Oh yeah, by the way... Russia's begun its invasion of Ukraine

sulong · Aug 23, 2014

StormChord said:
Wait, but that doesn't negate the fact that Russia is attacking them. Even if it's a counterattack, it's still an invasion, not "humanitarian aid".

From one of williams links

Russia’s Permanent Mission to NATO, in a statement, accused the alliance of indifference to humanitarian suffering in eastern Ukraine and described its protests over the entry of a Russian aid convoy into Ukraine without Red Cross escorts as “another cynical attempt to cover the crimes of Ukrainian authorities.”

Mr. Rasmussen did not say how many Russian artillery pieces had moved into Ukraine or where they were located, but one Western official said the number of Russian-operated artillery units was “substantial.”

All of it reads to me like some squishy propaganda bs from both sides. "Invasion" sounds over the top to me.

The Russian humanitarian convoy has been in the planning for some time now.
Why hasn't the west sent one of their own to help the civilians in this crisis?

One might think that eastern Ukrainians civilians are no better than Palestinian civilians.

Sick of the drum-beat for war from all corners. It's almost like the in thing to do nowadays.

backslashbaby · Aug 23, 2014

sulong said:
That's the sort that Kiev has been delivering all along.

As you'd expect when being invaded, no?

The Crimea has been historically unusual in the region forever, basically, but the Ukraine proper really is a different nation, as Russia often seems to forget.

backslashbaby · Aug 23, 2014

sulong said:
From one of williams links

All of it reads to me like some squishy propaganda bs from both sides. "Invasion" sounds over the top to me.

The Russian humanitarian convoy has been in the planning for some time now.
Why hasn't the west sent one of their own to help the civilians in this crisis?

One might think that eastern Ukrainians civilians are no better than Palestinian civilians.

Sick of the drum-beat for war from all corners. It's almost like the in thing to do nowadays.

If not an invasion (of some sort), what do you think is and has been going on?

Why is the humanitarian aid needed? Ukrainian fascist aggression? I'm asking seriously. What is the rationale for Russia's actions this whole time?

Michael Wolfe · Aug 23, 2014

William Haskins said:
i'm not sure what you're having a hard time making sense of... sounds like you're just in a hair-splitting mood.

It was the "all parties" part. The clarification you made is helpful, though.

Still, it's not so much an issue of splitting hairs. I suppose I see things quite a bit differently, in terms of the idea of Russia on one side and westerners who saw Crimea as an end in itself on the other. Even Obama seemed to understand and acknowledge that Putin might not take over Crimea and simply call it a day, as did other western leaders.

Did Obama and others not take Putin as seriously as they should've? Arguable, imo.

William Haskins · Aug 23, 2014

actually, i give the president credit for vocal condemnation and sanctions that were probably about the best he could come up with in a difficult equation.

the brussels speech was sort of weak sauce, though.

sulong · Aug 23, 2014

backslashbaby said:
If not an invasion (of some sort), what do you think is and has been going on?

Why is the humanitarian aid needed? Ukrainian fascist aggression? I'm asking seriously. What is the rationale for Russia's actions this whole time?

The way I understand this thing, it all started when the EU attempted to drive a wedge between Russia and Ukraine political and economic relationship.

The EU was successful in disposing the democratically elected Ukrainian president.

The new Ukrainian regime are being heavy handed with putting down those Ukraine citizens who disagree with the new government who was forced upon them.

Back and forth, back and forth, back and forth....

There's a lot of death and misery. One side gets outside help, I see no reason why the other side ought not to get outside help.

backslashbaby · Aug 23, 2014

sulong said:
The way I understand this thing, it all started when the EU attempted to drive a wedge between Russia and Ukraine political and economic relationship.

The EU was successful in disposing the democratically elected Ukrainian president.

The new Ukrainian regime are being heavy handed with putting down those Ukraine citizens who disagree with the new government who was forced upon them.

Back and forth, back and forth, back and forth....

There's a lot of death and misery. One side gets outside help, I see no reason why the other side ought not to get outside help.

That sounds reasonable enough, but I disagree that it's what has happened. I'll have to take some time to gather some good links to explain what I think is going on.

I do see elements of truth in what you said, absolutely, but there is a spin to it that is easy to believe because of common political beliefs nowadays, imho: Do you trust Putin or the EU and the US? I can see how folks are very tempted to not trust the EU and US and to see the information coming out as just Cold War propaganda.

I lived in Eastern Europe right after the fall of Soviet Communism so I'm not likely to trust Russian leaders at all, but certainly a healthy skepticism about the West is also necessary, imho.

