Mundania Press / PhazE / New Classics Press

Most big publishers DO have it in their contracts. Because they don't want the author undercutting them or being competition, I guess. In many cases (at bigger houses) the author DOES get a bigger discount than the bookstore - like 50% instead of the bookstore's 40%.

I don't think a single author has the ability to sell more books than a bookstore chain, for obvious reasons. How a big publisher would think an author would is beyond me. But that's what they do. Having a retail account gets around it. Really in most cases it's better, because with author copies you don't get royalties, and merchant purchased ones you do. And I don't know too many authors, from big or small presses, really into being their own bookstore on a regular basis. If might do five or six events a year where I bring books.

Christine N. said:

Most big publishers DO have it in their contracts. Because they don't want the author undercutting them or being competition, I guess. In many cases (at bigger houses) the author DOES get a bigger discount than the bookstore - like 50% instead of the bookstore's 40%.

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Ah. So the bit where it says the author-bought copies aren't for resale is to keep the author from buying a bunch of them and competing with the local bookstore. I had not thought about that before.

And the publisher cares because ...
Maybe the publishers feel it undercuts their position with the bookstores. That makes sense.

Keep in mind that many of these prohibitions came about in a time when most bookstores were smaller and an author could prove to be real competition for a bookstore in his locale. The bookstores didn't want to be undercut because competition was fierce even then. So, if the publishers didn't prohibit the authors from reselling their books, the publishers might find the afflicted bookstores retaliating by not carrying any of the publisher's other books. Lose too many of those and you might as well not be a publisher because then other bookstores would join in to protect one of their own and themselves should one of that publisher's authors live in their area.

Small presses sometimes forbid re-sales. My small press does.

Good point, Dave.
Yes, some also have the re-sale clause. Mine doesn't (at least the one doesn't; I can't recall whether the Samhain one does - but I have a feeling the answer to that is yes). I set up the retail/resell account with my publisher and we talked about it first. I know that those who have one with bigger publishers have to provide a tax ID number usually, so that's a complication.

I wouldn't say it's a prevelant thing with big house authors, but some do it.

priceless1 said:

I grit my teeth every single time a publisher says they’re giving new writers a chance. This terminology implies that small publishers are a benevolent entity whose sole raison d'être is to give new writers a platform. The truth is that large houses publish new writers all the time, so can we please erase this overused fallacy from our brains?

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When I querried my first novel back in 1988, all of the big houses that I submitted to accepted non-agented material. Twenty years later, this is not the case. I have been only able to find one major house (for my genre) that accepts queries.

Getting a reputable agent is not easy either. Nor is having an agent a sure-fire garuntee that an author will be on her way to fame and fortune. I know that good agents will work very hard on behalf of their authors, but the publisher still doesn't have to accept the ms simply because an agent recommends it.

It is tough getting a manuscript accepted. Maybe those authors who have been regularly published by a major house over the past twenty/thirty years have forgotten about that (or maybe they lead such charmed lives that they never had that problem). But for the rest of us, the slush is the least of our problems.

About nine years ago, I submitted a query to a major house and received a request for the entire ms. I was in heaven. But then two years passed without a word on the book. I sent a few nudge letters with no response. Then, when I finally worked up the courage to call, no one at the publishers had any record of the request for my ms. or any knowledge of having received it. Another year passed and then - out of the blue - I received a polite rejection letter from those same editors who had requested the ms. in the first place.

Thoroughly disheartened over the years of waiting, I decided to go in another direction and submitted to Mundania. The reasons I did so was because they had a 'highly recommended' rating by P & E, they had the backing of a NY Times best-selling author (Piers Anthony), and I had actually heard of them. Additionally, all of the short story sales I had made had been to small press magazines, so I wasn't afraid that 'small press' equaled 'out to get the author'.

I am so glad that I put in the query to Mundania. My book will be coming out in October.

Self promotion is not the exclusive domain of small presses. Having a web site, doing interviews and booksignings, and attending conventions are a part of every author's life because these things boost sales. And this is nothing more than what Mundania expects of its authors.

