I found something upsetting

Lillith1991 said:

Nope, I'm not contradicting myself and neither is Kuwi. I'm saying that I don't have a problem with it, but she should be aware others might take issue with it and for what reason whatever her choice in the future.

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Okay. But that's not what you made it sound like in the beginning.

One thing this discussion has made me think on is how so many of us Americans feel we have no culture to call our own, which may make us inclined to be culturally 'grabby', and then feel hurt when other cultures don't want to share.

I am a typical American. My grandpa's folks came here on the boat from Norway. I'm at least 25% Native American, but probably a good deal more, judging by my appearance. Mostly Apache, but some other tribes are in me as well. One of my ancestors is Robert the Bruce, so there is Scottish. And I have a German last name. Do I have black in me? Maybe. Were any of my ancestors slave masters? Maybe. I don't know.

Point being, I have this colorful ancestry. But it's so mixed and obscure, I can't truly be a part of any of it. And that makes me freakin' sad, all the time. Because culture is awesome, and it's a strong human desire to have something to identify with. I've always been jealous of those who have unique little cultural things to call their own, since I was a small child.

Neegh said:

This is a stupid discussion. White people have been braiding their hair like this for many years; why someone has now decided to make an issue of this at this point is beyond me.

What's next...telling white Rastafarians that they have to shave off their dreadlocks?

Chill...

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You are very close to violating the rules of both this forum and AW itself. I suggest you go over both.

It is not "stupid". Other AW'ers have politely explained about cultural appropriation. You are ignoring their POVs and insulting them as well. If you cannot listen and learn,then excuse yourself from this forum and this discussion can continue.

Privilege allows you to have this POV and dismiss others concerns. For Black women and the external views of our hair,it is very serious. Braids and other styles non Blacks think are " cute" are for us styles that are demonized,ghetto,unattractive and in some cases,seen as militant and threatening to Whites. Box braids were not created by anybody other than Blacks,as are many other hairstyles.

Yes,it is offensive to see styles we've worn our entire lives suddenly become"trendy" and "acceptable" because a White person wears them. There is nothing wrong with sharing culture. But for us,a people who have repeatedly seen elements of our culture be stolen and copied,yes it is a problem. The issue is that the creators are never acknowledged or given respect.

Now that I've said my two cents,hopefully this discussion can continue peacefully.

Brutal Mustang said:

One thing this discussion has made me think on is how so many of us Americans feel we have no culture to call our own, which may make us inclined to be culturally 'grabby', and then feel hurt when other cultures don't want to share.

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I've always found people from other cultures are happy and eager to share their cultures.

But appropriation isn't sharing.

It's taking without respect or thought to how the people from that culture feel.

If you want people to share with you, then you have to approach them politely and respectfully.

(General you.)

Brutal Mustang said:

One thing this discussion has made me think on is how so many of us Americans feel we have no culture to call our own, which may make us inclined to be culturally 'grabby', and then feel hurt when other cultures don't want to share.

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This is something I might need to sit down and think about. From the outside, it often seems as though "American Culture" is in danger of swamping other, more fragile cultures. (I'm looking at you, Hollywood. I'm looking at you, American Constitution. I'm looking at you, American Rules of Spelling )

Do you mean that many Americans feel that within that whole amorphous grab-bag of "American Culture" there is nothing that they feel is theirs? That's an interesting point of view.

mccardey said:

This is something I might need to sit down and think about. From the outside, it often seems as though "American Culture" is in danger of swamping other, more fragile cultures. (I'm looking at you, Hollywood. I'm looking at you, American Constitution. I'm looking at you, American Rules of Spelling )

Do you mean that many Americans feel that within that whole amorphous grab-bag of "American Culture" there is nothing that they feel is theirs? That's an interesting point of view.

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It mostly seems to be felt by Americans who happen to be white and Christian. I've never heard any Jewish person say it, though somebody somewhere may have. A consequence of being seen as the default/standard. I know I consider myself as typical as mustang and most of my ancestors have been in the US since it was naught but a gaggle of colonies, both White and Black. Some where even here before then, and some were immagrants not 100 years ago. But because I am a visible minority I'm not seen as typical, but I know I am.

mccardey said:

Do you mean that many Americans feel that within that whole amorphous grab-bag of "American Culture" there is nothing that they feel is theirs? That's an interesting point of view.

