Indicating someone's race...

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J.Emerson

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If it hasn't been mentioned already - which terms can be safely used to describe someone's race varies by your locality.

I was born and raised in Los Angeles, the epicenter of political correctness, and there "African American" was the way of it.

I've been living in New Orleans for several years now, and here, people will get offended if you call them African American. There are actually a lot of true Africans living here (particularly from Nigeria), and the label can get you in trouble. Here, Black is safer. Though, you'll still find be people who object to the term, I've been told here before that the term Negro is better, because it is more accurately anthropologically speaking, Negroid being the true racial group, versus Caucasoid or Mongoloid (it was an older Black lady who told me this; I used to teach classes on cultural sensitivity for behavioral health professionals and let me tell you I learned loads about the local practices). Personally I'd be afraid to use the term Negro, because to ME it sounds offensive. Not that it should matter what I think, but I still wouldn't say it.

But when writing, I personally describe the color of someone's skin before I mention ethnicity. I mean I would never label my White characters White, but I might say her skin is ghostly pale, or sun-kissed tan, or freckled, or that her cheeks are gleaming pink, like they'd just been scrubbed fresh. Whatever. And calling someone African American doesn't actually tell you the color of their skin - is it dark, with inky black undertones? Or like rich like coffee? Or warm like caramel? There are countless variations, part of what makes the descriptive process so fascinating. There's so much to work with.

Describing the appearance is more meaningful than slapping the label on them. Besides, you can't make everyone happy. What pleases someone from one part of the country could offend someone else a state away.
 
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J.Emerson

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Also... not only was I brought up in a hyper PC place (Los Angeles), where you always had to worry about offending someone and quite literally getting your ass kicked, but my ex-husband was Chinese, making our daughter half Chinese and half Caucasian. Depending on who she stands next to, she can look either Asian, or White.

Here in the deep South, she is labeled as being White (because the younger kids anyway break it into that dichotomy - if you're not black, then you're White, end of story). But my daughter has always been infuriated by that, not because she objects to being White, which she is in part, but because she is ALSO Asian.

Labels are tricky things. They lead us to assume a lot, based on our biases and personal experiences - and maybe those are things we don't intend our reader to assume. So for me anyway, the more descriptive info the better. No asses of you and me needed :)
 

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J. Emerson, if you haven't already done so, do read the entirety of the thread. It answers most, if not all, of your questions. :)

If it hasn't been mentioned already - which terms can be safely used to describe someone's race varies by your locality. Yep, this is true.

I was born and raised in Los Angeles, the epicenter of political correctness, and there "African American" was the way of it. When I was attending college in NorCal a few years back, this was certainly the norm. But I've been going back to NorCal pretty regularly and the term is quickly going out of date.

I've been living in New Orleans for several years now, and here, people will get offended if you call them African American. There are actually a lot of true Africans living here (particularly from Nigeria), and the label can get you in trouble. Here, Black is safer. Though, you'll still find be people who object to the term, I've been told here before that the term Negro is better, because it is more accurately anthropologically speaking, Negroid being the true racial group, versus Caucasoid or Mongoloid (it was an older Black lady who told me this; I used to teach classes on cultural sensitivity for behavioral health professionals and let me tell you I learned loads about the local practices). Personally I'd be afraid to use the term Negro, because to ME it sounds offensive. Right. :) I feel iffy saying it too. In Indonesia, that is the term that people use. "Orang Negro" (orang = person/human being) But in the US and UK it somehow doesn't feel right. Not that it should matter what I think, but I still wouldn't say it.