Probably it is the inundation of unsolicted subs that have made the large houses put up so many obstacles and barriers to new writers. But what really makes me grit my teeth is the idea that the big houses are waiting with open arms to greet new authors. They aren't. So can we please erase that fallacy from our brains?

To any new writer reading this post, I wish you the best of luck. Maybe your journey to fame and fortune will be much smoother and quicker than mine has been (and I'm not even rich and famous!!). You don't need to pick a small press like Mundania for your publisher, but I would hope that you at least consider it.

- Michelle Scott -

job said:

And the publisher cares because ...
Maybe the publishers feel it undercuts their position with the bookstores. That makes sense.

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Commercial publishers don't expect their authors to double as an unpaid sales force--not just because of the competition issue, but because authors simply don't have access to the marketing and distribution channels that publishers do. Commercial publishers welcome authors' own self-promotional efforts, but it's the publisher's job to get books into the hands of readers. By the same token, if a publisher doesn't make its books widely and easily available, authors' self-promotion efforts may not have much impact (frankly, I'm not convinced they have much impact anyway).

Children's authors, as Christine points out, are a special case, because they have a unique avenue of direct sales via school visits.

- Victoria

Doodlebug said:

It is tough getting a manuscript accepted. Maybe those authors who have been regularly published by a major house over the past twenty/thirty years have forgotten about that (or maybe they lead such charmed lives that they never had that problem).

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If only. Those of us in the midlist (which probably describes the majority of commercially published writers who frequent AW) have to prove ourselves from book to book, and if our numbers go down, so do we. An unproven new author who might be a success can be a lot more attractive to a publisher than an experienced midlister whose sales are flat or falling.

In my opinion, it's no harder to break in than it has ever been (though the avenues for doing so have changed, with agents now serving the gatekeeping function that editors once did). It's staying in that's tough.

But what really makes me grit my teeth is the idea that the big houses are waiting with open arms to greet new authors. They aren't. So can we please erase that fallacy from our brains?

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No professional publishing house waits with open arms to greet new authors, large or small. Publishing is not a democracy--it's a meritocracy. Would we really want it to be otherwise?

- Victoria

Doodlebug said:

Getting a reputable agent is not easy either. Nor is having an agent a sure-fire garuntee...It is tough getting a manuscript accepted.

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Well, yes, it is tough. No one ever said that getting published was easy. If that were the case, everyone would be writing. Competition and the publisher's belief they can sell it in large enough numbers to make money is what rules our decisions to publish someone's work.

However, with the advent of PODs, there are many books being pubbed that probably should have sat in a desk drawer a few more years. PODs have created the exact mindset you describe - "The big guys wouldn't publish me, so I decided to go with a POD." They created an air of entitlement that feeds very well into the public's impatience. They want everyting five minutes ago, and POD publishers are making some serous coin off that viewpoint. Okay, whatever. As long as the author knows exactly what kind of uphill battles they face, then go for it. My bias comes from those writers whose hearts have been broken by PODs' empty promises. If someone really believes in their work, why settle for something that will guarantee their books will never see the light of day? It doesn't make sense.

Thoroughly disheartened over the years of waiting, I decided to go in another direction and submitted to Mundania. The reasons I did so was because they had a 'highly recommended' rating by P & E, they had the backing of a NY Times best-selling author (Piers Anthony), and I had actually heard of them.

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Um, I'm still scratching my head over that one. It's probably just me, but I would never recommend a POD company because they simply can't work to the author's best interests - regardless of how noble their intents may be. The business plan simply won't allow for it. Rather, I would recommend self pubbing a book. At least you can obtain an indie distributor, store placement, reviews, and real sales. Of course, that route is extremely expensive and time consuming. But at least the author's work is given the very best care.

I wasn't afraid that 'small press' equaled 'out to get the author'.

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You're confusing small presses with PODs, and they're nothing alike. That's exactly why so many authors suffer so much disappointment. They don't understand there's a difference between the two. Small presses are in the business to sell books. Lots of them. POD companies have very little money and what little they have invariably fails to flow toward the author. Instead, authors are encouraged to buy their books at silly discounts so they can become unpaid sales forces for their own publisher. What a freaking great gig.