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I swear there is something practically pathological about whites' desire to "play Indian."

I'm sure there's enough there for a dissertation. Probably several.

Lillith1991 said:

It mostly seems to be felt by Americans who happen to be white and Christian. I've never heard any Jewish person say it, though somebody somewhere may have. A consequence of being seen as the default/standard. I know I consider myself as typical as mustang and most of my ancestors have been in the US since it was naught but a gaggle of colonies, both White and Black. Some where even here before then, and some were immagrants not 100 years ago. But because I am a visible minority I'm not seen as typical, but I know I am.

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I can't say much about the American culture with any degree of certainty, what with me not being American.

However, I do know that being seen as 'default' or 'standard' does not quite necessarily lead to feeling a lack of culture--at least, outside the USA. (Just see, for example, Italy, where Italians definitely are seen as the standard. They don't feel as though they're lacking a culture to call theirs. Same with the Japanese in Japan, or the Greek in Greece.)

(As an outsider, I would say that the to me visible "American" culture is for a good part "define oneself by where the ancestors came from", and for far longer than would be the case in, for example, most of Europe. But when you try to define yourself by the origins of your ancestors, and part of that is Irish, part is Italian, part is German, part is British, throw in some Spanish, French, etc., none of those cultures are really "yours". Because you're more not-French than you're French, more not-Italian than you're Italian, etc.

(Here in the Netherlands, someone who calls themselves half-Italian means either "one of my parents came from Italy" or "two of my grandparents came from Italy". Not, "eight of my great-great-grandparents came from Italy" or "I have two grandparents who both were born here, as were their parents and possibly grandparents, but who can trace all their direct ancestors back to having descended from migrants from Italy"))

kuwisdelu said:

I've always found people from other cultures are happy and eager to share their cultures.

But appropriation isn't sharing.

It's taking without respect or thought to how the people from that culture feel.

If you want people to share with you, then you have to approach them politely and respectfully.

(General you.)

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Who exactly does the sharing, Kuwi? One person? 100%? One of my friends, and the best welder I've ever known, is pure-blooded Navajo. If she says I may do/wear this, may I do it? But what if I do so, and other people from her reservation object? What percentage of her people have to give consent for it to be sharing vs. appropriation?

In the case of this girl, there are lots of comments in the article like this:

She looks super cute. And last I check black people didn't own braids. I'm a black women and I must say only a black insecure female would be mad. Signed by another black women

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Does this make it okay? Or does every black woman in the world have to say they're willing to share with this girl?

Brutal Mustang said:

Who exactly does the sharing, Kuwi? One person? 100%? One of my friends, and the best welder I've ever known, is pure-blooded Navajo. If she says I may do/wear this, may I do it? But what if I do so, and other people from her reservation object? What percentage of her people have to give consent for it to be sharing vs. appropriation?

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It really depends, and there is no simple answer to that.

As I said before, context is key.

Did you have something specific in mind?

There will never be perfect agreement over what counts as cultural appropriation, or what is offensive, or what is worth fighting for. Some people will always be offended, and some people will never give a fuck.

But you don't need to always get things right to be respectful and understanding of why these issues are such a big deal. Cultural sensitivity doesn't mean always knowing the right thing to do, or never offending anyone. It simply means exactly what it says: being sensitive to cultural concerns.

Doing something that's racist or offensive isn't the end of the world. If you hurt other people, you try to understand why they are hurt, rather than simply dismiss their feelings as unreasonable.

I don't think that's so much to ask.

Silenia said:

I can't say much about the American culture with any degree of certainty, what with me not being American.

However, I do know that being seen as 'default' or 'standard' does not quite necessarily lead to feeling a lack of culture--at least, outside the USA. (Just see, for example, Italy, where Italians definitely are seen as the standard. They don't feel as though they're lacking a culture to call theirs. Same with the Japanese in Japan, or the Greek in Greece.)

(As an outsider, I would say that the to me visible "American" culture is for a good part "define oneself by where the ancestors came from", and for far longer than would be the case in, for example, most of Europe. But when you try to define yourself by the origins of your ancestors, and part of that is Irish, part is Italian, part is German, part is British, throw in some Spanish, French, etc., none of those cultures are really "yours". Because you're more not-French than you're French, more not-Italian than you're Italian, etc.