But when writing, I personally describe the color of someone's skin before I mention ethnicity. I mean I would never label my White characters White, why not? Is it because white is the default? ;) but I might say her skin is ghostly pale, or sun-kissed tan, or freckled, or that her cheeks are gleaming pink, like they'd just been scrubbed fresh. Whatever. And calling someone African American doesn't actually tell you the color of their skin - is it dark, with inky black undertones? But why does the color of their skin matter? It actually doesn't matter in the least, unless you're writing something like romance, where the character's appearance does matter. Otherwise, why would the color of their skin matter? Color actually tells me nothing about the character. I'm Asian, but I'm a lot fairer than most of my white friends. So if I were to be described by just my skin, most people would assume I'm white. Which would be wrong. I'd much rather people just say "an Asian girl" if I were to cameo in a book. :D Or like rich like coffee? Or warm like caramel? Please, not the food names. Why the food? Notice that when you describe the white character, there was a distinct lack of food? :) There are countless variations, part of what makes the descriptive process so fascinating. There's so much to work with. The variation and creativity when it comes to describing the color of a character's skin is not the issue here. The issue is that white default happens. If you're okay with people assuming that your black character is a "tanned white person", then that's cool, stick to just descriptions of skin color. I'm not okay with it, so I like to state what race my characters are.

Describing the appearance is more meaningful than slapping the label on them. Nope, it's not. Besides, you can't make everyone happy. What pleases someone from one part of the country could offend someone else a state away.

Also... not only was I brought up in a hyper PC place (Los Angeles), where you always had to worry about offending someone and quite literally getting your ass kicked, but my ex-husband was Chinese, making our daughter half Chinese and half Caucasian. Depending on who she stands next to, she can look either Asian, or White.

Here in the deep South, she is labeled as being White (because the younger kids anyway break it into that dichotomy - if you're not black, then you're White, end of story). But my daughter has always been infuriated by that, not because she objects to being White, which she is in part, but because she is ALSO Asian. Riiight...so...why not just SAY she is half-white, half-Asian?? If you were to describe your daughter in a book, do you think people would get that she's half-Asian and half-white from a description of skin color and even facial features?

Labels are tricky things. They lead us to assume a lot, based on our biases and personal experiences - and maybe those are things we don't intend our reader to assume. So for me anyway, the more descriptive info the better. No asses of you and me needed :) Again, nope. Actually, relying on descriptions is what forces the reader into assumptions. These are your characters. You know what race they are, so there is no assumption on your end. If you were to say "a black student", no one is going to say, "Wait, but you're wrong, he's not black".

Acknowledging someone's race is not a bad thing. What IS bad is attaching judgment to the person based on his/her race.
 

kuwisdelu

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The terms Caucasoid, Mongoloid, and Negroid are also inaccurately simplistic and considered outdated and racist by many anthropologists. I wouldn't take their use seriously.
 
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patskywriter

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I've known whites who felt that mentioning race is in itself racist and that it keeps us from becoming a color-blind society. So I can understand the hesitation. I don't like the notion that stating the race of a person is rude and much prefer the straightforward approach.

I don't think that the actual color of a character matters unless the writer chooses to show how the features of a person is reflected in how he's treated. I would guess that many writers would assume that dark and light people are interchangeable. Sometimes they are, but it all depends on the situation.
 

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Oooo, interesting response. I don't agree with all of it, but that's half the fun, right?? :)

J. Emerson, if you haven't already done so, do read the entirety of the thread. It answers most, if not all, of your questions. :)



Acknowledging someone's race is not a bad thing. What IS bad is attaching judgment to the person based on his/her race.

Let's see... yes, I know the status quo in Cali has changed, I haven't lived there since '06. I just know what I was raised with, and since then I was in Santa Fe for 5 years (with a negligible Black population, almost as low as their Asian population), and now I'm in New Orleans, where racial issues are everything and nothing, all at the same time.

As to why I wouldn't label my White characters White - first, yes, it is probably the default unless someone says otherwise, but that's not why I'd avoid it. I'd avoid labeling as White right out of the gate because I personally don't feel like it tells you anything. I'm White, but I think saying so is less descriptive than saying I'm pale, freckled, and red-headed. But that's my own bias. I don't like that label for myself because I feel like it tells you nothing. I'd rather be described as scotch-irish, which connotes culture, than White, which is purely racial and somewhat charged (to me).

