The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

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AnneMarble

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XThe NavigatorX said:
Pixel, I pretty much agree with everything you say.

I've read (and loved) plenty of Gaimon stuff, but I haven't had the chance to read Stardust. There are plenty of YA books out there that border on inappropriate or are really meant for a slightly older age. That's not really the issue here.

The issue I have is with the whole bait and switch scenario. It seems the first story is basically a retelling of The Brave Little Toaster. That story is aimed at the under eight crowd. The second story is most definitely for older teens, at the youngest.

Yes, I think that's exactly the problem. It's like a bookstore bundling up a copy of "Tales of a Fourth Grade Nothing" (a children's novel) and "Forever" (definitely for teens!) because they're both by Judy Blume. :Wha: Can you imagine the protest lines?! Or for that matter, bundling up C. S. Lewis' "The Chronicles of Narnia" with "The Garden" by Elsie V. Aidinoff, a controversial recent YA novel that's a revisionist version of the Garden of Eden. Just because they're both for young people doesn't mean they're for the same young people.

XThe NavigatorX said:
3) The third issue is with PA authors giving each other glowing reviews. I find it hard to swallow the PA authors who've put reviews up on Amazon for this book read the entire thing.

I think if they had, surely there would have been some kind of thread, though a short-lived one. Then again, sometimes people do post about what to do if they didn't like a book by a PA author, and people tell them not to say anything.
 
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victoriastrauss

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I don't like removing posts, but I also don't like trolls. I've removed the text of the most recent post from pike bishop, and will remove the text of any future messages from this being, whoever he/she/it may be.

The IP addresses, not to mention the distinctive writing...er...style, indicate that these posts are all coming from the same source.

- Victoria
 

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akaa1a said:
Well Sher2,

Look at it this way, PA has a captive income stream with 200 authors rowin' the boat. I think it's odd that they are letting an author control the purse strings, or am I reading this all wrong.
Bet this contract will be hard to extract themselves from when the boat springs a leak!
:TheWave: 7 out of 200 happy authors!
Plus you know that all 200 hundred, okay, maybe 175, will buy copies of the book, as well as their family and friends (yeah look, so and so is published again:Cheer: ). I don't think PA will care about one author controling the funds. Why? They don't have to worry about breaking down the amount each will get. You know, sending out five cent checks to 200 authors will be more trouble than it's worth. After all stamps and envelopes will be about fifty cents so PA will be in the hole, and lords no, you know PA don't want to start out in no hole. M.O.O.N that spells PA not wanting to start off in no hole, yes sir.:Huh:

I'm sure they made sure something like this was in place before they said okay. They now are asured of getting large orders of the book at once, which means more money for them at one time. And I'm sure when tax time comes PA will probaly send all of the W2's to the guy as well:crazy::scared: , you know, since he takes care of the money.

Now, this can be hazardous to their healths.:box: What if people don't think they are getting what they deserve?:guns: What if PA doesn't send the right amount of royalties (not likely to happen right?:Wha: :roll: ). Then they will blame him, he will turn around and blame PA and in return PA will most likely do to him what they did to Dee, not send a royalty check (teach him to talk that way to me. Who does he think he is?:Hammer: Doesn't he know I'm the all knowing AuthorSupport? :crazy: Stupid people.:Headbang: )

I will like to se how this turns out. In the end I can see only one person getting hurt. Maybe we should set out a reserved seat for JCK now?
 
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Kevin Yarbrough

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bikrpreacher said:
It will be a regular contract, John will be the author. It'll just be like all other contracts of PA. He doesn't really even have to talk to anyone about royalties, accept that this came up once or twice when he was getting it all ready. He's just saying this so it won't come up again. The author he wants to help is the one doing the book club thing, LindaP or something.
What book club thing?
 

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KellyS. said:
I don't want to even know anything about it.
Question from a different post: If every author gets the front and back of a page, doesn't that make the page total closer to 400 pages?

Because front and back of one page is still just one page apiece :)
 

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Thank you, Victoria, for intervening.

Moondancer said:
IQs have a range on a bell curve from 50 - 200. 100-120 is in the normal range with a standard deviation of 10. There are isolated instances of lower or higher IQs but are considered outlyers since a bell curve levels off to infinity at the extremes.
I'm sorry, Moondancer, but that's misinformation. On most IQ tests, 100 is exactly average, not the bottom of the normal range as implied above. (Some tests of mental ability are scored differently and don't use 100 as the center point.) There is a bell curve, but on a typical test the lowest possible score is 0, not 50. Different tests have different standard deviations; an S.D. of 10 is rather small. Scores above 120 or below 80 (again, on most tests) aren't outliers. 120 won't even get you into Mensa, which isn't terribly exclusive. Mensa takes the top 2%: 1 in 50 test takers.
 

