Do you have a right to privacy (and to call Obama a "nigger?")

missesdash

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Update: my 22-year-old son (gamer nerd, internet wiz, computer engineering major, social media participant) did not know that you could post in FB to a subset of friends. So HA! :tongue

Can't be that much if an Internet wiz if he doesn't know how to use Facebook haha. I mean when they roll out the new stuff it's all over tech blogs and they make a point to explain it when you log in.

So either he's lying or mom is extra generous about his positive attributes. As a person with a mom, I'll lean towards the second haha.
 

thebloodfiend

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Sure, but society has to draw a line somewhere about who we treat as children - and thus not entirely responsible for their own actions - and who we treat as adults. Whatever the age of majority is wherever you are, that's when you have to start owning your words and your actions yourself...

You don't magically gain responsibility at 18 and become a full fledged adult, full of wisdom and self control. And while, yes, some people are so underdeveloped that they can't be held accountable for their actions, we have determined that that "I'm a kid" isn't an excuse for everything. And it shouldn't be an excuse for malicious behavior at all, IMO, past sixth grade. We certainly don't excuse "kids" for bullying because of their age. We don't say "Well, Timmy, sorry Johnny stuck your head in the toilet, but we aren't going to punish him because he isn't 18 yet," or "We're sorry Meg called you a slut, Jill, and wrote it all over your locker in lipstick, but she's only 16 so we can't do anything."

You have to ease people into responsibility and accountability and consequences. Otherwise, you end up with people like Dharun Ravi who have no idea how the world works. And at 16, you should probably know that spewing "I hate niggers" on the internet with your real name will have a consequence. If you don't, well, I have no sympathy for you.

But age restrictions don't really make sense in the US. Driving at sixteen. Potential to be emancipated at sixteen with no precedent of abuse. Military service at seventeen. Smoking and voting at eighteen. But no drinking until twenty-one.

And I don't know what distinction you're talking about. These kids would get less flack in real life. If they tried this shit in school, they'd get suspended. Or worse. Who wants to test it? Tell a white teenager to go into any zero tolerance school, saying they want to hang fags and niggers and they want the entire first family to die in a fire. Make them scream it at the top of their lungs. Because that's essentially what they did. They're getting a slap on the wrist right now. If that.

Remember Jena 6?
 

Chrissy

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Can't be that much if an Internet wiz if he doesn't know how to use Facebook haha. I mean when they roll out the new stuff it's all over tech blogs and they make a point to explain it when you log in.

So either he's lying or mom is extra generous about his positive attributes. As a person with a mom, I'll lean towards the second haha.
Yeah, well... *sheepish look*

He IS very smart and he practically typed on a keyboard before he spoke, but I don't think he's ever cared very much about social media. He's a gamer. He talks to people through headphones mostly. I'm sure it's true that most kids know about the FB feature, especially if they NEED to hide from their parents.

And some of the posts I do read from him on FB... I mean, he's obviously not "sparing" me from curse words and pictures of hot women and what not....

Still waiting for the 14 y.o. to get home from school.... this is all your guys' fault. Ignorance was bliss. :D

Nate just texted me again and said, "If you don't want them to read your posts, just unfriend them, lol."
 
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Jcomp

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So you think it's okay to confront them, as long as you don't show anybody else what they said? Not how twitter works.

Hell, that's not even how internet works. Hell-squared, that's not even how information works in the 21st century.

newspapers, news, and blogs... They [take] information and [post] it elsewhere. Some of it makes a person look bad...

Sometimes it even makes them look bad when they didn't do anything wrong and didn't directly or indirectly attach their public information to a public statement.
 

Chrissy

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My 14-year-old didn't know either. He said, "Send the ones you want to talk to a private message."

Oh well. I don't know if we have small-town syndrome or something or if it's just that my boys aren't all that into FB.
 

missesdash

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My 14-year-old didn't know either. He said, "Send the ones you want to talk to a private message."

Oh well. I don't know if we have small-town syndrome or something or if it's just that my boys aren't all that into FB.

Well his method is easier if it's a conversation. But if you don't want to receive everyone's reply (and everyone receives each reply) it's better to post as a status and pick who can read it.

Now you guys know! Go forth and be secretive.
 

Chrissy

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Well his method is easier if it's a conversation. But if you don't want to receive everyone's reply (and everyone receives each reply) it's better to post as a status and pick who can read it.

Now you guys know! Go forth and be secretive.
:D

I can't tell you how many times I would have used the f-word on FB if only my mother wasn't going to read it...
 