I am so glad that I put in the query to Mundania. My book will be coming out in October.

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Ah, so your book isn't out yet. Yes, you're in the honeymoon phase. I wish you all the luck in the world, and I hope your book sells well. However, I'd love to hear from you six months after your book is out. I've had numerous discussions with Mundania authors and authors from other POD companies at the writers seminars I speak at, and the complaints and bouts with serious depression are all the same.

Self promotion is not the exclusive domain of small presses...web site, interviews and booksignings, and attending conventions are a part of every author's life because these things boost sales. And this is nothing more than what Mundania expects of its authors.

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Don't be mistaken; Mundania and other PODs expect far more than this. What they really need you to do is buy your book because they already know they can't get them into the stores and actually set it up so shelf space is highly unlikely. Don't believe me? Try not buying your book and see how many sales you garner. I've seen many cases where PODs' titles aren't even listed in the store chains' databases. Without this, books can't be ordered - even for a book signing. It takes very little effort to get into a chains' database, but selling to the stores is costly - especially if authors are willing to buy their books. The profit margin is much higher and, yipee, no royalties go out the door either.

Also, I'm not talking about promotion. Our authors are very active in promoting their books. Most of them hire publicists, and we work very closely together, oftentimes sending out hundreds of books to TV and radio stations, newspapers, magazines. PODs don't have the money to send out hundreds of free books and incur the mailing costs.

I'm talking about marketing, which is vastly different. POD authors are forced to beg store managers for shelf space and beg for signings, forcing themselves into the position of being their own sales people. It's exhausting work and that's why POD books, on average, sell about 50 copies. Like I said, come back after your book has been out for six months.

Probably it is the inundation of unsolicted subs that have made the large houses put up so many obstacles and barriers to new writers. But what really makes me grit my teeth is the idea that the big houses are waiting with open arms to greet new authors. They aren't. So can we please erase that fallacy from our brains?

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Sorry, but you're wrong here. I'm friends with several editors at the large houses, and I know of many first time authors who have signed contracts with them. They did a very fascinating thing; they wrote great books. All publishers - little and big - have their arms wide open for great writing.

What you call obstacles and barriers is, in reality, called competition. I'm not saying the system is perfect and shit doesn't happen. It most certainly does. But anyone who insists that "they're against me because I'm new" is uninformed as to how the industry works. Publishing is an extremely tough business, and it's easy to sit back and whine about how no one's "giving me a chance." It could be that you've been overlooked and need to keep persevering, or it could be that your writing needs a lot of work and it isn't ready for prime time.

I know many authors who sucked it up and kept on submitting for years. While submitting, they wrote another book. And another. They never gave up, and they certainly didn't sell themselves short by signing with a POD because they knew it was a death knell for their work. They also were involved in writing groups who could give them honest feedback as in, "am I kidding myself, or do I have something here?" Many of them worked with indie editors to hone their developmental skills.

Maybe your journey to fame and fortune will be much smoother and quicker than mine has been

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Writing and publication isn't a speed contest or easy. It's about signing with a reputable publisher who has the ability to get books on the shelves. And, yes, this takes time. Lots of it.

You don't need to pick a small press like Mundania for your publisher, but I would hope that you at least consider it.

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Clarification: Mundania is a POD press. There's a mountain of difference between "small press" and POD. Never confuse the two. I would hope and pray that authors honor their hard work by insuring they sign with a publisher who will get their book into the marketplace and not turn them into sales people.

Absolutely. And I think sometimes it's even harder to get into a small press, because there are much fewer slots, and a lot of submissions. Granted, most of them are rejects-on-the-spot, because there's no agent vetting the stuff first, but there is still a very real competition for those few open slots.

It's not easy anywhere.

victoriastrauss said:

Commercial publishers don't expect their authors to double as an unpaid sales force--not just because of the competition issue, but because authors simply don't have access to the marketing and distribution channels that publishers do. Commercial publishers welcome authors' own self-promotional efforts, but it's the publisher's job to get books into the hands of readers. By the same token, if a publisher doesn't make its books widely and easily available, authors' self-promotion efforts may not have much impact .