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Kevin Yarbrough said:
What book club thing?


http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/newauthors/2950.htm
LindaP has been doing this, some call it a book club, it's with another poster here suggested, she prints out pages of authors books and the blurb, punches holes in the paper, ties them together with ribbon and distributes them everywhere she goes, she's been doing this for a long, long time. john might have mentioned a few times giving one other author money from the book, and that would have been Lynn Barry.
(The use of the small j in Johns name is endearment...I like this guy so I'm just trying to clarify).
 

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NicoleJLeBoeuf said:
Fair enough. I have really no clue as to what common ranges would be. Ed's assessment made it sound like 180 was pretty unlikely, and I heard a 153 brag being similarly scoffed at in some other forum... or maybe that was here? Everything's this big online blur... :)

It's kinda weird--I had to take the IQ test in high school, but my high school didn't believe in telling the students or their parents what the results were. I guess they were required to gather statistics and send them off somewhere. Creeped me out at the time, though, and pissed off my Mom. I have no idea what I scored.
I scored 20. I was suited to work opening mail, if only they could find away to do it where I wouldn't hurt myself. Still get paper cuts on my tongue.
 

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DaveKuzminski said:
Nope, back and front of a sheet are two pages.

I am so confused. I remember when this started, I said something like four hundred pages, and everyone said, "No, that's one page each, so it's 200 pages." So, Dave is right, it's 200 peices of paper, but it's 400 pages. :Shrug:

(I refuse to take an IQ test - it measures your ability to learn, and I already know everything) :hooray:

Ed Williams, loved the letter to PA...so funny!
 
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Ed Williams said:
Now Gratian, if you want this to go any further, you gotta buy me dinner first, I ain't easy, ya know!

cheeky-smiley-004.gif
That's not what I heard Ed.:box: :Clap: :LilLove: :flag: :box:
 

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Jonathon Michaels said:
I just checked and found the title under the Young Adult section at PA. Quite frankly it didn't much matter to us how it was classified. Another e-zine editor made the comment that this book was sort of like combining Alice in Wonderland with Debbie Does Dallas, and therein lies our disagreement: the two should never be in the same section, let alone between the same covers, so to speak.

I'll get with Terri and one of us will definitely send something to PA, although I'm pretty sure your assessment of their lack of response is entirely accurate.
Unless the book is titled "Alice does Wonderful Debbie in Dallas."
 

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Dolan said:
I think that I'm beginning to understand how to get my PA book stocked in bookstores.

I walk into a store, say nothing, and slap the snot out of the manager. Then tell him/her that they will stock my book because there is a new day coming in the publishing world and they better get aboard.

It is time to stop taking crap from the bookstores. They need us more than we need them and this is a proven fact!

Nurf

P. S. If I see that the manager is big then I will look for the asst. manager.

I'd wait until the manager goes home for the night. You don't want him sneaking up behind you, either.
 

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An e-mail I received

Please read and consider this. I'll comment on it later:

Jenna,

I'm a published PA author; humiliated, hurt, and dejected. I have been
reading the AW forum message boards for some time now and I want to be
completely honest and up front with you. Whenever I think about "coming
out" I read one of the forum members ( Williams, Chris, Dave, and a few
others) either laughing or making jokes about the "PAvidian stupidity" then
I back off. I am sure there are some in the forum who are sincere when they
say they are thinking also of the authors, but it doesn't ring true with
most of the arrogance I've observed on the boards. It is quite obvious that
the majority of the members think the lingering PA authors are stupid and
cannot write. In reality, the previous mentioned, have not a clue. The
more intellegent ex-PA authors are kinder in their reference to PA authors,
yet at times even those with "friends" still active on the PA board, say
very unkind things.

There are exceptionally bright and educated authors who have been trapped
into the PA cycle. I am one of the more fortunate ones who happen to live
in a small college community that is very supportive of local authors and
artist. We support aspiring authors, actors, and the arts of all mediums.
Don't get me wrong, they must be outstanding to get our promotional support;
however, we do encourage those who show promise for future success. Because
of the preceding facts mentioned, my novel has been easier to market than
perhaps the majority of PA authors would experience elsewhere.