Torgo

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You don't magically gain responsibility at 18 and become a full fledged adult, full of wisdom and self control. And while, yes, some people are so underdeveloped that they can't be held accountable for their actions, we have determined that that "I'm a kid" isn't an excuse for everything.

We agree about that; part of the point that I was making is that, absent a magical and obvious transformation, it's hard to tell when a given person attains maturity. In order to cut that Gordian knot, we set the bar fairly conservatively for things like criminal responsibility, though there are cases in which a child can be tried as an adult or an adult can be deemed not to meet that standard. It's important to note, though, that such determinations are made by courts and by experts, not by juries.

I realise it's a mess. We set different ages in different jurisdictions for things like the age of consent, the age you can drink, drive, smoke or own a gun. There's little consistency, which reflects - as I alluded to in my previous post - the arbitrary nature of the line that is being drawn.

However, that line is drawn for the protection of people who aren't mature enough to be held fully responsible for their actions. And while it may well shield people who are fully aware of their own malice - and you give some good examples - to err on the side of caution is the best policy.

I want to also make it clear that I don't say 'being a kid is an excuse for everything'. We ought to treat bad kids like bad kids. There ought to be systems in place - parents, schools, the police and the courts where necessary - to punish and correct their behaviour if at all possible. In some cases it's reasonable to treat them as bad adults, but I don't think Joe Bloggs gets to make that call.

I don't think we disagree too much:

We don't say "Well, Timmy, sorry Johnny stuck your head in the toilet, but we aren't going to punish him because he isn't 18 yet," or "We're sorry Meg called you a slut, Jill, and wrote it all over your locker in lipstick, but she's only 16 so we can't do anything."

No, we don't. We treat them like bad kids. Parents or teachers discipline them. We don't absolve them, we deal with them. But we don't necessarily call the cops on them for assault, or swear out a writ for slander.

You have to ease people into responsibility and accountability and consequences. Otherwise, you end up with people like Dharun Ravi who have no idea how the world works.

Quite, and that's surely what adolescence ought to be. You get a little more latitude and you get to make a mistake or two without it following you round for the rest of your life.

And at 16, you should probably know that spewing "I hate niggers" on the internet with your real name will have a consequence. If you don't, well, I have no sympathy for you.

Again - sure. You seem to be arguing that we should draw the line at 16 or lower, and reasonable people can certainly agree where that goes. You go on to rightly point out the mess of vaguely contradictory regulations based around age - I agree it's not consistent. But I don't think you would seriously advocate not having that line at all, right? At some point we have to say, anyone younger than this is a kid and not subject to quite the same severity of sanction as someone a year older?
 

thebloodfiend

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But I don't think you would seriously advocate not having that line at all, right? At some point we have to say, anyone younger than this is a kid and not subject to quite the same severity of sanction as someone a year older?

I don't think I've ever said that. The entire basis of this thread, and the article, is that because they are teens, they should have little, if no consequences for their actions. Or that they should be ignored. Or that it was wrong (perhaps illegal) to repost info they made readily available that could be so easily made private because the impulse control sections of their brains haven't formed yet.

That last sentence I agree with, but it has nothing to do with them being teens and everything to do with them being obnoxious racists. Ten-years down the road if they hadn't been caught and called out now, they'd probably be doing the exact same thing. And some of them might've joined hate groups and/or carried out their talk.
 

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I don't think I've ever said that. The entire basis of this thread, and the article, is that because they are teens, they should have little, if no consequences for their actions. Or that they should be ignored. Or that it was wrong (perhaps illegal) to repost info they made readily available that could be so easily made private because the impulse control sections of their brains haven't formed yet.

.

This is not an accurate summation of the "entire basis of this thread." It's not even an accurate summation of the opinions, varied as they are, that have been expressed.
 

thebloodfiend

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This is not an accurate summation of the "entire basis of this thread." It's not even an accurate summation of the opinions, varied as they are, that have been expressed.

If you say so. That is exactly what the Slate article was about and that is what this thread was based on -- whether or not kids should be "outed" for being racist little shits. Whether or not the thread evolved to something else does not change the fact that it was born from an article about not giving "kids" the same consequences for their words as adults because it's "mean".

The name of the slate article, for goddsake, is " Hey Internet, Quit Outing Kids for Racism." It even ends with this: "Racist teenagers don’t need the Internet police running them down. They’ve got enough problems."

For a second, I thought it was being satirical.
 

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The Slate story was part of it, sure, but not all of it.

Back on topic, I very much agree with this:

You don't magically gain responsibility at 18 and become a full fledged adult, full of wisdom and self control.

But right and wrong starts a whole lot earlier than the age of consent.
 

poetinahat

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The thing about posting anything on the Internet is that, even if it's a private message, you have no control over where it goes once it's in someone else's hands.

