-the-art equipment is another decisive factor--they don't need as much canon fodder as before.
4. In the past it was next to impossible not to serve in the IDF. Refuseniks were treated like traitors. They were social outcasts.
5. A shrink's diagnosis still is a guarantee to be labelled for the rest of your life. Theses days, though, the social pressure has eased.
6. Especially for males, the IDF is their first step on the career ladder. Anyone who has served can at least count on a job as a civil servant.
7. Ok, no job for my children in the public sector, but to fucking hell with it. They hold two other passports.
8. 80% of Israelis have at least dual citizenship. This is another biggie for the policy makers of Israel (= IDF).
9. It’s also possible to dodge the IDF draft on religious grounds.
And perhaps the easiest way to be spared from doing one’s service relates to the status of one’s parents. I entered their books as a troublemaker when I challenged the Ministry of the Interior on my children’s birth certificates. It said in black and white, nationality “Jewish”. I was arguing that a denomination … and two days later I get a free ride to Ben Gurion Airport, plus a free flight to Europe—deported. Leaving a wife and two children behind, ah, never the mind.
My son left Israel in 2011. My daughter left last year. Yippie!!
End of fucking IDF derail.
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True, although just this year Israel passed a new law attempting to get more ultra-orthodox Jews to serve in the IDF. Fairly controversial, it seems.
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What? Other armies do what, knit shawls?
This still confuses me, heh.
As before what? How long has Israel had nukes? How long has Israel had the same state-of-the-art equipment used in the U.S.? As long as the U.S. has, pretty much.
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I'm not Robbert, but he said in his first post in the thread that he's proud of his children for not serving. A psychologist's diagnosis is one common method used in Israel by those who choose not to serve, though it does tend to affect one's future career prospects. I didn't think his post was difficult to understand, personally.
Israel actually has quite a bit of technology that's unique to the IDF, and some of it is fairly new. The Iron Dome, for example.
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Yeah, I know - though I don't know that that's particularly new or unique. It simply works there as they've had enough money (thanks, again, largely in part to the U.S.) to implement technology that works in a smaller area better.
rab - Ooops, my bad. Cue reading is fundamental rainbow noise. Thanks for pointing that out!
I understood it to mean that you don't want people who won't fit into a cohesive unit. If a military isn't voluntary, you run a higher risk of having soldiers who will hold you back rather than make you stronger. So you wouldn't want, say, a hardcore pacifist, for example. Or, you wouldn't want someone serving in the West Bank if they're strongly opposed to the occupation, etc.
The first time they used it was in 2011. Seems fairly recent to me. As for unique--I suppose I could be mistaken, but I'm not aware of any other countries that have an Iron Dome system.
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