(Here in the Netherlands, someone who calls themselves half-Italian means either "one of my parents came from Italy" or "two of my grandparents came from Italy". Not, "eight of my great-great-grandparents came from Italy" or "I have two grandparents who both were born here, as were their parents and possibly grandparents, but who can trace all their direct ancestors back to having descended from migrants from Italy"))

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That's why I focus on Americans, especially ones that are White and Christian, because it seems more a US issue than a general White issue.

kuwisdelu said:

Did you have something specific in mind?

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Nope.

Kitty27 said:

There is nothing wrong with sharing culture. But for us,a people who have repeatedly seen elements of our culture be stolen and copied,yes it is a problem. The issue is that the creators are never acknowledged or given respect.

.

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Everybody deserves respect--and that is what we all should be teaching our children. And, the way we rid ourselves of race prejudice is by full emersion.

Yes, it can be very daunting watching all your great ideas copied by others but, that is the way it is: people mimic what they think is cool. All people do this. Form the beginning of time we have. That is how we have survived. How we climbed up to where we are now.

Eventually, we will see an end to prejudice and injustice—but we wont get there by clutching to what we may perceive as ours, but by giving more than we have so far: and then, by giving even more still.

Of course, it won’t go out with a bang. It will just not be around anymore.

On my street, we do have what Rev. King predicted: kids, playing together Black and White, Hispanic and Asian...and not thinking anything of it. Imagine how much better it will be when those kids have kids.

Neegh said:

Everybody deserves respect--and that is what we all should be teaching our children. And, the way we rid ourselves of race prejudice is by full emersion.

Yes, it can be very daunting watching all your great ideas copied by others but, that is the way it is: people mimic what they think is cool. All people do this. Form the beginning of time we have. That is how we have survived. How we climbed up to where we are now.

Eventually, we will see an end to prejudice and injustice—but we wont get there by clutching to what we may perceive as ours, but by giving more than we have so far: and then, by giving even more still.

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Cultural appropriation does nothing to rid anyone of racial prejudice. Part of the reason it is so harmful is because it tends to promote racial and cultural stereotypes. It actively pushes us further away from the dream of a more egalitarian world. It does nothing to bring us closer to it.

No, we did not survive by letting our culture be stolen and erased. We survived by protecting it, in secret if we had to.

As for "what we may perceive as ours"? There is no perception about it.

A culture belongs to its people. Appropriation of it is theft. And we owe nothing to the people who tried to destroy us.

Lillith1991 said:

It mostly seems to be felt by Americans who happen to be white and Christian. I've never heard any Jewish person say it, though somebody somewhere may have.

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Jewish is just that. Jewish.

'White' on the other hand can be Christian, atheist, half black, Scottish, Italian, and just about anything else. Some white people have a lot of culture. Others, like me, have none, and are labeled as white, even though we are of mixed race.

Same goes for being black, of course.

Brutal Mustang said:

Others, like me, have none, and are labeled as white, even though we are of mixed race.

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How do you identify yourself? How do you want to?

Brutal Mustang said:

Jewish is just that. Jewish.

'White' on the other hand can be Christian, atheist, half black, Scottish, Italian, and just about anything else. Some white people have a lot of culture. Others, like me, have none, and are labeled as white, even though we are of mixed race.

Same goes for being black, of course.

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Here's the thing, most Jews in this country aren't Sephardic or Mizrahi. Most American Jews are European Jews, hence, most Jews in this country ARE white as the person who's both white and christian are. And I'm going to put in an objection right now, I may be half-white essentially. But that doesn't make me white, and I would say most people who are mixed white/any other group are not going to call themselves white unless they are able to pass as white. Acknowledging my mums ancestors are mainly white doesn't make me white myself, just makes her heritage a part of my own.

ETA: Also, what Kuwi said.

kuwisdelu said:

How do you identify yourself? How do you want to?

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I identify as white, because that's what society says I am. I'd rather be identified as mixed, because that's what I am.

Brutal Mustang said:

I identify as white, because that's what society says I am. I'd rather be identified as mixed, because that's what I am.

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Then identify as mixed. I'm mixed too.

