What truly ANNOYS you in books? And not in a good way.

WhitePawn said:

1. Protagonists with anger management issues (females in urban fantasy are often guilty of this). Flaws are good. Flaws that make the protag act like a hysterical female are not good. "I know I shouldn't go in that dark and dangerous place alone, but I'm just so emotional right now!" Ugh.Fortunately with those I don't get past the blurb, most of the time. So many seem so ... samey.

2. Fantasy that isn't fantasy. It's some rushed POS that I send back by page 100. Worse, it tricked me with a really solid opening chapter or two. (I liked the Wheel of "Over"Time and have read the entire series twice. Nynaeve & Matt ftw.)

3. Lack of depth. Dune series (initially), Wheel of Time (entire), Martin's GoT, The Talisman & Dark Tower books, The NeverEnding Story are all nuanced and contain multiple plots. And Pratchett, for the humor side of nuanced. Someone else on these forums made a steak vs. jerky analogy. I feel like too many recent books are of the jerky variety. If I want jerky, then I'll watch TV. Books should be better.

I gotta say, I'm frustrated with the local library. I've sent back the last 8-12 fantasy books I've tried because they bored me. All I can think is who green-lit this garbage? Did they even read it?

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I tried Wheel of Time but couldn't get into it. Worth another try, you think?

I'll admit I didn't read all 14 pages of this thread, so I'm sure some of these will be repeats. With that said, the things that annoy the crap out of me are (in no particular order):

1. When characters magically "sense" things without any type of concrete evidence to back up their vibe. For example, the "I just knew intuitively, at that moment, that I had to connect more with that person" thing or the "I knew that something wasn't right about the look deep in their eyes." If there's no evidence to cause someone to get said magic vibe, but they just know everything like a psychic, it looks like a really poorly done plot device, and it also takes away all the suspense because the MC will just know whatever they need to know. This usually rears its head in cheesy paranormal romance novels.

2. When people choose romance over EVERYTHING, even something like the chance to literally save the world, and this is portrayed as glorified or the proper thing to do (The "His Dark Materials" trilogy by Philip Pullman did the exact opposite of this, and was one of the most profound plot twists I've read)

3. When people magically figure out shit the second before they are about to die. Haven't quite nailed down that skill yet? Oh, the killer is coming, and boom, they master it two seconds before it's too late. See #1. This usually rears its head in bad YA high fantasy.

4. Stupid, cheesy dialogue and lame stereotypes that sound more like an out-of-touch perception than of the reality of what "type" is truly like (this is usually seen in YA novels written by people who are out of touch with YA)

My big YA pet peeve is people meeting their TRUE LOVE in high school. Yes, it happens, but not very often these days. You think that your high school love is THE ONE, but a novel should offer some perspective on the fact that it probably isn't. John Green is good at walking that line, but many lesser authors are not.

If I listed off my pet peeves about YA, I'd fill this thread. I think it's the sector of literature that is the most trendy. Twilight is huge? How many different ways can we have a girl fall in love with a werewolf/ vampire/ zombie? Hunger Games is successful? Everyone write a post-apocalyptic novel. The Fault in our Stars is successful? Up pop the books with a gravely ill hero or heroine. Trend towards quirky/nerdy protagonists? Everyone has 'em now. I read YA out of some deep personal masochism. Can't remember the last one I thought was amazing. (Open to suggestions, though, if you have one)

I also have an irrational pet peeve about authors who give all their characters really bizarre, pretentious sounding names. Not in fantasy novels, but stories that take place in the regular old world. Caitlin Kiernan is particularly guilty of this.

Wilde_at_heart said:

I tried Wheel of Time but couldn't get into it. Worth another try, you think?

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IMO, no. But that's just me. I thought it was derivative starting out, got hugely better in books three through seven, but then began to collapse under the weight of the ever-increasing number of POV characters (and many of them unimportant and uninteresting) (the same thing is starting to happen with the GRRM books, unfortunately). Book eight was a slog. Book nine was worse so I didn't finish it and never went back. I don't know whether Brandon Sanderson was able to rescue it in the last couple volumes. Some seem to think he did.

BethS said:

IMO, no. But that's just me. I thought it was derivative starting out, got hugely better in books three through seven, but then began to collapse under the weight of the ever-increasing number of POV characters (and many of them unimportant and uninteresting) (the same thing is starting to happen with the GRRM books, unfortunately). Book eight was a slog. Book nine was worse so I didn't finish it and never went back. I don't know whether Brandon Sanderson was able to rescue it in the last couple volumes. Some seem to think he did.

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That was definitely my thought on it too, though I do love the series and finished it. The problem that appeared in the series was Jordan wanted to wrap the series up but realized he couldn't simply start Tarmon Gaidon without wrapping up all the subplots that sprang up throughout the series.