And yes, I do write romance, so the appearance is important. But I'm a VERY visual thinker, so appearance is always important to me, whether it's a person, or their surroundings, or whether I'm writing a psychological assessment or a research paper on bullying, being descriptive is important to getting your message across (though admittedly in the mental health mien, my descriptors would be a tad different, lol). I'll put down a book real fast that doesn't at least take steps to 'paint the picture'. So I write it how I like it, though I know not everyone is in that boat.

I suppose I differentiate between painting a visual and telling you about the character. My writing is character development first, plot second. Sometimes I wish it were the other way around, the writing would probably be easier, but with my professional background I just can't help it. <<sigh>>

And as for food names... well, I have no good response for that. It's evocative for me, though, I can certainly understand if it bugs you. And I can't help it if someone's dark skin makes me think, ooo, luscious like chocolate. I know I'm not the only one!

It's not that I won't reference race - I do. But it isn't the FIRST thing I say. I'd rather paint the picture first. From my perspective, being on the end of being raised White and having it connote NOTHING about me, I'm predisposed to making more qualitative descriptions first. To me, race is the least descriptive quality, because of all the variations involved.

Now, that said, I totally get it when someone from a racial minority sees it the absolute opposite way. With dominant White culture basically going around and eradicating anything that doesn't align with it (or saying it isn't important, or shouldn't be dwelled upon, blah blah), I would probably be pretty invested in making sure that part of my identity was represented. I will rethink that part a little. That may be a response to where I'm living now, versus the way I was raised, and my inherent "cautiousness".

And sorry, but I still think painting a picture and letting someone make their own interpretations of that picture is more meaningful than simply slapping a label on them, so I'll have to agree to disagree with you there ;)

As it relates to how I would represent my child if I were writing about her - yes, I would indicate that she was mixed, racially. I'm not saying I avoid the racial labels altogether, I don't, I'm saying that I don't fall back on them and expect they are going to convey a full picture, because all they really do is tell you what continuum you're working from. It then becomes my job to elucidate their place on the continuum... imo :)

Oh, and I'm a psychologist by trade, so I'm very accustomed to people attaching a judgment to someone's race, whether they admit it mixed company or not. I don't want someone reading my work to jump to conclusions that are inaccurate because I know for a fact people do it CONSTANTLY.

Anyway, thanks for your responses!! They were thought-provoking :)
 
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Putputt

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Oooo, interesting response. I don't agree with all of it, but that's half the fun, right?? :)



Let's see... yes, I know the status quo in Cali has changed, I haven't lived there since '06. I just know what I was raised with, and since then I was in Santa Fe for 5 years (with a negligible Black population, almost as low as their Asian population), and now I'm in New Orleans, where racial issues are everything and nothing, all at the same time. Yea, I am sometimes caught off-guard by racial issues as well, especially because they are so fluid. I remember that "Hispanic" used to be the polite term to use about ten years ago in Cali, but recently a friend of mine told me she and most of the Latinos she knows prefer "Latina/Latino", so it's always a learning process.

As to why I wouldn't label my White characters White - first, yes, it is probably the default unless someone says otherwise, but that's not why I'd avoid it. I'd avoid labeling as White right out of the gate because I personally don't feel like it tells you anything. I'm White, but I think saying so is less descriptive than saying I'm pale, freckled, and red-headed. I think this is quite a privilege, tbh. :) I wish I could say that the color of my skin tells people more about me than my race does, but I'm not sure what my skin color says about me other than that I'm fair and slightly yellow-tinged. So say there's a "fair-skinned girl" in your book. Most readers would think "white person". But what if she's actually Asian? Or Latino? Or anything but white? But that's my own bias. I don't like that label for myself because I feel like it tells you nothing. I'd rather be described as scotch-irish, which connotes culture, than White, which is purely racial and somewhat charged (to me). On the same note, there is nothing wrong with saying "Chinese girl" instead of "Asian girl" if your preference is to be more specific.