I want it noted that I would never feel comfortable joining the AW forums
after reading some of the derogatory remarks made about PA authors. Good,
bad, or whatever, we are human beings with feelings, and most of us have a
great desire to write and turn out good material--and we do, more often than
not.

I find it very unprofessional, demeaning, and insulting that only the
comments made in ignorant innocence are copied and pasted to the forums,
while some of the more positive comments are left absolutely ignored.

(*Edited out a paragraph here.*)

If the participants of the forums who like to refer to PA authors in
derogatory terms are the least bit sincere, they will confine their comments
to intelligent, rational references. Actually, I would consider it a classy
person who could refer even to the CEO's of PA by their given names rather
than the idiotic terms used. What are they proving by putting themselves at
the level of those they despise so much? Think about it.

I don't think any person of half way intelligence, without knowing the whole
story, would come away feeling anything less than a bit of sympathy for PA
after reading the gang like bullying attitude. If they really want to
impress the reading audience they should speak, or I should say, write on
the boards as the educated and experienced writers they are. Surely, if as
good as they claim to be, they should be able to convey their message
without such inane statements that only hurt and demean the very ones they
claim they want to help.

I'm done.

I remain anonymous for obvious reasons.

You have my permission to post this on the "never ending PA thread."
 

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Ed Williams said:
...a magazine representing one of the branches of our armed forces is now refusing to review anymore PA books. Well, not only refusing to review them, but also refusing to take advertising money from PA. The reasons why:

1. Poor availability of titles, they don't want to review books that potential readers will have a hard time purchasing.

2. The poor editing reflected in many of the books.

This is pretty bad, folks, when even Uncle Sam is turning a disdainful eye towards PublishAmerica...
I wonder if they will make PA drop the America from their name. After all, did they not make Captain America drop it from his name years ago, or am I mistaken?

What other name could they use?

PublishApostasy is my guess.
 

NancyMehl

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This is a tough one...

Jenna,

I'm a published PA author; humiliated, hurt, and dejected. I have been
reading the AW forum message boards for some time now and I want to be
completely honest and up front with you. Whenever I think about "coming
out" I read one of the forum members ( Williams, Chris, Dave, and a few
others) either laughing or making jokes about the "PAvidian stupidity" then
I back off. I am sure there are some in the forum who are sincere when they
say they are thinking also of the authors, but it doesn't ring true with
most of the arrogance I've observed on the boards. It is quite obvious that
the majority of the members think the lingering PA authors are stupid and
cannot write. In reality, the previous mentioned, have not a clue. The
more intellegent ex-PA authors are kinder in their reference to PA authors,
yet at times even those with "friends" still active on the PA board, say
very unkind things.

There are exceptionally bright and educated authors who have been trapped
into the PA cycle. I am one of the more fortunate ones who happen to live
in a small college community that is very supportive of local authors and
artist. We support aspiring authors, actors, and the arts of all mediums.
Don't get me wrong, they must be outstanding to get our promotional support;
however, we do encourage those who show promise for future success. Because
of the preceding facts mentioned, my novel has been easier to market than
perhaps the majority of PA authors would experience elsewhere.

I want it noted that I would never feel comfortable joining the AW forums
after reading some of the derogatory remarks made about PA authors. Good,
bad, or whatever, we are human beings with feelings, and most of us have a
great desire to write and turn out good material--and we do, more often than
not.

I find it very unprofessional, demeaning, and insulting that only the
comments made in ignorant innocence are copied and pasted to the forums,
while some of the more positive comments are left absolutely ignored.

(*Edited out a paragraph here.*)

If the participants of the forums who like to refer to PA authors in
derogatory terms are the least bit sincere, they will confine their comments
to intelligent, rational references. Actually, I would consider it a classy
person who could refer even to the CEO's of PA by their given names rather
than the idiotic terms used. What are they proving by putting themselves at
the level of those they despise so much? Think about it.

I don't think any person of half way intelligence, without knowing the whole
story, would come away feeling anything less than a bit of sympathy for PA
after reading the gang like bullying attitude. If they really want to
impress the reading audience they should speak, or I should say, write on
the boards as the educated and experienced writers they are. Surely, if as
good as they claim to be, they should be able to convey their message
without such inane statements that only hurt and demean the very ones they
claim they want to help.

I'm done.

I remain anonymous for obvious reasons.

You have my permission to post this on the "never ending PA thread."