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Bingo! Well said, Victoria - bless you. Our authors receive a 50% discount for their books at all times, and I don't really care what they do with them. Most buy a few to have on hand, others simply take the freebies we offer.

frankly, I'm not convinced they have much impact anyway

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It depends upon the size of the company. We're a small press, and our authors who promote definitely impact sales. First thing the genre buyers ask our sales people is, "What is the author doing to promote?" Mind you, they already know what we're doing, but they realize author participation is key. If the author has a great PR plan, those buyers always increase the presale order. I can attest that our authors who promote their books always have much higher sales and fewer returns.

priceless1 said:

However, with the advent of PODs, there are many books being pubbed that probably should have sat in a desk drawer a few more years. PODs have created the exact mindset you describe - "The big guys wouldn't publish me, so I decided to go with a POD." They created an air of entitlement that feeds very well into the public's impatience. They want everything five minutes ago, and POD publishers are making some serous coin off that viewpoint.

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I agree with this because, twenty years ago, that impatient writer was me. It is discouraging to write a lengthy work and then go through the grueling process of trying to get the thing published. Also - and this is a strange side effect of the media, I suppose, the idea promoted in a lot of movies, TV shows and books that writers daily 'do lunch' with their agents and that their editors should also be their best friends - one does think that the writing process is just that simple - write a book, get it published. What could be easier? Well, a few years of experience will put that notion to rest!

priceless1 said:

Um, I'm still scratching my head over that one. It's probably just me, but I would never recommend a POD company because they simply can't work to the author's best interests - regardless of how noble their intents may be. You're confusing small presses with PODs, and they're nothing alike. That's exactly why so many authors suffer so much disappointment. They don't understand there's a difference between the two. Small presses are in the business to sell books. Lots of them. POD companies have very little money and what little they have invariably fails to flow toward the author. Instead, authors are encouraged to buy their books at silly discounts so they can become unpaid sales forces for their own publisher. What a freaking great gig.

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Okay, now I'm confused. When did Mundania go from being a small press to a POD? Even Victoria noted that Mundania was a small press.

priceless1 said:

Ah, so your book isn't out yet. Yes, you're in the honeymoon phase. I wish you all the luck in the world, and I hope your book sells well. However, I'd love to hear from you six months after your book is out.

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I'll be sure to post. Maybe I'll be disappointed, maybe not. Only time will tell what the future holds.

priceless1 said:

I'm talking about marketing, which is vastly different. POD authors are forced to beg store managers for shelf space and beg for signings, forcing themselves into the position of being their own sales people. It's exhausting work and that's why POD books, on average, sell about 50 copies. Like I said, come back after your book has been out for six months.

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I think that the major issue here is whether or not authors are in some way duped by the publisher. In my case, I knew up front that I would be doing the lion's share of promoting, and I was okay with that. Mundania did not get me to sign a contract and then begin telling me to buy my own books. I went into this knowing what was expected of me. Perhaps you are right - possibly in another six months I will be as unhappy and discouraged with the whole thing. But again, only time will tell.

priceless1 said:

What you call obstacles and barriers is, in reality, called competition.

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Yes, of course that is true. No publisher should take on a work simply because it is offered to them. I completely agree. I am just saying that for those of us who do not have friends/family in the industry, getting even a toe in the door is next to impossible.

priceless1 said:

It could be that you've been overlooked and need to keep persevering, or it could be that your writing needs a lot of work and it isn't ready for prime time.

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I suppose it is a possibility that my writing sucks (and - btw - it was extremely gracious of you to bring that up), but as I have published a number of short stories and have an MFA, I don't think my work is that awful.

priceless1 said:

I know many authors who sucked it up and kept on submitting for years. While submitting, they wrote another book. And another.

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*Raises hand* Does twenty years count? And, yes, I have written about five other books (not to mention gotten my master's degree, raised three children, and worked at least part time during those two decades). Three of novels I wrote were truly awful and deserved the burial I gave them. One is with Mundania. The other one is being subbed.