And yes, I do write romance, so the appearance is important. But I'm a VERY visual thinker, so appearance is always important to me, whether it's a person, or their surroundings, or whether I'm writing a psychological assessment or a research paper on bullying, being descriptive is important to getting your message across (though admittedly in the mental health mien, my descriptors would be a tad different, lol). I'll put down a book real fast that doesn't at least take steps to 'paint the picture'. So I write it how I like it, though I know not everyone is in that boat. Being visual is perfectly fine. We are writers, we strive to paint a picture with our words. But I'm saying that pure description cannot take the place of explicitly stating what a character's race is, especially when the character is a PoC. Google "Rue is black" and you'll see why.

I suppose I differentiate between painting a visual and telling you about the character. My writing is character development first, plot second. Sometimes I wish it were the other way around, the writing would probably be easier, but with my professional background I just can't help it. <<sigh>> I'm not sure how this relates to the discussion, but okay. :)

And as for food names... well, I have no good response for that. It's evocative for me, though, I can certainly understand if it bugs you. It's not really about "bugging me". :D It is an actual issue. Again, Google is your friend. And I can't help it if someone's dark skin makes me think, ooo, luscious like chocolate. I know I'm not the only one! I'm not sure how the fact that you're not the only one is supposed to make it right. :D I'm also not the only one who finds food descriptions when it comes to PoC problematic, so...?

It's not that I won't reference race - I do. But it isn't the FIRST thing I say. I never said it has to be the first thing you say. I'd rather paint the picture first. From my perspective, being on the end of being raised White and having it connote NOTHING about me, I'm predisposed to making more qualitative descriptions first. To me, race is the least descriptive quality, because of all the variations involved. I think this is quite a privilege, tbh. See, I'm of Chinese ethnicity. I spent my childhood in Indonesia and Singapore. In Singapore, the Chinese make up the majority of the population, so as someone who is ethnically Chinese, I never once thought about my own race. I thought the same way you do, that it connotes NOTHING about me. Why? Because I'm part of the majority group. Whatever racism there was (and there was plenty) in Singapore, it didn't affect me. So I can see why you would say that race is the least descriptive quality. However, when you write about someone who is NOT part of that majority group, race more often than not becomes a huge part of their identity. If you were to write about a white person who is born and raised in Japan, for example, would you just say, "a black-haired, petite girl" and leave the reader to guess that the character is actually white? Or would you say something like, "Her parents had moved from Scotland years before she was born, and she inherited their green eyes blah blah blah"?

Now, that said, I totally get it when someone from a racial minority sees it the absolute opposite way. With dominant White culture basically going around and eradicating anything that doesn't align with it (or saying it isn't important, or shouldn't be dwelled upon, blah blah), I would probably be pretty invested in making sure that part of my identity was represented. Ah, so you are aware of the erasure of PoC. Yay. I will rethink that part a little. It's interesting to me that this, the crux of why I think it's so important to mention race, especially of PoC characters, warrants only a little thought. :D Do think about it. It's not a small matter. It's a huge problem that is insidious in its nature. Take a look on Twitter and look up #WeNeedDiverseBooks. You'll find plenty of reasons why race needs to be mentioned. That may be a response to where I'm living now, versus the way I was raised, and my inherent "cautiousness".

And sorry, but I still think painting a picture and letting someone make their own interpretations of that picture is more meaningful than simply slapping a label on them, so I'll have to agree to disagree with you there ;) Huh? So despite the knowledge that erasure happens, that readers WILL default to white, you still think it's fine to have readers assume that every character is white? Oh well. I have nothing to say that won't cross RFYW, so I will leave that alone. :D As a side note, acknowledging that a character is "Asian" or "black" or "white" is NOT slapping a label on them. Unless you think that saying a character is "female" versus "male" is slapping a label as well? Or saying a character is "a toddler" or a "teenager"? ;) It's merely pointing out facts, and there's nothing harmful in doing that. What IS harmful is attaching judgment to said facts. For example, if you see a female character and you think, "Ah, female. Therefore, her place is in the kitchen." But the acknowledgement that the character is female does not automatically bring about that judgment. That depends on the reader, which is something you can't control.