Alessandra Kelley · Aug 23, 2014

sulong said:
The way I understand this thing, it all started when the EU attempted to drive a wedge between Russia and Ukraine political and economic relationship.

The EU was successful in disposing the democratically elected Ukrainian president.

The new Ukrainian regime are being heavy handed with putting down those Ukraine citizens who disagree with the new government who was forced upon them.

Back and forth, back and forth, back and forth....

There's a lot of death and misery. One side gets outside help, I see no reason why the other side ought not to get outside help.

backslashbaby said:
That sounds reasonable enough, but I disagree that it's what has happened. I'll have to take some time to gather some good links to explain what I think is going on.

I do see elements of truth in what you said, absolutely, but there is a spin to it that is easy to believe because of common political beliefs nowadays, imho: Do you trust Putin or the EU and the US? I can see how folks are very tempted to not trust the EU and US and to see the information coming out as just Cold War propaganda.

I lived in Eastern Europe right after the fall of Soviet Communism so I'm not likely to trust Russian leaders at all, but certainly a healthy skepticism about the West is also necessary, imho.

AW has had an extremely detailed thread about the Ukraine situation since last year:
http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=281360

I would hesitate to characterize the flight to Russia of Ukraine's exceedingly corrupt pro-Russian president, who abandoned his wife and his enormous, unpaid-for mansions and estates, at least one illegally built in a protected national forest, in the wake of public protests after he scuttled at the last moment an immensely popular with the people of Ukraine, carefully brokered years-long free-trade deal with the EU with no explanation (but widely believed to be pressure from Russia), as "the EU attempted to drive a wedge between Russia and Ukraine political and economic relationship."

However, the situation is indeed complex.

I strongly recommend reading that thread.

backslashbaby · Aug 23, 2014

I have been reading that thread. I was just going to put together a summary argument to sulong based on her specific post in this thread. I might have added a few points of my own, too, but that's not to say that that current thread isn't great.

I won't go over old ground here in this new thread, though. I'll focus on new information then.

robeiae · Aug 23, 2014

They Look and Feel Human. Some are programmed to think they are Human. There are many copies. And they have a Plan.

sulong · Aug 23, 2014

robeiae said:
They Look and Feel Human. Some are programmed to think they are Human. There are many copies. And they have a Plan.

On top of that, they sometimes lie. Claim to be alive, when clearly they're not.

Xelebes · Aug 28, 2014

Siege of Mariopol is coming up. Ukrainian armour columns in the city, waiting for the Russian assault.

jennontheisland · Aug 28, 2014

William Haskins said:
deliciously snobbish. you should be proud.

glad to see the NYT and time magazine have finally arrived within tugging distance of your hem...

isn't it precious how they find the actual breach of ukranian soil by proper russian fighters to be significant news?

fucking rookies.

It is nice to see the American news outlets finally catch up with the rest of the world.

Xelebes · Aug 28, 2014

Compulsory military service has been put into effect in Ukraine by Poroshenko come September. Beefing up the backlines it looks like as those conscripted will not see the front lines.

robjvargas · Aug 28, 2014

Alessandra Kelley said:
Pretty much. It's a tangled historical mess, but basically Russia could claim with a straight face that historically the Crimea was always a part of Russia and that it had zero interest, honest, in grabbing any more territory as long as the world let it keep that one illegal land grab.

Sorry to Godwin, but I can't help thinking about The Sudetenland when I see that.

William Haskins · Aug 28, 2014

jennontheisland said:
It is nice to see the American news outlets finally catch up with the rest of the world.

lol

Oh yeah, by the way... Russia's begun its invasion of Ukraine

sulong

It's a matter of what is.

backslashbaby

*

backslashbaby

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Michael Wolfe

Jambo Bwana

William Haskins

poet

sulong

It's a matter of what is.

backslashbaby

*

Alessandra Kelley

Sophipygian

backslashbaby

*

robeiae

Touch and go

sulong

It's a matter of what is.

Xelebes

Delerium ex Ennui

jennontheisland

the world is at my command

Xelebes

Delerium ex Ennui

robjvargas

William Haskins

poet

Oh yeah, by the way... Russia's begun its invasion of Ukraine

It's a matter of what is.

~~~~*~~~~

~~~~*~~~~

Jambo Bwana

poet

It's a matter of what is.

~~~~*~~~~

Sophipygian

~~~~*~~~~

Touch and go

It's a matter of what is.

Delerium ex Ennui

the world is at my command

Delerium ex Ennui

poet

*

*

*

*