That's no different from any sort of communication, of course. Except in the ease with which that message can be reproduced and made available to a huge, worldwide audience.

Just ask Claire Swire.
 

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But right and wrong starts a whole lot earlier than the age of consent.
Exactly. Little kids get time-out. Older kids lose toy and game privileges. Early teens lose TV and computer privileges. Older teens get grounded, or get the car keys taken away from them. They learn early on that choices and actions engender certain results. Their parents, their teachers, their friends, authorities, and the world in general impose rewards and punishments.

If they're old enough to use Twitter, it shouldn't come as a surprise to them that their actions have consequences.
 

Celia Cyanide

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I am not defending racist asshats. I'm saying that ganging up on anyone whose views disagree with your own is not the way to do things.

I really haven't gotten into the valid opinion vs. invalid opinion debate, but someone with an opposing viewpoint is not the same thing as someone engaging in hate speech. This blog is not just a collection comments from people who are unhappy about the turnout of the election. The blog owner did not just find a bunch of posts s/he didn't agree with. Instead, what we have is many examples of people saying horrible, hateful things we want to believe no one outside of the KKK says anymore, when in fact, they do.
 

mccardey

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Ten-years down the road if they hadn't been caught and called out now, they'd probably be doing the exact same thing. And some of them might've joined hate groups and/or carried out their talk.

A lot of them will end up doing this sort of thing...

From today's Guardian (and everywhere else as well.)

Melbourne bus racist abuse video puts Australian attitudes on trial
Woman singing in French was told to 'speak English or die' and threatened with stabbing, YouTube footage shows

Police in the Australian city of Melbourne are investigating the racist abuse of a French-speaking woman travelling on a bus in which she was told by a man to "speak English or die". The verbal abuse, captured on video by another passenger, shows a second man threatening to cut the woman with a knife.

Makes me feel sick. Sick and very angry. :rant:
 
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fireluxlou

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A lot of them will end up doing this sort of thing...

From today's Guardian (and everywhere else as well.)



Makes me feel sick. Sick and very angry. :rant:

Omg :( I don't understand hostility towards people who know other languages besides English. It doesn't make sense. Australia has a whole host of problems with how it treats its Native Aboriginal people (they were classed as Flora and Fauna until the 1967 referendum, not as people). So I'm not surprised really :/

I do know people who were in my year group who grew up to be part of the EDL and BNP the minute they turned 18, and we all know what those hateful groups do and where they hang out, and what sort of tattoos they get.
 
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nighttimer

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I don't think I've ever said that. The entire basis of this thread, and the article, is that because they are teens, they should have little, if no consequences for their actions. Or that they should be ignored. Or that it was wrong (perhaps illegal) to repost info they made readily available that could be so easily made private because the impulse control sections of their brains haven't formed yet.

That last sentence I agree with, but it has nothing to do with them being teens and everything to do with them being obnoxious racists. Ten-years down the road if they hadn't been caught and called out now, they'd probably be doing the exact same thing. And some of them might've joined hate groups and/or carried out their talk.

This is not an accurate summation of the "entire basis of this thread." It's not even an accurate summation of the opinions, varied as they are, that have been expressed.

If you say so. That is exactly what the Slate article was about and that is what this thread was based on -- whether or not kids should be "outed" for being racist little shits. Whether or not the thread evolved to something else does not change the fact that it was born from an article about not giving "kids" the same consequences for their words as adults because it's "mean".

No, Cory. Williebee is right. This thread wasn't "born from an article." It was born from a Tumbir page that lifted racist tweets and Facebook posts and put them on display (along with the posters name, schools, hometowns and occupations) for all the world to see.

Your summation is inaccurate. It isn't that I favor no social sanctions against those young people for their dim-witted and hateful remarks. It's more that I don't believe the dim-witted and hateful brain farts of the young should eternally damn them as the worst sort of bigots walking upright even as their knuckles drag the dirt.

Your disdain for them is obvious. It may even be justifiable. But I subscribe to Malcolm X's admonishment about not being so quick to pass final judgments upon others: "Don't be in a hurry to condemn because he doesn't do what you do or think as you think or as fast. There was a time when you didn't know what you know today."
 

thebloodfiend

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No, Cory. Williebee is right. This thread wasn't "born from an article." It was born from a Tumbir page that lifted racist tweets and Facebook posts and put them on display (along with the posters name, schools, hometowns and occupations) for all the world to see.
For the hundredth time, the Tumblr page put already public information on display for people who use Tumblr to see. It would be like you, writing an article on this thread and taking my already public information (my name, location, and school) and putting it on your blog along with links to my posts. It simply gives the info, that I am posting in public, a wider audience.