As it relates to how I would represent my child if I were writing about her - yes, I would indicate that she was mixed, racially. I'm not saying I avoid the racial labels altogether, I don't, I'm saying that I don't fall back on them and expect they are going to convey a full picture, Right...I'm not saying you should completely rely on explicitly stating the character's race in order to tell the reader everything about them. :D I don't say, "a black student" and then sit back and let the reader make all sorts of assumptions based on just that. I can still show what she looks like, what subjects she studies, what her hobbies are etc. They are not exclusive of each other. because all they really do is tell you what continuum you're working from. It then becomes my job to elucidate their place on the continuum... imo :)

Oh, and I'm a psychologist by trade, so I'm very accustomed to people attaching a judgment to someone's race, whether they admit it mixed company or not. I don't want someone reading my work to jump to conclusions that are inaccurate because I know for a fact people do it CONSTANTLY. Yea, that happens. The answer is not to never mention race. That is all I'm saying.

Anyway, thanks for your responses!! They were thought-provoking :)
.
 
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kuwisdelu

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Yea, I am sometimes caught off-guard by racial issues as well, especially because they are so fluid. I remember that "Hispanic" used to be the polite term to use about ten years ago in Cali, but recently a friend of mine told me she and most of the Latinos she knows prefer "Latina/Latino", so it's always a learning process.

Much like the "African American"/"black" thing, it's not so much a matter of politeness or political correctness so much as it is a matter of accuracy.

Hispanic and Latino/Latina are different groups, though there is a considerable amount of overlap. Hispanic connotes Spanish origins, and while most Latinos have some degree Spanish ancestry, not all of them do, nor do they necessarily wish to emphasize it if they do. Hispanics can be white, and many of them are. George Zimmermman, for example, is a white Hispanic. Latinos and Latinas are predominantly people of color.
 

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Much like the "African American"/"black" thing, it's not so much a matter of politeness or political correctness so much as it is a matter of accuracy.

Hispanic and Latino/Latina are different groups, though there is a considerable amount of overlap. Hispanic connotes Spanish origins, and while most Latinos have some degree Spanish ancestry, not all of them do, nor do they necessarily wish to emphasize it if they do. Hispanics can be white, and many of them are. George Zimmermman, for example, is a white Hispanic. Latinos and Latinas are predominantly people of color.

Thanks. :) That's along the lines of what my friend told me.
 

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Hispanics can be white, and many of them are. George Zimmermman, for example, is a white Hispanic.

George Zimmerman does not look white. His skin is dark and his features are Hispanic. It was the media who labelled him 'white' in order to play the race card.
 

kuwisdelu

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George Zimmerman does not look white. His skin is dark and his features are Hispanic. It was the media who labelled him 'white' in order to play the race card.

Believe it or not, black, brown, or white isn't actually about skin color. Hispanics can be white, and roughly more than half of the Hispanics in the US identify as white. Zimmerman is mixed and could probably identify as either. Many of us who are mixed can pass as white if we wish to, and that's what many did historically to avoid racism. Claiming an identity comes with responsibility. I don't know how Zimmerman himself identifies, but it's clear the trial was decided on the basis of white privilege.

There are even many people of color who are blonde and blue-eyed. That doesn't make them white.
 
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LupineMoon

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Hmm. Wasn't aware of that. The term has a broader definition than I figured. Still a neat term. Thnx for the info.