The bottom line of what I was attempting to say in my previous post was that a small press (and I hold that Mundania is, in fact, a small press and not a POD) is a viable alternative to a large publishing house. As was mentioned earlier (on this thread, I believe) several, now famous writers (including the likes of John Grisham and Tom Clancy) began with small presses.

- Michelle Scott

Best of luck with THE DRAGONS OF HAZLETT, Michelle.

Rydi123, pass the popcorn.

priceless1 said:

Don't be mistaken; Mundania and other PODs expect far more than this. What they really need you to do is buy your book because they already know they can't get them into the stores and actually set it up so shelf space is highly unlikely.

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That's not necessarily so. Samhain and Ellora's Cave/Cerridwen Press have a lot of shelf space at stores in my area.

Of course EC/CP now has their own in house printing operation so they may not fit as an example but the bigger e-publishers like Samhain and Loose ID get shelf space and have coverart and editing that can stand up to their NY counterparts.

I think that's the distinction Lynn is making - POD's don't get their books on shelves, small presses do.

Personally I consider Mundania a small press - because I don't believe they actually print-on-demand. At least not one-offs. Do they print smaller runs? Say 100 at a time? That's not my definition of POD, the business model. I know they get listed as POD by the bookstores, which is a shame, especially with the speed at which digital books can be gotten, and if the press has discounts and a return policy comparable to big houses. Which many do, and I believe Mundania is one of them.

POD is generally used to refer to print on demand as a book producing technology--even when short runs are produced as is almost always the case with small presses. Samhain is a small press and POD and on shelves. That is the point.

veinglory said:

Samhain is a small press and POD and on shelves. That is the point.

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Yes and in my local area which is LA they have a ton of presence on the bookshelves of major stores

Thanks, Em. I was wondering exactly where the distinction lay in this case.

kiwiauthor said:

Best of luck with THE DRAGONS OF HAZLETT, Michelle.

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Thanks, Alex. I need all of the luck I can get.

Doodlebug said:

Okay, now I'm confused. When did Mundania go from being a small press to a POD? Even Victoria noted that Mundania was a small press.

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In this day and age, it's vital to differentiate what is a small commercial press (like us) or a company who uses the Print On Demand business plan. Far too many people think like you do; that there's no difference between a small fry like our company and Mundania, and I'm here to tell you we're miles apart. We have distribution, get books on the shelves and into reviewers hands. Mundania or any other POD company can't claim this. And our authors aren't sales people. They're writers.

I think that the major issue here is whether or not authors are in some way duped by the publisher. In my case, I knew up front that I would be doing the lion's share of promoting, and I was okay with that.

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Most authors are duped because many POD companies try to say that they're "traditional" publishers. In reality, there's nothing "traditional" about them. As long as you realize that you will be the sales person for your book and that your book won't be in the stores, you're ahead of the game. I just scratch my head over why anyone would want to do this.

Mundania did not get me to sign a contract and then begin telling me to buy my own books.

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Well, no, that wouldn't be very smart, would it? Instead, they make it nearly impossible for your book to be sold in bookstores. When the author sees that all traditional methods of selling their book are closed to them, they do the only option that's left - buy the books and become their own distributor.

You will more than likely receive emails that offer discounts to purchase your book. It's wrapped up in a very pretty bow that states they're "only trying to help you out in case you want books for yourself." Please. If this were truly the case, then why have a tiered discount plan that's dependent upon the higher number of books being bought in order to obtain the largest discount? Our authors receive a 50% discount on their books if they want 1 or 100 because I don't care if they buy their books. I don't depend on their cash to remain afloat because my distributor is selling far more than what they're buying.

I'm not necessarily saying that PODs are vile creatures whose intents are strictly evil. Some have their hearts in the right place. But the truth is that the POD paradigm will never, ever benefit the author. Being a nice guy won't make that happen. A publisher must have viable business plan that includes distribution and all the other trimmings.

I went into this knowing what was expected of me.