If there's anything to take qualms with, it's what Jezebel did not "Hellothereracists."
Your summation is inaccurate. It isn't that I favor no social sanctions against those young people for their dim-witted and hateful remarks. It's more that I don't believe the dim-witted and hateful brain farts of the young should eternally damn them as the worst sort of bigots walking upright even as their knuckles drag the dirt.
And if they were that concerned about their futures, they would've been smarter. The Tumblr page doesn't really do anything they didn't do. The tweets would've still been there, unless they decided to delete them later, which they've now done, thanks to the Tumblr page. They still would've been searchable by employers and college admission folks. Does the Tumblr page misrepresent them in any kind of way? Does it twist their words or make them seem more hateful than they really are? No. It simply reposts exactly what they said with the info they already provided.

That is the nature of tumblr, for anyone who's never used it before -- reposting links from Twitter and Tumblr. It is made for reposting things from websites or posting witty memes or anything you can think of.
Your disdain for them is obvious. It may even be justifiable.
I'm sure.
But I subscribe to Malcolm X's admonishment about not being so quick to pass final judgments upon others: "Don't be in a hurry to condemn because he doesn't do what you do or think as you think or as fast. There was a time when you didn't know what you know today."
None of them have issued apologies. Until they do, I will judge them. Instead, they have claimed they were hacked or deleted the posts or made even more racist remarks in response.

To address your quote -- how many of us here knew being a racist douche-bag wasn't cool and fun when we were six? All of us? That's kind of what I thought. If this was not knowing "I'm colorblind" is ridiculous, I'd agree. I know people in their twenties who don't understand what being "colorblind" means. This is something as simple as not calling people niggers and threatening to hang them. A concept they should understand at their age, as quite a few of them are already out of high school and all of them passed the first grade.

I will apologize for mischaracterizing the intent of the OP. But, really, we all know this wouldn't be a problem if these idiots hadn't tweeted their tweets to begin with. This is their fault. No one else can take the blame for their idiocy. I don't see any reason to not judge them. They're old enough to hang out with me -- they're my peers. If anyone here has any right to judge them, it's me. I hang out with people their age every single day.
 
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mccardey

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I subscribe to Malcolm X's admonishment about not being so quick to pass final judgments upon others: "Don't be in a hurry to condemn because he doesn't do what you do or think as you think or as fast. There was a time when you didn't know what you know today."

We can still judge the behaviour, though, right? Or do we just sit silent on the bus while somebody else is being abused? Because we don't want to make things worse...
 

nighttimer

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For the hundredth time, the Tumblr page put already public information on display for people who use Tumblr to see. It would be like you, writing an article on this thread and taking my already public information (my name, location, and school) and putting it on your blog along with links to my posts. It simply gives the info, that I am posting in public, a wider audience.

But I would never take your already public information and put it on my blog. The only reason to share that information with others would be to say in effect, "Can you believe this guy? Somebody should call him out. I won't, but somebody should."

It wasn't necessary to provide anything other than the name of those who published than their racist rants on Twitter and Facebook. Shaking one's head in outraged disgust is one thing. Hanging someone's ass out in cyberspace is quite another.

Earlier this year, I wrote a negative review of a smooth jazz artist. The musician disliked my review as much as I disliked his album. He reposted the review on his Facebook page, whined to his "friends" how mean I was to him and provided a link to my personal blog.

Next thing I know, I've got 20 to 30 replied on my blog from his buddies and they're ripping me from my ass to my appetite. At first I appreciated the increased site visits, but then I got tired of responding to angry fans and let it run its course.

I get it that you want to slam those who slammed Obama and by extension all the other "darkies and niggers" they spewed venom at. But barring all those posters becoming Absolute Write members or jacking into their Twitter and Facebook feeds, how can you call these morons out?

thebloodfiend said:
If there's anything to take qualms with, it's what Jezebel did not "Hellothereracists."And if they were that concerned about their futures, they would've been smarter. The Tumblr page doesn't really do anything they didn't do. The tweets would've still been there, unless they decided to delete them later, which they've now done, thanks to the Tumblr page. They still would've been searchable by employers and college admission folks. Does the Tumblr page misrepresent them in any kind of way? Does it twist their words or make them seem more hateful than they really are? No. It simply reposts exactly what they said with the info they already provided.

Yes, but those are simply spontaneous outbursts captured eternally by the permanence of the Internet where everything is written in ink, not pencil. It's hard to scrub away the marks we leave in our posts. Some prospective employers want to be able to pick up the bread crumbs you leave on the web. They shouldn't have that right, but some are asserting they do.

