immigration Reform via Executive Order

All those agricultural business which Cornflake's link covers do pay at least minimum wage. In Georgia (referenced in my earlier link,) those agricultural jobs were to be filled by parolees; the problem was not that the jobs didn't pay enough, but that there were not enough parolees to cover the necessary work. Most hotels are legal businesses who fill out the proper paperwork with the IRS, and therefore cannot pay below minimum wage (although there are special laws regarding hotels, especially in things like overtime.) The guy from the NYT article I linked on the previous page was also getting paid minimum wage, as are other workers in his position.

I can't find a specific link, but in my experience, most of these jobs are paying right at minimum wage.

ETA: I did find a link, actually.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/38168029/ns/business-careers/t/lowest-paying-jobs-america/#.VG5E2vnF8rk

Often cited as the job Americans don’t want, farm workers make $9.51 an hour, and most of the work is seasonal, strenuous and dangerous. About seven in 10 agricultural workers are born outside of the United States.

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cornflake said:

Sorry, again, I don't see where you're getting that it's illegal immigrants that are having this impact. Immigrant is not illegal immigrant, and Latino/Spanish-speaking is necessarily neither.

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I never said illegal immigrants are having this impact. (Although I believe they contribute to some aspects of it) I said that if President Obama gives legal status to the millions of illegals currently here, then that would add quite a burden to our already overburdened Medicaid in those states which support the largest numbers of immigrants.

However, allowing those immigrants to work here legally would also raise tax revenues significantly across the US. Some of that revenue could be sent to the areas that bear the majority of the financial burden, bailing them out, while the rest of it was simply a net plus.

Monkey said:

However, allowing those immigrants to work here legally would also raise tax revenues significantly across the US.

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Raise tax revenues significantly? I don't think so. I question whether revenues would be raised at all, let alone significantly.

Monkey said:

If it had become a reasonable and rational process, we'd have a lot fewer illegals.



I live in deep South Texas, near the US/Mexico border. Illegals pass through my area regularly. I leave out water.

It's clear I'm not one of the constituents you mention. But you know what? When I talk to those who are, that intense desire to fortify our border is often coupled with some extremely ugly sentiments, and is very rarely put forth alongside a desire to have a "reasonable and rational" path to citizenship. I tend to cut ties with those people when I'm not related to them.

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What in the world makes you think that anything will really get done this time? Nothing has changed, except the names of the people doing all the shouting.

I'm sorry that you hear ugly statements. Perhaps we're a little less volatile here? Or don't have the pressure from so many of the unsavory characters that are crossing into the states? It's all well and good to talk about the people that are fleeing poverty and crime in their homelands, but it's not okay to throw open the door.

Obviously, there are several with other agendas willing to walk in that open door. The crime statistics from border states, directly attributable to undocumented aliens, are truly concerning to me.

Finally, I really love the comments that were left on the White House Facebook page by those happy over the impending announcement: F**k all you white people!!

Sure, anytime. You're welcome. Good luck. (With that attitude you're going to need it.)

The speech made me cry. I hope I don't feel sucker-punched next week.
Granted, I veer toward precipitation every bit as much as I do barometric flux - still I thought it sounded like a good plan - even if it just results in the 450 writing up their own bill and presenting it as something to act on.

Keyword: Act.

Thanks O, for doing so!!!

I thought Obama gave a strong, well-reasoned speech (of the kind that is rare today), and that everything he said he would do should be legal and fall well within his authority to set enforcement priorities.

If the Republicans disagree that it is legal, they should take him to court. (They probably won't, though, because they will likely lose.)

If the Republicans disagree with the policy, then they should pass a bill that does what they want.

If they don't know what they want, they should just shut up about it and work on something else until 2016.

Reason has coverage here, as well as a link to the full speech.

To sum it up: "any night the government decides to stop ruining people's lives for not obeying absurd laws is a good night for libertarians."

Synonym said:

Finally, I really love the comments that were left on the White House Facebook page by those happy over the impending announcement: F**k all you white people!!

Sure, anytime. You're welcome. Good luck. (With that attitude you're going to need it.)

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Kinda taking things personally, aren't you? Stupid shit gets posted in comments all the time.

Don said:

Reason has coverage here, as well as a link to the full speech.

To sum it up: "any night the government decides to stop ruining people's lives for not obeying absurd laws is a good night for libertarians."

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Thanks for summing it up. Saved me from having to waste time reading it.

Posted by Rand Paul
President Obama is not above the law and has no right to issue executive amnesty.

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http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/20/polit...obama-immigration-speech/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Posted by James Madison
he shall have Power to Grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.

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http://www.usconstitution.net/xconst_A2Sec2.html

Amnesty isn't really what Obama did, but you have to wonder if Paul has read the damn Constitution, if he's making an idiotic statement like that. The President has had that power since George Washington was inaugurated.