Listen, anonymous:

There are many PA authors here. I was supposedly one of PA's most successful authors. I really have no excuse for becoming involved with them because I knew Victoria Strauss before I signed the contract. If anyone should feel silly, it would be me. But I don't. And one of the reasons I don't is because of the people here who treat me with respect. Jim McDonald is one of the most compassionate people I've run across. He cares deeply about writers who are disappointed with their PA experiences. And of course there are others; Jenna, Ann, Dave, Victoria, etc. - successful authors who go out of their way to encourage ex PAers. This is a place you can feel comfortable. Trust me.

Now, for the other shoe. It isn't up to you to decide how other people should react to their PA experience. Some of them are very angry, some of them are sad, some confused - and their feelings may come out in ways that seem harsh or unkind. It would be a wonderful world if we could all toss our cares and pain aside and "keep a stiff upper lip," but that doesn't always happen. One good point you made is that we all need to remember that we should not "make fun" of current PA authors. For the most part, I think we try. But yes, sometimes we probably cross the line. I hope we all will attempt to do better - but I cannot promise you that we will always measure up to your expectations. We are human. I can guarantee you, however, that the people here will listen to you - and care about your situation. But that's as far as I can go. I could point out to you the instances of deliberate character assassination launched against others by PA administrators and authors that were so low snakes couldn't crawl under them - but I am uncomfortable with "tit for tat" arguments - even though I've made them before.

What I'm saying is this: I hope you join us. You will get support here. But, you will not control this place. Your opinion will be just as important as mine - or anyone elses. But that's as far as it goes. If someone says something that offends you - give them space. They may be hurting. Or - call us on it. We can take it. And you may help us to improve. But we don't need a den mother or father. (Don't know if you're male or female.)

We have Jenna and Jim for that...:Hug2:
 

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Beg yer pardon?

I find it very unprofessional, demeaning, and insulting that only the comments made in ignorant innocence are copied and pasted to the forums, while some of the more positive comments are left absolutely ignored.
I can't help but think this person has not read this topic closely, as the professionals among us regularly take to task those who get too personal. Also, we post the "ignorant innocence" so we may educate, should said author ever venture beyond the PA boards.

And what positive comments does this person refer to? The hundreds of "I got my dollar!!!" posts? Or the "I so happi I got my prooves and there's only few typos!"? I can’t speak for others, but I think such posts are more sad than positive, and I don't copy them because I don't wish to be accused of making fun of their “ignorant innocence”.
 

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Like CaoPaux, I try not to point out particular posts to snark on, unless they relate to the problems of PA specifically, or the cult-like behavior some authors sometimes display. I did point out a few pages ago, in general terms, that PA authors on the boards seem less concerned with proper grammar, spelling and punctuation than I'm used to seeing on most writers' boards. I definitely tried to make it an observation, though, not something to make fun of.

Since this board is neither Fametracker nor the Straight Dope, I try very carefully to moderate my remarks to fit the tone here. That said, if I have offended any PA writers who have not engaged in tactics to discredit others, I apologize.
 

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JennaGlatzer said:
Please read and consider this. I'll comment on it later:
{snip}

I'm not waiting for later. I'll try to be gentle. But I am a shark.

<:Lecture:> What that letter-writer was complaining about is the tendency to blame the victim. Frankly, AW is a lot better than most places about not blaming the victim of fraud; but not good enough. Y'all need to look at it this way:
The whole point of a fraudulent operation is to deceive people into giving up something of value in return for nothing of value.
I cannot count the number of physicians who have been taken for a ride by various fraudulent schemes. They have money; they don't know everything; and, therefore, they are an attractive target for both simple and sophisticated schemes.
One of my clients, who was victimized by both a scam agent and a scam publisher (neither being PA), was a judge. He is still a judge, and has been promoted to his state court of appeals. He was taken because the agent and publisher both convinced him that they had knowledge, skills, and capabilities that he did not have but wanted to take advantage of. He therefore forked over money.
"Blaming the victim" is a valid response when, and only when, the victim had both full knowledge and the capability to use that knowledge, and still—with the consequences staring him or her in the face—chose to partake in the scam. Even then, it should be rare and constructive, and oriented toward preventing future problems. Given the publishing industry's culture of secrecy and the dearth of credible, easily available information in publishing (and a certain publisher in Cincinnati that all too often contributes by distributing misinformation and out-of-context, out-of-date data)—and, sadly, this applies within the "high-end," too; try deciphering a royalty statement some time—I am completely unsurprised by the sheer number of victims of literary fraud.</:Lecture:>

:box: Blaming the perpetrator, however, is right on.
 

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My response

Instead of writing out my comments, it seems more logical to just paste the e-mail I sent back:

I appreciate that you wrote to me, and I do understand where you're coming from.