I discovered this when I went to college and was very surprised to find that I (I'm half-Asian, half-white) was also included in this category. Until then, I had only heard "person of color" to refer to African-American or black people, so that was an education for me. Not to mention, I'd been trying my hardest to ignore my Asian heritage, but I won't get into that here. So it was jarring for me to be referred to as such, but I've gotten used to it.

My college had several groups, the Black Student Association, a group for southern-Asian, Mexican, Latin-American students etc. I didn't fit in to any of those categories so I was extremely happy when I discovered a student group for those of mixed-race, although there were very few of us. It was gratifying to have people to talk to about things.
 

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I'm having a problem with this, too.

My MC's best friend is black. She's white, he's black, but his race doesn't play into their relationship, really. They're both from similar enough backgrounds that they're just friends. It's a 1st person narrative, and I just can't hear her referring to him as "Black." I tried describing his skin color in various ways, but they come across cliche. I tried comparisons to a famous actor, but people just read it as a white version of that actor.

Maybe I just suck at creating a believable black character - but this guy is based on a real person, who really acts and speaks much the same way this character does, so I'm stumped.
 

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I'm having a problem with this, too.

… It's a 1st person narrative, and I just can't hear her referring to him as "Black." I tried describing his skin color in various ways, but they come across cliche. …

I have a good friend named Sandy. If someone asked me to describe her, I'd probably start off with, "Well, she's white, kinda short-ish, etc etc." Or if I felt a more detailed description was needed, I'd say that she's half-Yugoslavian and half-Polish. Race isn't an important factor in our friendship—music is. But that wouldn't stop me from mentioning her race if I were to describe her.

I'd lead with the fact that she's a woman only if I sensed that her gender was in question. In other words, if someone asked, "Sandy? Who's that? Describe him for me."

Sandy is very matter of fact. If she were to describe me, I know she'd say I'm black. She'd probably also call my hair "dreadlocks," a term many black folks don't like, LOL, and she'd probably also mention that I'm really tall for a lady.

I grew up in an almost-all-black community and Sandy was raised in a Polish suburb. Although we often come to the same conclusions when discussing news of the day, we're very aware of the "differentness" of our backgrounds. This makes our conversations deeper and more interesting.
 
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Roxxsmom

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Yes and no. I used to think that descriptions like that would be sufficient, but nope. Let's not forget the whole Rue-is-not-black debacle. White default happens, and I'm pretty sure if you ask people what race the character is based on that description, many of them would say "tanned white person".

I much prefer to just say the character's race when it is appropriate (as in when it befits the story's circumstances). Fortunately, my last book is a YA contemporary set in the US, so I could say "black girl", "Asian guy", "Latina", "white girl" etc without any mention of "mocha skin" or *shudders* "almond-shaped eyes". It is a sad truth that white default exists, and whenever I can, I will make it undeniably clear that my characters are PoC.

I agree that readers most often default to white when they're not given a cue. I know we've discussed the extra challenge of writing people who more or less resemble members of real-world "racial groups" that aren't white/Caucasian/European when a story is set in a secondary world. A given character might look like someone whose ancestors came from West Africa, or India, or what is now the American Southwest, or China or wherever, but these places don't exist in your fantasy world, and the cultures may not carry over either.

There, I do have to provide a description and attribute a location from my world to them and hope it gets the message across.

I don't think there's a one size fits all approach. In addition to world building issues, how membership in a racial and cultural group is perceived and described will indeed depend on the pov that person is being shown through.
 
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msza45

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I ran into this issue too. The way I got around it was not to mention the character's color in the exposition, and wait to introduce it through another character's dialogue.

My story is set in the past when calling a Black person "colored" was normal. So I just had another character say, "Hey, colored boy..." or something similar.
 

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I have many friends who are Caucasian, and if someone asked me to describe one of them I'd say; "Oh, she/he's funny, opinionated, wears glasses and has short/long, curly/straight, brown/blonde/red hair.