I don't know about the Constitutionality of any specific action or policy, since there really hasn't been one yet. And the presumptive nature of this bothers me a great deal.

That said, I think I agree with Obama's plans, pretty much across the board.

It could just as easily be stated the "political atmosphere makes an executive decision" the best remaining choice.

CrastersBabies said:

And I think this political atmosphere makes an executive decision even more volatile. If Obama has really "heard America" as he claimed, I'm not sure why he is insisting on adding gasoline to the fire here.

As much as I'd love to say, "Get it done, no matter what" (because I'm a huge supporter of immigration reform), I'm uncomfortable with this. Even if Obama pushes through a line-by-line perfect plan, there is an extremely high chance that Republicans will:

1. take America hostage again to protest the action (government shutdown)
2. make it holy grail #2 (after the ACA) to get it repealed.

I'm not okay with that. Sometimes, retreating and finding a more diplomatic solution is what's best for the country. As utterly craptastic as that is to say.

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The executive order also does a couple of other things:

1) It shifts the bargaining power for a compromise to Obama and comprehensive immigration reform. The Republicans have to produce a palatable alternative now, or live with this.

2) If the Republicans try to fight this too hard, it's probably going to be a very long time before they have any chance of winning over the Latino vote. Which may well lock them out of the White House in 2016.

Well, that's the hope anyway. It won't do those things as a matter of course.

robeiae said:

Raise tax revenues significantly? I don't think so. I question whether revenues would be raised at all, let alone significantly.

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It would depend on how most illegals get paid for working, imho. Here we have a lot of completely legal identities illegally acquired, so those jobs do have normal paychecks with deductions, etc. I'm sure we have all kinds, though.

In any case, if you have a situation where people are working and getting paid under the table, then there are no taxes paid. Or you'll see employers lie about the number of hours worked when hiring illegals, therefore fewer taxes paid in.

Let's say the strain on the system's resources is already fixed, because hospitals have to treat undocumented folks, etc. But now you'd also have more taxes paid, because the folks are now working legally in the country and would have avenues of redress for labor problems.

That would bring in more tax revenue, although I don't know if it's enough to cover the social programs that include all of the immigrants. It's still better than unscrupulous employers pocketing the tax money, imho.

I love the sound of Republicans screaming like stuck pigs when they get called out for their intransigence and obstruction and the president did just that in his speech.

...I worked with Congress on a comprehensive fix. And last year 68 Democrats, Republicans, and independents came together to pass a bipartisan bill in the Senate. It wasn’t perfect. It was a compromise. But it reflected common sense. It would have doubled the number of Border Patrol agents, while giving undocumented immigrants a pathway to citizenship, if they paid a fine, started paying their taxes and went to the back of the line. And independent experts said that it would help grow our economy and shrink our deficits.

Had the House of Representatives allowed that kind of bill a simple yes or no vote, it would have passed with support from both parties. And today it would be the law. But for a year and a half now Republican leaders in the House have refused to allow that simple vote. Now I continue to believe that the best way to solve this problem is by working together to pass that kind of common sense law. But until that happens, there are actions I have the legal authority to take as president, the same kinds of actions taken by Democratic and Republican presidents before me, that will help make our immigration system more fair and more just.

The actions I’m taken are not only lawful, they’re the kinds of actions taken by every single Republican president and every single Democratic president for the past half century.

And to those members of Congress who question my authority to make our immigration system work better or question the wisdom of me acting where Congress has failed, I have one answer:

Pass a bill.
​

I want to work with both parties to pass a more permanent legislative solution. And the day I sign that bill into law, the actions I take will no longer be necessary.

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If only Obama had found his spine a few weeks earlier, there might be fewer Republicans on their way to Washington next year hell-bent on making his life as miserable as possible.

backslashbaby said:

It would depend on how most illegals get paid for working, imho. Here we have a lot of completely legal identities illegally acquired, so those jobs do have normal paychecks with deductions, etc. I'm sure we have all kinds, though.

In any case, if you have a situation where people are working and getting paid under the table, then there are no taxes paid. Or you'll see employers lie about the number of hours worked when hiring illegals, therefore fewer taxes paid in.

Let's say the strain on the system's resources is already fixed, because hospitals have to treat undocumented folks, etc. But now you'd also have more taxes paid, because the folks are now working legally in the country and would have avenues of redress for labor problems.

That would bring in more tax revenue, although I don't know if it's enough to cover the social programs that include all of the immigrants. It's still better than unscrupulous employers pocketing the tax money, imho.

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Right. All that's true.

Also, it depends on whether one is looking at just Federal or both Federal and State taxes. For a State like Florida--which has no state income tax--it really doesn't matter, with regard to revenue.

Then there is the issue of what exactly formerly illegal workers will do. Some might opt for different jobs, because some actually have skill sets they simply can't use. But that might actually mean replacement, which won't bring in more revenue in the least (though we are talking limited numbers here).