Books 8, 9, and 10 were very slow for this reason and certainly didn't have the story depth of books 3-7. I call it Matrix syndrome, where the characters are in the same position (relatively) at the end of the book as they were at the beginning (like the second one). Once book 11 came out the pace really started picking up again and books 12, 13, and 14 were fantastic in my opinion and a perfect end for the series.

And I agree with GRRM too. Unfortunately, the longer series go on, the more little details spring up and if those aren't pruned quickly they turn into massive blackberry bushes you have to hack apart to finish the series, leading to books where nothing is happening. Hopefully, GRRM doesn't have a similar problem since he already is rediculously slow to bring books out.

I'm getting very tired of seeing so much...filler in novels where nothing happens in the novel, or much of it and it would be a better, tighter read if about half the book were cut.

BethS said:

IMO, no. But that's just me. I thought it was derivative starting out, got hugely better in books three through seven, but then began to collapse under the weight of the ever-increasing number of POV characters (and many of them unimportant and uninteresting) (the same thing is starting to happen with the GRRM books, unfortunately). Book eight was a slog. Book nine was worse so I didn't finish it and never went back. I don't know whether Brandon Sanderson was able to rescue it in the last couple volumes. Some seem to think he did.

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I also second (third?) your opinion on WoT, Beth. I stopped reading after Book 8, partially because I was then waiting (forever) for Book 9 to come out and by the time it did I had lost track of all the blasted little details necessary to figuring out the evil character identities, and partially because Book 8 was a drag to get through. If I ever have huge chunks of time available, I might consider going back and having another go at the series, but...

I know large fantasy series are a beast to write, since I'm mired in one myself right now. So i do have some sympathy for Martin and others taking what seems to be their sweet time. It's hard work when you have all that detail and so many characters to kill off in a reasonable fashion. I tend to complain about waiting less these days after that little epiphany. Or I tell myself that. I might still grumble. Just not as vociferously.

tiddlywinks said:

I also second (third?) your opinion on WoT, Beth. I stopped reading after Book 8, partially because I was then waiting (forever) for Book 9 to come out and by the time it did I had lost track of all the blasted little details necessary to figuring out the evil character identities, and partially because Book 8 was a drag to get through. If I ever have huge chunks of time available, I might consider going back and having another go at the series, but...

I know large fantasy series are a beast to write, since I'm mired in one myself right now. So i do have some sympathy for Martin and others taking what seems to be their sweet time. It's hard work when you have all that detail and so many characters to kill off in a reasonable fashion. I tend to complain about waiting less these days after that little epiphany. Or I tell myself that. I might still grumble. Just not as vociferously.

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It takes time to write large, complex novels. Add to that the fact that some authors are just slow writers. (Which I can unfortunately relate to.)

But losing control of the story by introducing too many POV characters and subplots is entirely preventable. And if it manages to happen anyway, the cure is simple: kill them off. Should be easy for GRRM.

What truly annoys me in books and not in a good way is when my computer breaks down without giving me a chance to note my passwords for twitter and facebook and all my online banking.

No, wait - that's not books, that's life. Sorry - derail.

mccardey said:

What truly annoys me in books and not in a good way

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Is there a good way to be annoyed? I've been wondering that ever since I first saw the thread title.

Unnecessary Confusion

It's easy for an author to bring a reader into a room and parcel out enough information to confuse him/her without giving out so much that the reader actually knows what's going on. Confusion can be a form of tension but too often it's just a cheap way of creating tension where there is none otherwise. At is worst a writer is going, I know what's going on but you don't. Nyah Nyah. At its very worst an author says something like, Protag finally figured out why Love Interest betrayed him, but the reader is going to have to wade through twenty pages to find out what that is. There's a thin line between the subtleties of genuine tension and cheap manipulation.

parsewell said:

It's easy for an author to bring a reader into a room and parcel out enough information to confuse him/her without giving out so much that the reader actually knows what's going on. Confusion can be a form of tension but too often it's just a cheap way of creating tension where there is none otherwise. At is worst a writer is going, I know what's going on but you don't. Nyah Nyah. At its very worst an author says something like, Protag finally figured out why Love Interest betrayed him, but the reader is going to have to wade through twenty pages to find out what that is. There's a thin line between the subtleties of genuine tension and cheap manipulation.

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Vagueness rather than mystery.

I don't see this so often in published books, but it seems to come up frequently in SYW and other critique forums. It once even prompted me to create a thread - one of my peeves is when someone doesn't name their characters straight off. It's 'him' or 'the girl' until about six paragraphs in.

Well, insta-love, non-realistic characters, poor world, plot holes, non-original plot idea, bad style.

Wilde_at_heart said:

one of my peeves is when someone doesn't name their characters straight off. It's 'him' or 'the girl' until about six paragraphs in.