I avoid mentioning race because it doesn't matter to me and I usually ask "what difference does it make?" if the person inquiring makes an issue of it. :Shrug:

Oh, and I'm also one of those people who don't mind being described as "caramel-colored" or the shade of a "hazelnut"

I mean, who doesn't like chocolate - milk or dark? :D
 

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Believe it or not, black, brown, or white isn't actually about skin color. Hispanics can be white, and roughly more than half of the Hispanics in the US identify as white. Zimmerman is mixed and could probably identify as either. Many of us who are mixed can pass as white if we wish to, and that's what many did historically to avoid racism. Claiming an identity comes with responsibility. I don't know how Zimmerman himself identifies, but it's clear the trial was decided on the basis of white privilege.

There are even many people of color who are blonde and blue-eyed. That doesn't make them white.

Quoted for truth. I can't pass for white, that's for damn sure. But others can, and choose to. It's part of the origins of colorism in the PoC community, who can "pass" and who can't.
 

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Oh, and I'm also one of those people who don't mind being described as "caramel-colored" or the shade of a "hazelnut"

I mean, who doesn't like chocolate - milk or dark? :D

I'm the same. I don't have an issue referring to myself as "honey-complected", even though I know some people flinch as I do so.

Sometimes food is a good comparison to describe various skin tones.
 

LupineMoon

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I'd also like to add the term "Oriental" to the list of outdated terms. Not sure if I'm the only one, but despite my father's explanation that it's a counter to Occidental, I find it offensive, probably because I've read too much about Orientalism. I've yet to be referred to as such, but if I do, I'd like to tell them that I'm not a rug/carpet, thank you very much.
 

Barbara R.

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"Person of color" is basically shorthand for non-white.

But it's longer.

Still, I agree it's useful, and a more positive term than "non-white," which defines people by what they're not.

Why can't I just call you kuwi, and treat you like a member of the human race? That seems pretty easy to me.

Do you need me to label you? (If so, just let me know which one of the eleventy billion above ;))

Just whistle a happy tune, in other words....? Race, sexual orientation, religion, nationality all go into making people, real and fictional, who they are. They should be celebrated in our writing, not elided.

Have you all been following the #WeNeedDiverseBooks campaign on Twitter and Tumblr? My own thoughts on the subject, based on experience as an agent and editor, are here. You don't have to be a PoC to advocate for diversity, which enriches us all.
 

endearing

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Just whistle a happy tune, in other words....? Race, sexual orientation, religion, nationality all go into making people, real and fictional, who they are. They should be celebrated in our writing, not elided.

Have you all been following the #WeNeedDiverseBooks campaign on Twitter and Tumblr? My own thoughts on the subject, based on experience as an agent and editor, are here. You don't have to be a PoC to advocate for diversity, which enriches us all.

I agree with this. I certainly understand why some people would prefer not to mention race and try to move toward a "color-blind" society, but the truth is that race still matters. I'm Asian and that's an important part of my identity--and though it's by no means a constant barrage, it definitely affects me. For example, not having read a book with a main character that looked like me, in a genre/with a plot I was actually interested in (and not just so I could finally read about an Asian), until quite recently.

To be clear: I'm not saying an Asian can't identify with a non-Asian. Just that there are important categories that do comprise our identity, and I'd rather we celebrate them and talk about them than pretend they don't exist.
 
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Roxxsmom

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But it's longer.

Still, I agree it's useful, and a more positive term than "non-white," which defines people by what they're not.



Just whistle a happy tune, in other words....? Race, sexual orientation, religion, nationality all go into making people, real and fictional, who they are. They should be celebrated in our writing, not elided.

Have you all been following the #WeNeedDiverseBooks campaign on Twitter and Tumblr? My own thoughts on the subject, based on experience as an agent and editor, are here. You don't have to be a PoC to advocate for diversity, which enriches us all.

I agree, but if you're white and you get too emphatic with your arguments on behalf of such things, you can end up looking like a complete chump.