Some businesses that thrived on illegal workers might simply go belly-up in the short term. Who knows?

And there will be more people using services.

The point is, all in all tax revenues may not go up. They may, but it's unlikely they'll go up "significantly."

But as you say, that doesn't matter. Because it would still be better than what is going on now. What's right is right.

clintl said:

The executive order also does a couple of other things:1) It shifts the bargaining power for a compromise to Obama and comprehensive immigration reform. The Republicans have to produce a palatable alternative now, or live with it.

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That certainly makes perfect sense, but unfortunately I don't believe it's true.

The GOP is still trying to repeal the affordable care act, and in almost every Republican controlled state are doing the absolute best to make sure that it does not work. There is already a lawsuit instituted to prevent the federal government from providing subsidies to poor residents of the states who haven't opted into the exchanges.eef

It's been a pretty effective tactic, actually. Obamacare is a system with some serious flaws. It certainly could be improved and made to work much better simply with some cooperation and desire to see it succeed.

But determined opposition has helped to cripple its effectiveness. The holy grail for the Republicans is not to replace it with some other system that works better, but simply to be able to hold it up as an example of democratic failure, and they're doing their best to make sure that it is.

What started out as a disagreement in policy has morphed into an obsession, driven partly by sheer hatred of Obama and everything he stands for. The real world consequences of any action Obama takes have become increasingly irrelevant.

I think the same thing is going to happen with immigration. The only immigration bill a Republican Congress will pass will be one that focuses solely on increased border security and deportation. If that bill is vetoed by Obama, it will be held up as another example of how Obama won't compromise or except anything except his own way.

I think they've given up on the Hispanic vote. I think they're doubling down on playing to their base and getting out the vote – and why shouldn't they? It certainly worked in these last elections.

Remember how the Republicans took the blame for the government shutdown? All the pundits are saying they won't want to risk that again, but it made no difference in the elections and hardly anyone even remembers it.

I would not at all be surprised to see it happen again. Opposing Obama and the Democrats on immigration reform will become a knee-jerk reaction for those on the right, and those Republicans who actually favor it will not have the power to stand up to the rest of the party.

Will it hurt the Republican image? Sure. Will that transfer into losing elections or seats in the house or senate? I don't think so, and that's the only important thing.

Williebee said:

It could just as easily be stated the "political atmosphere makes an executive decision" the best remaining choice.

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Very true. But I don't see a way out. The Republicans have proven utterly incapable of compromising or stepping one foot toward fixing this poisoned atmosphere.

rugcat said:

What started out as a disagreement in policy has morphed into an obsession, driven partly by sheer hatred of Obama and everything he stands for. The real world consequences of any action Obama takes have become increasingly irrelevant.

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This is why I have next to no faith in the republicans to make decisions about my future and my nation. I don't believe them when they say they'll take our nation to a better place. I don't believe them at all.

Crastersbabies said:

Sometimes, retreating and finding a more diplomatic solution is what's best for the country. As utterly craptastic as that is to say.

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The Republicans in congress have spent six years stonewalling the shit out of everything Obama has tried to do without offering any reasonable alternatives of their own. Diplomacy, at this point, ain't going to happen because the R's won't let it.

This time, he had to DO SOMETHING for the good of the country, not just retreat.

Again.

Kaiser-Kun said:

I just hope they simplify the incredibly slow and expensive legal immigration process so the people willing to follow the rules can do so and their opposers can show the true face behind their complaints.

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I like that. It is incredibly involved, and takes years. Those who jump through all of the hoops have to wait, and wait.
There are children of immigrants who know nothing else but America, but are penalized, now far less, in the process of trying to live the dream they have been schooled in and taught about their every year in school.


The reforms were needed.

I am a Republican.

C.bronco said:

The reforms were needed.

I am a Republican.

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I'm honestly beginning to wonder if any of the people on Congress with the little r after their name are Republican, though...

I just got to the Greencard stage this year, from first stepping onto US soil it took 16 years and just over $5000 for a fully employed, no criminal record individual from an allied nation in a specialist field that very few Americans are qualified in. So, no, the legal approach not a simple process and is occasionally wildly irrational.

Many industries in the IS that depend on illegals relate to marginal and seasonal jobs where non-nationals are the norm all over the world. Did you know that most sheep in Iceland are slaughtered by New Zealanders? It's an 8 week season and easier to fly them in than train people for a job they are not going to be doing most of the year. Meanwhile in New Zealand most berries are picked by Fijians and most shellfish collected by Chinese people. In the US crop picking faces a similar dilemma. If you have a short season with low wages no sane national who could get a year round job is going to be interested.

Veinglory,

Just a question, since I've seen so many claim that amnesty for illegal immigrants is "a slap in the face" to those who went through the massive amounts of work and money to come here legally...

As one of those who went through all the proper hoops, are you offended by Obama's executive order?