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Ha, my MC doesn't get a name til almost 5000 words in. To be fair, he's had his memory and sanity taken from him and is just now starting to get some sort of mind back.



He says to tell you that if this is my idea of 'fair', he wants a different author.

parsewell said:

It's easy for an author to bring a reader into a room and parcel out enough information to confuse him/her without giving out so much that the reader actually knows what's going on. Confusion can be a form of tension but too often it's just a cheap way of creating tension where there is none otherwise. At is worst a writer is going, I know what's going on but you don't. Nyah Nyah. At its very worst an author says something like, Protag finally figured out why Love Interest betrayed him, but the reader is going to have to wade through twenty pages to find out what that is. There's a thin line between the subtleties of genuine tension and cheap manipulation.

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I gave up about a third of the way into Dan Brown's DaVinci Code because of this. The protagonists would figure out some new, amazing piece of the puzzle, but they never bothered to inform the reader until some time well into the next chapter when it was too late for understanding the answer to be any fun. Drove me crazy.

BethS said:

It takes time to write large, complex novels. Add to that the fact that some authors are just slow writers. (Which I can unfortunately relate to.)

But losing control of the story by introducing too many POV characters and subplots is entirely preventable. And if it manages to happen anyway, the cure is simple: kill them off. Should be easy for GRRM.

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Ha! Good point. That's why a very good detailed plot map is necessary. And listening when the betas start asking why the subplot is in there other than you enjoy the subject. Unless you're Terry Pratchett and it makes for a good footnote to nowhere. Then it's acceptable. And only then.

I'm making note of your cure for my own files. #bethism - too many characters? Kill em off!

*rubs hands gleefully*

In all seriousness though, that leads to another pet peeve - not keeping proper track of plotlines in a series and contradicting things in a later book. Drives me batty. Especially since I live for the details and mysteries. It derails my interest in a series when the author can't even keep things straight.

When the setup takes too long. Yes, there's a need to get the reader familiar with the characters, but you can do that in the midst of the interesting part of the story.

tiddlywinks said:

Ha! Good point. That's why a very good detailed plot map is necessary.

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Not obligatory, unless you're the sort of writer who plans/outlines in advance. But for organic writers, it's a matter of resisting the temptation to add "just one more" POV. You know, self-discipline.

In all seriousness though, that leads to another pet peeve - not keeping proper track of plotlines in a series and contradicting things in a later book. Drives me batty. Especially since I live for the details and mysteries. It derails my interest in a series when the author can't even keep things straight.

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Agreed. That's when having legions of fans keep track of those details for you comes in handy. I've heard that's what GRRM uses when he can't remember something.

For us lesser mortals, nothing wrong with keeping a file of notes of who did what to whom when and why, and what they were carrying on their person when they did it. Sort of a plot & character map after the fact.

BethS said:

For us lesser mortals, nothing wrong with keeping a file of notes of who did what to whom when and why, and what they were carrying on their person when they did it. Sort of a plot & character map after the fact.

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This is why I've generated an after-the-fact timeline... mostly to make sure I don't have someone in two places at once or going back in time, since there's a fair amount of "Meanwhile, back at the planet..." and at one point, to help with getting a bunch of separately-written pieces crammed into the correct places.

Calliea said:

Annoyance can be a great driving force

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"Nai the Hever will be annoyed, but evidently you do not care."

The observation in some small degree vitalized Jubal’s morale.
"I am annoyed with Nai the Hever."

“Well, we shall see whose annoyance proves the more pungent."

Calliea said:

Well, it's a necroed thread from January, so I can only guess what I was thinking when I made this thread, but I think I meant something like, there are sometimes REALLY annoying characters that you want to slap, kick, bite, burn with fire, eat, then spit out, but without them, there would be nothing really driving you forth to read. They make you count on the protagonist to kick their annoying ass!

Annoyance can be a great driving force

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Ah. Yes.

For those bothered by the prevalence of blue or green eyes in fictional characters, here is an article on how blue eyes are now the most common eye colour in the UK:

All eyes in the country were once brown, but they are now 48 per cent blue, 30 per cent green and 22 per cent brown.

So pet peeve or not, this is the way the worm is turning, guys

Kallithrix said:

For those bothered by the prevalence of blue or green eyes in fictional characters, here is an article on how blue eyes are now the most common eye colour in the UK:

All eyes in the country were once brown, but they are now 48 per cent blue, 30 per cent green and 22 per cent brown.

So pet peeve or not, this is the way the worm is turning, guys

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Sure in the UK. In stuff set in other parts of the world where it isn't common, the idea that so many characters are blue eyed is disconcerting.

Lillith1991 said:

Sure in the UK. In stuff set in other parts of the world where it isn't common, the idea that so many characters are blue eyed is disconcerting.

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I just ignore all literature written or set in other parts of the world. I find that tends to weed out the crap anyway