A few points I'd like to make--

I think the reason most of us are in this fight is that we DO believe there are intelligent, good authors among PA's ranks. If we didn't believe that, we'd have no incentive to fight... why ruin a delusion for people who would never have done any better? The thing that made me want to come out and speak against PA is that I read an excellent PA book and was heartbroken that the author would never have the audience she deserved. (She's now on our boards and still fighting to get back her rights.)

I don't particularly like the "PAvidian" title because I'm afraid it causes confusion about who it encompasses. I think the regulars at AW know who it encompasses, but PAers may think it's used to refer to them in general when it's not.

When one of our members talks about a PAvidian, he/she is talking about those who remain purposefully ignorant. People who don't bother to do any research and instead accept blindly everything PA says as fact, even when they have CRAZY amounts of evidence to the contrary. Then they go on to bully others into submission... "You should be thankful that PA took a chance on you! How dare you want them to be honest about distribution on top of that? Buy more of your own books and sell them out of your trunk and be grateful!"

I'm already sure that you would get a warm welcome at AW, but I'm not telling you to post there if it makes you uncomfortable. Maybe just stick around a while longer before you make up your mind.

What you'll see is that there's a large group of authors there with no agenda whatsoever except to help writers get fair deals. We've been working hard to ensure that PA doesn't continue to mislead authors. In the process, we've found that there's an awful lot of terrible advice being passed around the PA boards (about editing, publicity, how to make sales, etc.), and it would be kind of rotten of us if we DIDN'T try to correct all these misconceptions, considering that many of us have long publishing histories and know better. We can help PA authors learn what real publishing is about and how to make a career of writing books; it would be wrong of us to let the misinformation spread without comment.

Now, I understand that some of us aren't conscious enough of tone. Sometimes it's exasperating for us to read the jaw-droppingly-bad advice given on those boards, and the exasperation shows when we respond. It's something I've asked people to be aware of before, but I've put up your e-mail as a reminder. It really isn't meant to be personal-- it really isn't meant to convey that any of us believe PAers are, as a whole, stupid. But it's so damn frustrating for a lot of us to see the large number of PAers who continue to take poor advice from people with no publishing experience when we're *right here* trying to give them the truth. We can't post on those boards, and most of the people who now understand the truth from PA have been banned, so they can't chime in, either. It's frustrating to us that many choose to look no further than the PA boards, and choose to believe we're all "elitists" trying to keep them out of our "club." Or that we have some kind of conspiracy against them when the fact is that all we're trying to do is to HELP them by making their publisher stop misleading them.

Why would successful authors volunteer so much time trying to help inexperienced writers if we wanted to keep them OUT of the real publishing world? We'd just let them all stay at PA and sell 100 books and not compete with us.

That doesn't matter to a lot of PAers. Some will find any way they can to discredit those of us who are sticking our necks out to help. Those who've volunteered the most time to helping unhappy PA authors have been called plagiarists, "literary whores," pornographers, liars, etc. Some of your fellow authors lied to each other about me-- saying that I called all PA authors "stupid" (I never, ever said anything like that), that all of my books were self-published (despite how easy it is to find the silliness of that statement), that I got paid by NBC to say bad things about PA (?!), etc. One person stuck up for me and about 12 others believed it all without question and chimed in to laugh at me. Why? Because I tried to help them by wanting PA to quit misleading its authors about bookstore distribution, returns policies, overpricing, lack of editing, lack of editorial standards, etc. Therefore, I must be the devil and they must all know more about publishing than I do.

I have no sympathy whatsoever for the three principals behind PA. They're consistently lying to authors and they know it. They have been abusive to their own authors, they've done everything they can to line their own pockets while making life as difficult as possible for authors, and they've silenced anyone with a legitimate concern. Preying on writers' dreams is wrong. Getting rich off of lies is wrong. Calling them The Three Stooges is, in my mind, more than kind.

But I do not condone insulting or humiliating any PA author who's just trying to write and get read. It's a fine line to walk sometimes, trying to point out the misinformation they're giving each other without making fun of it. We have often, though, pointed out good posts as well. Typically, those posts are deleted by PA within hours. As you may notice, PA doesn't exactly like it when their authors begin to understand what real publishing is about. They become dangerous because if they spread their knowledge, PA will lose more customers (a.k.a. authors).

That was a very long way of saying I'm sorry you feel the way you do, most of us are doing our best and don't mean to take it out on any of PA's authors (just the publisher), and I hope you'll change your mind and join us on the boards when you feel ready.

Take care,
Jenna
 
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