Is there nothing you have ever said, bloodfiend you would prefer a prospective not know about?

thebloodfiend said:
To address your quote -- how many of us here knew being a racist douche-bag wasn't cool and fun when we were six? All of us? That's kind of what I thought. If this was not knowing "I'm colorblind" is ridiculous, I'd agree. I know people in their twenties who don't understand what being "colorblind" means. This is something as simple as not calling people niggers and threatening to hang them. A concept they should understand at their age, as quite a few of them are already out of high school and all of them passed the first grade.

I'm sure most of these individuals in question do understand calling people "niggers" and threatening to hang them or watch them burn alive are aware of how repulsive that sounds to many people, but that might be exactly the effect they were going for and why they are saying it.

I don't believe in the concept of colorblindness. Even a blind man can be a bigot. Colorblindness is a goal, not a destination.

thebloodfiend said:
I will apologize for mischaracterizing the intent of the OP. But, really, we all know this wouldn't be a problem if these idiots hadn't tweeted their tweets to begin with. This is their fault. No one else can take the blame for their idiocy. I don't see any reason to not judge them. They're old enough to hang out with me -- they're my peers. If anyone here has any right to judge them, it's me. I hang out with people their age every single day.

But that doesn't give you the right to judge them. You can decide, "Okay, these assholes are a bunch of racist fucktards and I wouldn't waste my piss on them if they were on fire." You can choose to believe they are hopeless bigots and some of them are.

Others are simply products of their environment. Maybe this is how their parents raised them. Who can say with any certainty?

I'm far older than you or these posters are, but I'm pretty sure one thing that hasn't changed among young people is their need either to conform to the dominant paradigm or to rebel against it in ways that may be considered socially unacceptable by polite society.

Like sharing all your creepy racist thoughts with the rest of the world. Only now, instead of having to spray paint it on a wall, you can accomplish the same thing by going to a social media site and letting fly.

I would hate to be permanently judged by the stupid shit I thought and said when I was in my teens and 20's. Sometimes I regret the stupid shit I say in my 50's.

My patience is a finite thing, but I can find enough in me to express a little for these poor, dumb, disappointed bastards.
 

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The only reason to share that information with others would be to say in effect, "Can you believe this guy? Somebody should call him out. I won't, but somebody should."

It wasn't necessary to provide anything other than the name of those who published than their racist rants on Twitter and Facebook.
.....<snip>
I'm sure most of these individuals in question do understand calling people "niggers" and threatening to hang them or watch them burn alive are aware of how repulsive that sounds to many people, but that might be exactly the effect they were going for and why they are saying it.

I looked at that tumblr in a different light. Not saying "these individuals are asshats, go pile on them." But, rather, "Did you know that this is what some people are saying?"

The Twitter account names are there as citations, to prove the quotes are real. The collection of quotes demonstrates a pattern. Two patterns, really. First, the well-known pattern that people say things online they may not say in real life: the internet gives us that sense of anonymity and un-accountability that we don't have with F2F. Second, the (presumably surprising) pattern that enough people are openly racist that they form a measurable sector of society.

Despite all the post-election poll info about how young people voted for Obama, young people accept gay marriage, young people are more openminded and tolerant and accepting blahblahblah, it's not all young people. There are still some teens -- how many, unknown, but enough to form a Tumblr collection -- who are extremely racist, sexist, judgmental, priviliged, etc. And they know it. And they are, perhaps, proud of it.

This is something we need to know. If we don't know it, we can't work on educating those young people and letting them know their attitude is unacceptable.

So now we know.
 

Celia Cyanide

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I looked at that tumblr in a different light. Not saying "these individuals are asshats, go pile on them." But, rather, "Did you know that this is what some people are saying?"

The Twitter account names are there as citations, to prove the quotes are real. The collection of quotes demonstrates a pattern. Two patterns, really. First, the well-known pattern that people say things online they may not say in real life: the internet gives us that sense of anonymity and un-accountability that we don't have with F2F. Second, the (presumably surprising) pattern that enough people are openly racist that they form a measurable sector of society.

Despite all the post-election poll info about how young people voted for Obama, young people accept gay marriage, young people are more openminded and tolerant and accepting blahblahblah, it's not all young people. There are still some teens -- how many, unknown, but enough to form a Tumblr collection -- who are extremely racist, sexist, judgmental, priviliged, etc. And they know it. And they are, perhaps, proud of it.

This is something we need to know. If we don't know it, we can't work on educating those young people and letting them know their attitude is unacceptable.

So now we know.

I agree. This kind of thing is invisble to some people. The fact that people are saying this kind of thing, and are, apparently, unashamed to say it.