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Ah, if I had a dime for every time I've heard this, I'd own Hawaii. Everyone always says this. The truth is that you can never know what you're getting into until you get your feet wet. You're busy honeymooning right now. Your editors are lovely people, I'm sure, and the cover designer is great. Emails right now are fun and positive, and everyone is gung ho. I'd be curious to know what those emails are going to look like when you ask your publisher why B&N refuses to order your book, and why isn't it listed in their database. How nice will the responses be when you ask why PW or Booklist won't review your book? A few months of schlepping your book to anyone with a heartbeat is going to take its toll - as it does in nearly every case. Only then will the POD author sit back and say that there was no way they could have foreseen this tough road.

Nearly every POD author I've talked to says believes their experiences will be different. You say you've been in the business for twenty years. I respectfully submit that you've never gone the POD route and you're more than likely in for a big shock and a lot of heartache. I truly hope the opposite is true and that you are the exception. But I've been banging around for a while now, and I've heard enough horror stories to fill a library.

I am just saying that for those of us who do not have friends/family in the industry, getting even a toe in the door is next to impossible.

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Why is it that you perpetuate this belief that one must have inside connections in order to be published by a legit publisher and that your only option is to settle for a POD? I will continue to repeat myself because it's vital that all writers know this; there are many, many first time authors who have no connections to the business other than they wrote a book commercial publishers felt would sell well.

I suppose it is a possibility that my writing sucks (and - btw - it was extremely gracious of you to bring that up), but as I have published a number of short stories and have an MFA, I don't think my work is that awful.

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Please. I never said your writing sucked. I've never even read your work, so let's not go there. I quote:

But what really makes me grit my teeth is the idea that the big houses are waiting with open arms to greet new authors. They aren't. So can we please erase that fallacy from our brains?

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To which I rhetorically asked if you'd thrown in the towel too quickly or needed to review the quality of your work. This is hardly an inappropriate question. Many of us have to sit back and wonder if our work is good enough for publication. Possessing an MFA doesn't grant one a free pass to the big time. Nor does it guarantee that the writer is any good (not casting aspersions here) Earning an MFA is a great accomplishment, to be sure, but I've passed on many works that were penned by MFAs.

...a small press (and I hold that Mundania is, in fact, a small press and not a POD) is a viable alternative to a large publishing house.

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Obviously I'm a huge fan of the small commercial press. I am one. But don't kid yourself, Mundania is a POD company and not a small commercial press. Heck they admit this themselves, so why is this a tough notion for you to swallow? Anyway, I'll leave you to it. Best of luck to you and your writing endeavors.

Christine N. said:

Personally I consider Mundania a small press - because I don't believe they actually print-on-demand.

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Christine, you're confusing the technology and the business model. Somewhere in this thread, Dan admitted that they only print where there's demand using digital technology because they couldn't afford to do print runs. A hundred books is not a print run. It's an hors d'oeuvre. Their business plan is POD business model, meaning that it's all the other stuff I've yammered on about in other posts. They are listed as POD in all the databases to inform anyone who wants to order their books that they probably have very little in stock and that their business isn't run on the same scale as a commercial press.

I can't help but think that priceless1 has made several over-generalizations that don't actually apply to Mundania Press, but I don't have enough specific knowledge about Mundania Press to point out the differences in an intelligent way. Is there anyone else here who has the proper data to do a good job of it?

I just think that, when I read priceless1's recent posts here, I'm reminded of my own experience with Authorhouse (a bad experience) rather than the types of things I've heard from Mundania Press authors.

It has always been my impression that legitimate low-end small presses that rely on digital printing are in a completely different category than vanity press POD outfits like Authorhouse. Sure, digital printing micro-presses are in a different category than small presses that use print runs in the thousands, which are again in a different category than the medium-sized and large publishers. But, it still seems somehow unfair to lump all POD together, since there are a handful of legitimate POD publishers.

Am I reading priceless1's words wrongly? Is priceless1 actually saying that there is no essential difference between Mundania Press and author mills like Publish America?

... I got a similar impression. Don't get me wrong, I've enjoyed being educated, and priceless1 you have significantly added to that experience. But is there just a little industrial rivalry going on here, aka bag the opposition?

Trust me--an exclusively digitally-based publisher, whatever its business philosophy, is not the competitor of a publisher that does a print run of 10,000 and then goes back to press for more.

- Victoria