Case in point, I was debating this very topic on another writer's forum, and the guy who I'd all but accused of being a well-meaning but ignorant white guy (I think I said that most of the people I knew who insisted that a character's race or ethnicity wasn't important were white), because he said he rarely mentions race or racial appearances in his writing unless it's essential to the story because he usually writes stories in settings where race just isn't important. Well, he let me know (kindly and outside of the forum) that he's a PoC.

So I was "whitesplaining" how hurtful it is to have one's ethnicity erased to someone who would know a hell of a lot more about that that I ever could (I just have the relative paucity of well-drawn female characters in the kinds of books I enjoy reading as a comparison) and is obviously not bothered by it.

I apologized. Not much else I can do.

So now I wonder if most of those writers out there who are blogging about this and are saying how important it is for race to not be invisible in fiction are just liberal white people who are telling PoC how they should feel about the way race is portrayed in novels. But I know PoC who have said it's important to them. But if I quote that, then I'm just falling into that "well my black/Asian/Latinia friend said that..." thing that is used by racists sometimes too.

I don't know what to do or say anymore. I want to do the right thing and present things like culture, race, heritage and so on realistically, respectfully, and appropriately in my writing (and not set my stories in worlds where everyone is assumed to be white), but if I can pull a blooper like that, well then :(
 
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Putputt

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I agree, but if you're white and you get too emphatic with your arguments on behalf of such things, you can end up looking like a complete chump.

Case in point, I was debating this very topic on another writer's forum, and the guy who I'd all but accused of being a well-meaning but ignorant white guy (I think I said that most of the people I knew who insisted that a character's race or ethnicity wasn't important were white), because he said he rarely mentions race or racial appearances in his writing unless it's essential to the story because he usually writes stories in settings where race just isn't important. Well, he let me know (kindly and outside of the forum) that he's a PoC.

So I was "whitesplaining" how hurtful it is to have one's ethnicity erased to someone who would know a hell of a lot more about that that I ever could (I just have the relative paucity of well-drawn female characters in the kinds of books I enjoy reading as a comparison) and is obviously not bothered by it.

I apologized. So now I wonder if most of those writers out there who are blogging about this and are saying how important it is for race to not be invisible in fiction are just liberal white people who are telling PoC how they should feel about the way race is portrayed in novels. But I know PoC who have said it's important to them. But if I quote that, then I'm just falling into that "well my black/Asian/Latinia friend said that..." thing that is used by racists sometimes too.

I don't know what to do or say anymore. I want to do the right thing and present things like culture, race, heritage and so on realistically, respectfully, and appropriately in my writing, but if I can pull a blooper like that, well then :(

Gah, I'm sorry you had to go through that, Roxxsmom! I think it's just a matter of people having different opinions. I know fellow PoC who don't really care if race is mentioned at all in books. They know that white-washing happens, and they couldn't care less about it. Obviously I disagree strongly with them, but they're individuals too, with the rights to their own opinions. You have the same right, and you can speak for yourself! You as a human being have the right to feel that having one's race be erased is harmful. You don't have to be a PoC to have that opinion. :)

And just because someone is a PoC doesn't make them automatically right when it comes to issues about race. :D
 

Roxxsmom

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That's the thing. No one is a hive mind, and one mistake white people often make, even when we like to think of themselves as liberal, is to assume that people from other backgrounds are more uniform in their opinions and experiences than we are.

But I feel like a dork for trying to argue eloquently on why it might not be a good idea to ignore these things in stories, because it can be hurtful to people who aren't the race that most people default to, and have someone gently remind me that it's not my battle to fight.

I do think that's a legitimate concern sometimes: white people, straight people, men etc. and other allies telling people of color, LGBT people, and women about their own experiences (I get annoyed with my husband, who is not at all sexist, about this now and again). This doesn't mean I'm going to ignore race, orientation etc. in my own writing, but it does make me more hesitant to tell others how they should approach it in theirs.

And still, we live in a world where this happened just ten years ago.
 
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