I feel like a lot of people of mixed heritage struggle with how to identify, and settle on appropriating what they please.

Because appropriation is easy.

Actually owning an identity? That can be hard. And inconvenient.

It's easy to play in someone else's yard when they have to deal with the garbage that gets left behind, but if you want to share that yard, then you have to take responsibility for it.

Brutal Mustang said:

I identify as white, because that's what society says I am. I'd rather be identified as mixed, because that's what I am.

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Add me as another person who idenifies as mixed, though I idenify as Black just as much. If you want to identify as mixed then do so, whether society thinks you pass as white or not. The older two of my aunt's three half-cambodian kids look less Khmer than her youngest, but that doesn't stop them from identifying as mixed or half-cambodian. That's what they are heritage wise, and they're proud of it.

I do have strangers occasionally ask if I'm part Native American. So I often identify as mixed in those situations. On government forms? I just always check white, because that's what I've always done.

What's funny is, I spent much of my childhood in Central America. I speak fluent Spanish. Because of my Native American characteristics (high cheekbones, black eyes), many people mistake me for Latina. I've even had a few non-English speaking Mexicans swear I was Mexican. Why? Don't know. My accent in Spanish is central American. Maybe they figure I'm from Oaxaca, or something.

So to add to my identity confusion, I have lived awhile in a culture not my own, and can efficiently pass for a member of that culture.

Hair is complicated.

I worked at a youth home years ago, and the black workers did all the little girls' hair the same, whether the girl was black, white or hispanic. Various elaborate braids and lots of barrettes. One of the white workers would get furious at them doing the white girls' hair "black style."

And some of the white workers, myself included, washed all the little girls' hair when giving the daily baths. And then, I am too much all-thumbs to re-do any elaborate hair styling.

So they'd come back in thinking I/we had undone all the little girls' hair and redone it "white style" as retribution.

Which probably was true with my white co-worker mentioned above, but I just didn't know you weren't supposed to take out all the little bands and barrettes and wash the hair every day.

So it all went over my head. Until The Great Hair Fight of 1996.

I think her braids are very cool, but I do hope she has a lot of Black friends (if possible wherever she lives). I hate it when folks take on something that is aesthetic and cool but don't relate to the main culture at all. If she has no way of knowing many Black folks, I'd give her a pass, personally (not that I'm Black, mind you, so that's only FWIW coming from me).

Native American appropriation (and other examples from most cultures) can be very different, btw. Don't wear stuff because it looks cool unless you buy it from Natives made for looks or you might end up wearing something roughly equivalent to the Pope's garb Cool-looking doesn't get you out of that msitake! Same with Rastafarian stuff, etc.

I don't get my hackles up badly about true fashion appropriation -- just mho. Some are grey areas, like African-American women and hair, yeah. I wish it were less of an issue overall with the hair differences, so I would like to see a full melding of the cultures there.

Full disclosure: If I could sport a near-fro like my hair does naturally, I'd appreciate that a whole lot. There's not a chance in hell I'd get away with it, but I hate having to worry about the social unacceptability of my own stupid hair frizz all the time, really.

Actually, I do oil it like many curly-haired Natives used to do, and that works pretty well! Using AA hair products, naturally If there is still NA hair oil around, I don't know about it.

The only thing I can think of along these lines was when my son was going to a British school in Malaysia, and they had National Costume Day. He (aged 10 or so) was thoroughly perplexed by this, and asked the teacher what he should wear. She thought a kangaroo skin and a boomerang would work well.

He didn't have a kangaroo skin, so I let him stay home. He could have worn cricket whites, I suppose, but he didn't have those either.

Or a hat with corks.

But this is a derail. Sorry. It's just that Fruitbat reminded me of one of those "Wha - ?" moments.

I like the cricket whites! That seems exotic enough to me

Oh, I nearly got cornrows once myself, with friends who wore them agreeing that it would be a good look for me (except maybe a problem at work, but screw them). I only didn't because I was afraid I might have to cut my hair off later. It doesn't like anything rough at all, unfortunately.

I did get long extensions back when Lisa Bonet did That was a fun summer, but then they started bugging me too much (too long for our hot summers). Appropriation wasn't something discussed back then much among folks around here, so the big issue about my cornrows would probably have been the racism from the rednecks in the area. Screw them, too.